BFL ASIC Firmware & Hardware, Understanding & Optimization - page 3.

BTC-engineer

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Quote from: BobbyJo on August 28, 2013, 03:50:51 PM

Can we have at least one thread where people can ask serious questions without the constant baiting! There are plenty of threads bashing the manufacturers, so can we have a grown up questions and answers thread without constant bitching? Or is that beyond us?

I also feel sad that this is not possible. Always the same "users" who take over every thread with their unqualified postings.
I think the most serious members know what I mean. I really wonder, why the moderators are not talking any steps to avoid this chaos.

PuertoLibre

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Quote from: Cablez on August 28, 2013, 03:58:07 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

@ BTC-Engineer/Nasser

I don't think you are talking to who you think you are.

Who are we talking to then?

Cablez

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I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...

Quote from: ?? on ??

@ BTC-Engineer/Nasser

I don't think you are talking to who you think you are.

BobbyJo

sr. member

Activity: 358

Merit: 250

Can we have at least one thread where people can ask serious questions without the constant baiting! There are plenty of threads bashing the manufacturers, so can we have a grown up questions and answers thread without constant bitching? Or is that beyond us?

BTC-engineer

sr. member

Activity: 360

Merit: 250

Quote from: BobbyJo on August 28, 2013, 02:24:00 PM

Has anyone tried the fridge trick with a mini single? Mine is hashing at a steady 31 Ghash per sec, so I am reluctant to stop it and play around if it doesnt work? Any idea on the extra perfromance you can expect?

Yes, I've tried this with one of my first 60GH singles running firmware 1.2.6
The starting temperature has a little impact on the initial diagnosis test, but this is only minimal. More important is, that I could not simple always say that as more cool the unit is as more powerful the hashing result is. The reason for this in firmware version 1.2.6 is, that it doesn't help you, when the diagnosis test is calculation wrong results based on wrong extreme starting temperatures. If the engines are clocked too fast and the unit is getting more hot, the HW-error rate is probably much increasing..

So my short advice. Forget it. Try to keep your unit constantly cool, this helps.

BobbyJo

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Has anyone tried the fridge trick with a mini single? Mine is hashing at a steady 31 Ghash per sec, so I am reluctant to stop it and play around if it doesnt work? Any idea on the extra perfromance you can expect?

BTC-engineer

sr. member

Activity: 360

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 27, 2013, 04:12:14 PM

Quote from: 2112 on August 27, 2013, 04:01:27 PM

Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 03:15:14 PM

The current BFL chip has an on die temperature sensor, they just aren't using it. If I had to guess it's a cost issue; it's cheaper to toss a couple 20 cent temperature sensors on the board that it is to properly mux and read 16 temperature diodes.

My guess is that the reason to use external sensors is that the internal ones are too noisy and very inaccurate. The cost is indirect: they can't afford to design the de-noising hardware/software and can't afford to properly characterize and calibrate the internal sensors.

It is actually quite common problem: many SoC chips have on-die temperature sensors but use external ones because otherwise they wouldn't meet the time-to-market goals. This includes even very-well capitalized entities which already have the methodology and the tools available.

I agree, I also think this is the reason why they didn't use this pins.
Anyhow, this pins are not connected on BFL's PCB designs. At least not from reading the jala schematics. I guess the single-sc design is not different in this point.
So no (easy) way to use them in existing BFL products.

@MrTeal: Did you use this pins in your design?

Who ultimately makes the decision whether a certain feature you designed is used or not?

This question can not answered in general. In case of the BFL ASIC or BFL products you have to ask BFL.
The only think I've designed up to now, which is related to the BFL single-sc product is the improved version of the fan plate.

BTC-engineer

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Activity: 360

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Quote from: 2112 on August 27, 2013, 04:01:27 PM

Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 03:15:14 PM

The current BFL chip has an on die temperature sensor, they just aren't using it. If I had to guess it's a cost issue; it's cheaper to toss a couple 20 cent temperature sensors on the board that it is to properly mux and read 16 temperature diodes.

My guess is that the reason to use external sensors is that the internal ones are too noisy and very inaccurate. The cost is indirect: they can't afford to design the de-noising hardware/software and can't afford to properly characterize and calibrate the internal sensors.

It is actually quite common problem: many SoC chips have on-die temperature sensors but use external ones because otherwise they wouldn't meet the time-to-market goals. This includes even very-well capitalized entities which already have the methodology and the tools available.

I agree, I also think this is the reason why they didn't use this pins.
Anyhow, this pins are not connected on BFL's PCB designs. At least not from reading the jala schematics. I guess the single-sc design is not different in this point.
So no (easy) way to use them in existing BFL products.

@MrTeal: Did you use this pins in your design?

2112

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Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 03:15:14 PM

The current BFL chip has an on die temperature sensor, they just aren't using it. If I had to guess it's a cost issue; it's cheaper to toss a couple 20 cent temperature sensors on the board that it is to properly mux and read 16 temperature diodes.

My guess is that the reason to use external sensors is that the internal ones are too noisy and very inaccurate. The cost is indirect: they can't afford to design the de-noising hardware/software and can't afford to properly characterize and calibrate the internal sensors.

It is actually quite common problem: many SoC chips have on-die temperature sensors but use external ones because otherwise they wouldn't meet the time-to-market goals. This includes even very-well capitalized entities which already have the methodology and the tools available.

MrTeal

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Quote from: Red_Wolf_2 on August 27, 2013, 03:24:06 PM

I'm guessing those on-die temp sensors are the pins labelled ADRS0, ADRS1 and ADRS2?

No, those set the chip address (0 to 7) in the SPI chain. The temp diode is ball M8 and M9.

Red_Wolf_2

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Activity: 252

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Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 03:15:14 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 27, 2013, 03:03:10 PM

Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 02:59:23 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 22, 2013, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 22, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Please note that the two reported temperatures from the single-sc are not everything. This values are coming from two sensors, which are somewhere between a 8-ASIC cluster and the +1V regulation for this cluster. They are not in the ASICs or inside the 8-ASIC cluster circuit nor inside the +1V regulation circuit.

Even if you may see only a small temperature increase by changing the fans or even see a decrease by changing the whole setup by e.g. opening the box or something like this, it doesn't mean that the ASIC's or any other important parts are not getting much more hot than they should. Also watch the hardware error rate carefully!

Soon I'm ready to report my results from looking for fan alternatives....

In effect, what you are saying is...the chips are actually hotter than reported. Correct?

Is that a good thing?

Not necessarily. The DC/DC supply generates a significant amount of heat as well, and doesn't have the benefit of the nice heatpiped cooler attached to it. It's possible that the temperature reported from the sensors close to the output inductor could be higher than the die temperature.

Is the next generation (Monarch) going to have a true (die level) temp sensor?

The current BFL chip has an on die temperature sensor, they just aren't using it. If I had to guess it's a cost issue; it's cheaper to toss a couple 20 cent temperature sensors on the board that it is to properly mux and read 16 temperature diodes.

I'm guessing those on-die temp sensors are the pins labelled ADRS0, ADRS1 and ADRS2?

MrTeal

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 27, 2013, 03:03:10 PM

Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 02:59:23 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 22, 2013, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 22, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Please note that the two reported temperatures from the single-sc are not everything. This values are coming from two sensors, which are somewhere between a 8-ASIC cluster and the +1V regulation for this cluster. They are not in the ASICs or inside the 8-ASIC cluster circuit nor inside the +1V regulation circuit.

Even if you may see only a small temperature increase by changing the fans or even see a decrease by changing the whole setup by e.g. opening the box or something like this, it doesn't mean that the ASIC's or any other important parts are not getting much more hot than they should. Also watch the hardware error rate carefully!

Soon I'm ready to report my results from looking for fan alternatives....

In effect, what you are saying is...the chips are actually hotter than reported. Correct?

Is that a good thing?

Not necessarily. The DC/DC supply generates a significant amount of heat as well, and doesn't have the benefit of the nice heatpiped cooler attached to it. It's possible that the temperature reported from the sensors close to the output inductor could be higher than the die temperature.

Is the next generation (Monarch) going to have a true (die level) temp sensor?

The current BFL chip has an on die temperature sensor, they just aren't using it. If I had to guess it's a cost issue; it's cheaper to toss a couple 20 cent temperature sensors on the board that it is to properly mux and read 16 temperature diodes.

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

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Quote from: MrTeal on August 27, 2013, 02:59:23 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 22, 2013, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 22, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Please note that the two reported temperatures from the single-sc are not everything. This values are coming from two sensors, which are somewhere between a 8-ASIC cluster and the +1V regulation for this cluster. They are not in the ASICs or inside the 8-ASIC cluster circuit nor inside the +1V regulation circuit.

Even if you may see only a small temperature increase by changing the fans or even see a decrease by changing the whole setup by e.g. opening the box or something like this, it doesn't mean that the ASIC's or any other important parts are not getting much more hot than they should. Also watch the hardware error rate carefully!

Soon I'm ready to report my results from looking for fan alternatives....

In effect, what you are saying is...the chips are actually hotter than reported. Correct?

Is that a good thing?

Not necessarily. The DC/DC supply generates a significant amount of heat as well, and doesn't have the benefit of the nice heatpiped cooler attached to it. It's possible that the temperature reported from the sensors close to the output inductor could be higher than the die temperature.

Is the next generation (Monarch) going to have a true (die level) temp sensor?

MrTeal

legendary

Activity: 1274

Merit: 1004

Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 22, 2013, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 22, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Please note that the two reported temperatures from the single-sc are not everything. This values are coming from two sensors, which are somewhere between a 8-ASIC cluster and the +1V regulation for this cluster. They are not in the ASICs or inside the 8-ASIC cluster circuit nor inside the +1V regulation circuit.

Even if you may see only a small temperature increase by changing the fans or even see a decrease by changing the whole setup by e.g. opening the box or something like this, it doesn't mean that the ASIC's or any other important parts are not getting much more hot than they should. Also watch the hardware error rate carefully!

Soon I'm ready to report my results from looking for fan alternatives....

In effect, what you are saying is...the chips are actually hotter than reported. Correct?

Is that a good thing?

Not necessarily. The DC/DC supply generates a significant amount of heat as well, and doesn't have the benefit of the nice heatpiped cooler attached to it. It's possible that the temperature reported from the sensors close to the output inductor could be higher than the die temperature.

BTC-engineer

sr. member

Activity: 360

Merit: 250

I'm happy to announce that my friend is producing this improved FAN PLATES and he is selling them on www.bitmit.net.

His account name is wowo and I can confirm that wowe is the official manufacture of my fan plate design.
Look on bitmit for 'FAN PLATE SET for BFL SINGLE'S'. I'm sure you will find it there.

BTC-engineer

sr. member

Activity: 360

Merit: 250

Yesterday I've received the improved version of my single fan plates from production.

Here are some pictures of my singles with the new plates. Air is now flowing much easier.

It's easy to see the difference, when you directly compare it with the standard version.

A friend of mine has made them on his professional CNC-machine based on my design.
I've ask him if he would produce and ship them in very low volume too. And he agreed.

He would even produce them for order volume ONE.
He is thinking about a kit including:
2 x Improved fan plates
2 x fan grills
8 x screws

The plate is made fully compatible to the existing one (same backside profile).

Update: He is selling the sets now on www.bitmit.net
His account name is wowo and I can confirm that he is the official manufacture of my fan plate design.
Look on bitmit for 'FAN PLATE Set for BFL SINGLE'S'. I'm sure you will find it there.

freshzive

sr. member

Activity: 447

Merit: 250

Has anyone swapped the fans in the little single (30ghash) device?

The fan noise is driving me nuts and I'd really like to get something a little quieter. They are running below 60c with stock fans.

Any suggestions on what to purchase?

PuertoLibre

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1003

Quote from: BTC-engineer on August 22, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Please note that the two reported temperatures from the single-sc are not everything. This values are coming from two sensors, which are somewhere between a 8-ASIC cluster and the +1V regulation for this cluster. They are not in the ASICs or inside the 8-ASIC cluster circuit nor inside the +1V regulation circuit.

Even if you may see only a small temperature increase by changing the fans or even see a decrease by changing the whole setup by e.g. opening the box or something like this, it doesn't mean that the ASIC's or any other important parts are not getting much more hot than they should. Also watch the hardware error rate carefully!

Soon I'm ready to report my results from looking for fan alternatives....

In effect, what you are saying is...the chips are actually hotter than reported. Correct?

Is that a good thing?

trichome

newbie

Activity: 48

Merit: 0

Quote from: Cablez on August 22, 2013, 11:50:04 AM

Highest is 68deg in a 76deg room. Not too bad for making it much easier to sit next to.

I dont get this, do you have dedicated hvac to the units?!?! that are right next to you?

Gomeler

hero member

Activity: 697

Merit: 500

Quote from: Cablez on August 22, 2013, 01:36:45 PM

Quote from: Syke on August 22, 2013, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Cablez on August 22, 2013, 11:50:04 AM

Highest is 68deg in a 76deg room. Not too bad for making it much easier to sit next to.

Huh? How are you cooling below ambient with just a fan?

Sorry that was misleading. Two things to add. 1) running caseless and 2) unit sitting next to a house AC vent. (not always on but helps)

Also Celsius vs Fahrenheit?

Topic: BFL ASIC Firmware & Hardware, Understanding & Optimization - page 3. (Read 15660 times)