Binance Seizing Accounts! | Bitcointalksearch.org

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 11, 2021, 04:22:13 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 10, 2021, 10:20:21 PM

Money launderers use money mules. They pay people to act and KYC for them.

That makes sense. So it's possible the Canadian who had their account seized didn't know what they're involved in.
I often see shady offers on the Currency exchange board, where someone is obviously looking for a fall guy to take the risk.

I've also seen offers to buy "old" or "fresh" Bitcoin, and pay a premium. No doubt this is either a direct scam, or someone trying to launder his money. If a naive but otherwise innocent victim falls for that, they become the main suspects.

I speculate yes, for plausible deniability the money mules are not being told everything about the operation. They only deposit, trade, withdraw and keep a certain percentage of the money. This might also be similar in casinos and sportsbooks also, where money mules are told to deposit, gamble, withdraw and keep a certain percentage.

stompix

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 11, 2021, 04:22:13 AM

But still, it's a private company seizing assets without a court order just because some country puts in a request.

You don't need a court order, a prosecutor can issue an order for that too
https://www.ejn-crimjust.europa.eu/ejn/EJN_FichesBelgesResult/EN/501/337/-1
It's confiscation that can't be done without a court order.

And Binance has that also right in their first line in the ToS:

Quote

VI. Termination of Agreement
1. Suspension of Binance Accounts
You agree that Binance shall have the right to immediately suspend your Binance Account (and any accounts beneficially owned by related entities or affiliates), freeze or lock the Digital Assets or funds in all such accounts, and suspend your access to Binance for any reason including if Binance suspects any such accounts to be in violation of these Terms, our Privacy Policy, or any applicable laws and regulations. ~~~~The above account controls may also be applied in the following cases:

The Binance Account is subject to a governmental proceeding, criminal investigation or other pending litigation;
~~
We are required to do so by a court order or command by a regulatory/government authority.

LoyceV

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 10, 2021, 10:20:21 PM

Money launderers use money mules. They pay people to act and KYC for them.

That makes sense. So it's possible the Canadian who had their account seized didn't know what they're involved in.
I often see shady offers on the Currency exchange board, where someone is obviously looking for a fall guy to take the risk.

I've also seen offers to buy "old" or "fresh" Bitcoin, and pay a premium. No doubt this is either a direct scam, or someone trying to launder his money. If a naive but otherwise innocent victim falls for that, they become the main suspects.

Quote from: stompix on November 11, 2021, 01:30:01 AM

There is a small difference between the Dutch Laws being enforced in criminal cases outside the Netherlands and a foreign company cooperating with Dutch agencies in a criminal case, the case itself is similar to requesting a hosting company, a mobile carrier, or whatever other data provider or bank to assist you in a criminal investigation, no company is stupid to refuse unless this would hurt its business a lot more.

But still, it's a private company seizing assets without a court order just because some country puts in a request.

stompix

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:58:25 AM

That's the real question:

Quote from: LoyceV on October 25, 2021, 10:33:43 AM

Did they forget Dutch law means nothing outside the Netherlands?

Note that I have no idea what's "common" in international law enforcement. Maybe it's all just business as usual.

There is a small difference between the Dutch Laws being enforced in criminal cases outside the Netherlands and a foreign company cooperating with Dutch agencies in a criminal case, the case itself is similar to requesting a hosting company, a mobile carrier, or whatever other data provider or bank to assist you in a criminal investigation, no company is stupid to refuse unless this would hurt its business a lot more.

At this point that ~~drug lord~~ trader is not trialed and it's not arrested, that would happen only if the Dutch police would file for an arrest via Interpol or ask for extradition, once he gets sent to Nieuw Vosseveld then the things change.

Bottom line, if you reside in a country that won't hand you over you can be safe, but your assets that are not stored under the same jurisdiction won't be 100%.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 08, 2021, 05:50:25 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:40:55 AM

I guess this is related to Binance accounts being seized, as it's not possible to confiscate real crypto wallets without physical access (which they don't have if they don't know the suspects' identities).

So it looks like that all the rumors and people complaining about this turned out to be true after all, but one thing I don't understand is how could they do that for people who are not Dutch citizens :/
Binance exchange and CZ now proved that they will now do just about anything to survive and avoid ban or sanctions from some countries.

Money launderers use money mules. They pay people to act and KYC for them. It is also possible that those people who had their accounts frozen are only from one very small part of a larger money laundering ring. According to this article, up to 5% is lost from the world GDP to money laundering.

Money laundering activities cost the world 2% to 5% of its GDP.

Determining the actual cost of money laundering to the nations is difficult due to the layering and integration processes funds go through. However, the United Nations believes that the estimated value of money laundering worldwide, according to recent statistics, is between 2% and 5% of the world’s GDP. That’s approximately $800 billion to $2 trillion laundered annually.

Source https://legaljobs.io/blog/money-laundering-statistics/

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 06:40:37 AM

How does that work? Say I register orn.nl and use it to email CZ@Binance. I adjust the Nigerian prince story a bit, and suddenly I'm a government official asking to freeze dkbit98's account and send funds to me?

I don't know exactly all CZ's schemes, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is some Chinese communist party leader story that works just as good if not better than Nigerian prince story.
There are regular police reports here about elderly people who are sending money to unknown people who offered them ''high gains'' for investing in cryptocurrency.
If people are still falling for that stuff and not using their brain, than anything is possible.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 08, 2021, 06:30:50 AM

Form my previous research it appears that Binance first freezes accounts and then you receive email from Dutch authorities.
If you don't reply anything until deadline, Binance will than seize your coins and send them to Dutch officials.

How does that work? Say I register orn.nl and use it to email CZ@Binance. I adjust the Nigerian prince story a bit, and suddenly I'm a government official asking to freeze dkbit98's account and send funds to me?

Just a reminder: "not your keys not your coins"!

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:58:25 AM

I'm curious if they're guilty of doing what they're being accused of: Say you're a ~~Colombian drug lord~~ Canadian citizen, and say your Binance account gets seized, telling you it's about money laundering. Would you publicly complain about this or just move on? I would expect the innocent people to complain, and the criminals to just write it off as "business costs".

I would expect the same, unless we are talking about some small time wannabe drug dealer who is hustling around the corner to survive as a pimp.
Interesting thing is that Binance is still deleting any mention about this topic in their reddit page, typical Chinese heavy censorship stuff.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:58:25 AM

Binance itself is illegally operating in the Netherlands because they didn't register at DNB.

They operated and still operating illegally all over the world and not just in Netherlands, except maybe in US with their .us domain website.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:58:25 AM

I just realize: did they really confiscate the funds? As in: did Binance hand it over to Dutch authorities? Or did they just freeze the accounts until further notice?
If they really handed over funds, that can open up a whole new angle of attack for scammers!

Form my previous research it appears that Binance first freezes accounts and then you receive email from Dutch authorities.
If you don't reply anything until deadline, Binance will than seize your coins and send them to Dutch officials.
It could be different for specific country but anyway I would suggest anyone to stay away from using Binance.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 08, 2021, 05:50:25 AM

So it looks like that all the rumors and people complaining about this turned out to be true after all

I'm curious if they're guilty of doing what they're being accused of: Say you're a ~~Colombian drug lord~~ Canadian citizen, and say your Binance account gets seized, telling you it's about money laundering. Would you publicly complain about this or just move on? I would expect the innocent people to complain, and the criminals to just write it off as "business costs".

Quote from: LoyceV on October 25, 2021, 10:33:43 AM

Did they forget Dutch law means nothing outside the Netherlands?

Note that I have no idea what's "common" in international law enforcement. Maybe it's all just business as usual.

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 08, 2021, 05:50:25 AM

Binance exchange and CZ now proved that they will now do just about anything to survive and avoid ban or sanctions from some countries.

Maybe they're looking to get registered:

Quote from: LoyceV on October 25, 2021, 10:33:43 AM

Binance itself is illegally operating in the Netherlands because they didn't register at DNB.

I just realize: did they really confiscate the funds? As in: did Binance hand it over to Dutch authorities? Or did they just freeze the accounts until further notice?
If they really handed over funds, that can open up a whole new angle of attack for scammers!

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 08, 2021, 05:40:55 AM

I guess this is related to Binance accounts being seized, as it's not possible to confiscate real crypto wallets without physical access (which they don't have if they don't know the suspects' identities).

So it looks like that all the rumors and people complaining about this turned out to be true after all, but one thing I don't understand is how could they do that for people who are not Dutch citizens :/
Binance exchange and CZ now proved that they will now do just about anything to survive and avoid ban or sanctions from some countries.

LoyceV

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In today's (Dutch) news: OM legt beslag op meer dan 25 miljoen euro aan cryptovaluta in witwasonderzoek.

Quote from: Translated summary

Dutch FIOD, CID and prosecution confiscated digital wallets worth over €25M from tens of suspects after investigating money laundering for months.

Some suspects are said to be Dutch, some are not. Not all identities are known.

I guess this is related to Binance accounts being seized, as it's not possible to confiscate real crypto wallets without physical access (which they don't have if they don't know the suspects' identities).

bbc.reporter

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@magneto. I disagree and those statements that centralized exchanges are in their endgame are only presently larping. Do you see what FTX is doing? However, it might be the beginning of the endgame for Binance, I reckon hehehe.

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For all centralized exchanges this is the endgame. Binance is not invicible.

They obviously are going to be comply with regulators especially if they are large because they don't want to lose the ability to operate in these countries.

But this is often at the detriment to users as they are subject to the arbitrary rulings of the courts etc. This is why DeFi is the way forward too - not going to find that sort of issue when your exchange is operated without a central point of failure.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on October 17, 2021, 10:13:32 AM

There are multiple people from Canada, UK, Brazil, and Colombia who reported that Binance seized and frozen their accounts because of Netherlands Tax Investigation, even if they have no connection with Netherland nor they are Dutch citizens.

This is really going to dent their companies reputation and already accounts have being closed for non KYC compliance...things are certainly not going in their favor!

If the Netherlands Tax Investigation is affecting users from other jurisdictions then this is negligence on the part of Binance which should be corrected with immediate effect,why punish people for offenses they did not commit.....

Quote

Binance apparently flagged their accounts for money laundering and criminal activities, and one guy from Canada contacted their support and got this reply with strange future date October 24th.
I can't be sure if this is legit, but I noticed that r/binance reddit moderators are deleting any post connected with this, so it's best to think twice before you use Binance again.

If indeed this is true, Binance was suppose to come out clean over these allegations and not deleting these concerns from its users,trying to hide the bad press this is generating is not going to make things go away, things will become worse....possibly legal battles will what will follow next.

bbc.reporter

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@Darker45. Yes I am serious that crime syndicates use all exchanges to move money across the world. Yes I am serious that being crime syndicates, they can KYC by using fake identities bought from the darknet or pay individuals directly for them to KYC and become their money mules.

Also, do you always trust what people claim on the internet? What if it was a money mule who was trying for a last blow of hope to get back the money? He might also only be a casualty of a crackdown by the Dutch government.

I am arguing from the assumption that the letter from the Dutch government is true. If true, there might be something bigger happening behind this. This is certainly not Binance trying to scam innocent users similar to what some people want to imply.

Darker45

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on October 27, 2021, 11:42:53 PM

@Darker45. Is it going to far to say that exchanges in the cryptospace are possibly growing environments for moving money used for criminality?

No, it's not. But the context of this is that there are more than a handful individuals whose accounts in Binance are suddenly suspended. Some of these accounts have balances smaller than a BTC. And here you are floating the idea that it must have something to do with Colombia being a producer of Cocaine and that Netherlands is one of its biggest receivers.

Do you seriously think that individuals involved in this international cocaine transactions use Binance, a centralized exchange which now requires every single user to undergo KYC? Do you think these users who are talking about lifetime savings in the amount smaller than 1BTC are involved in international drug trades? Come on.

bbc.reporter

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@Darker45. Is it going to far to say that exchanges in the cryptospace are possibly growing environments for moving money used for criminality?

Also, are you implying that it is more possible that Binance is scamming their own users than being pressured by Dutch government to freeze those accounts?

You also say those users who are complaining are from different jurisdictions, can we assume that those users are really from UK and Canada and did not use fake identities?

I am not defending Binance, however, is Binance really scamming their own users to steal their money?

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Quote from: LoyceV on October 25, 2021, 10:33:43 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on October 19, 2021, 08:21:21 PM

For one, the letter which is supposed to be coming from the Dutch authorities, is poorly written.

I wouldn't assume a poorly written letter means it can't be produced by a government.

Perhaps I'm assuming too much or looking too highly at the Dutch government.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on October 25, 2021, 07:38:57 PM

If these claims on Binance are true and if the Dutch government has really been behind this, then we can assume that those accounts are involved in money laundering, drugs trafficking and other forms of financing criminality which used Binance as their exchange of choice.

The Netherlands is also one of the biggest receivers of cocaine produced in Colombia. These claims of lifetime savings being seized are only claims until we can confirm that those people behind them are innocent. Why would Binance seize accounts without good reasons?

I think you are going too far in the list of possibilities explaining what's currently happening. In the first place, this email was not exclusively sent to users in Colombia. Users as far as the UK, Canada, and other countries have also received the same communication.

Why would Binance seize accounts without good reasons? We don't know. But they've been doing that. Perhaps the triggers are simply too sensitive that their good reasons may seem to us not good enough. Perhaps the exchange is overreacting to certain activities detected in some users' accounts.

bbc.reporter

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@LoyceV. That makes the argument stronger that the Netherlands is certainly the largest receiver of cocaine from Colombia and maybe also all other forms of narcotics from all over other countries like Mexican methampetamines. I speculate other exchanges should be receiving letters from the government of the Netherlands.

LoyceV

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on October 25, 2021, 07:38:57 PM

The Netherlands is also one of the biggest receivers of cocaine produced in Colombia.

That's because the Port of Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. That makes the Netherlands the largest receiver of anything.

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