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Topic: BIP1xx DynamicMaxBlockSize - page 2. (Read 4259 times)

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
September 01, 2015, 11:19:14 PM
#37
Every system has operational parameters.  The 1MB block size is not an 'artificial cap' any more than a 32-bit integer in a compiler is.  It is a design decision which makes a system work in a certain way.  The 1MB block size like any other such parameter has both pros and cons.  The 21x10^6 money supply is another such parameter and it likewise has certain pros and certain cons depending on one's taste.

artificial is a meaningless adjective but a cap is exactly what it is.

Each parameter in a system has a certain meaning based on its function. 
Yes it may have pros and cons, but it is a cap.  That's what it does by its very nature.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1011
September 01, 2015, 10:13:56 PM
#36
Ugly though it may seem, I currently believe the can-kicking BIP101 proposal is the best under consideration.

The reason why it seems ugly is because it involves kicking the metaphorical can into the upper atmosphere, not simply kicking it out of sight.

BIP101 is the most aggressive expansion schedule (well, except for the previous revision of BIP101 that advocated 20 MB + 2 yearly doublings). Not my definition of kicking the can, you need to be able to find the can when it's the right time to pick it up again....

Earlier in draft (before becoming a BIP) it was 20 MB + 50%/year (125% per two years).

I would happily support a similar proposal with different parameters if the parameters were well-justified and it grew to have more support than BIP101.

One idea: Is it possible to set up (or does there exist) a platform allowing people to bet on the state of technology 20 years from now?  If there were a lot of money in the pot predicting slower growth than BIP101 needs then you could make a strong case for a more conservative proposal.
member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
September 01, 2015, 08:16:48 PM
#35
I think 1MB is good. Keeps the cup-of-coffee-buyers and third-world-small-bag-of-rice-purchaser off the blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
September 01, 2015, 08:00:47 PM
#34
Ugly though it may seem, I currently believe the can-kicking BIP101 proposal is the best under consideration.

The reason why it seems ugly is because it involves kicking the metaphorical can into the upper atmosphere, not simply kicking it out of sight.

BIP101 is the most aggressive expansion schedule (well, except for the previous revision of BIP101 that advocated 20 MB + 2 yearly doublings). Not my definition of kicking the can, you need to be able to find the can when it's the right time to pick it up again....
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 278
September 01, 2015, 07:09:51 PM
#33
The dynamic block size limit should not mean the block size go one way up only. The block size soft limit can be 2-3 times of the median of last 10,000 blocks. This limit can be breached to allow more transactions, but miner will get penalty of fees if they allow the block size to be over. That is similar to Monero (coin)

What's wrong if mempool is full and Tx volume demands more space in blocks ?
legendary
Activity: 1662
Merit: 1050
August 30, 2015, 09:21:44 AM
#32
BIP 1xx is leading over BIP 101!!! That's incredible Roll Eyes

p.s. ah I know those sock-puppet theories... every BIP backer have them.
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
August 29, 2015, 09:59:19 PM
#31
The dynamic block size limit should not mean the block size go one way up only. The block size soft limit can be 2-3 times of the median of last 10,000 blocks. This limit can be breached to allow more transactions, but miner will get penalty of fees if they allow the block size to be over. That is similar to Monero (coin)
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
August 29, 2015, 09:33:13 PM
#30
I see your argument as being:  [snip]

No, my argument is: Let the market decide which transactions get in.  Don't have an artificial cap that prevents that transactional market from operating.  There will be other technological solutions that trim the fat, but let the benefits of those solutions be the reason that people move some transactions off the main chain. Don't force them out.

There is a reason why the artificial cap exists and that is because the "free market" as you so describes it does not account of the security of the system. To quote:

The reason this is important is some not all miners have an interest in creating artificial scarcity. In the case of a couple they simply couldn't operate above a certain limit. Others could not particularly care.

As technology improves, bigger actors get into the game and the inherent economies of scale take place, orphan risk from including too many transactions will necessarily diminish and large miners will necessarily have an advantage and an ability to drive smaller ones out of business in a precipitated way. This is concerning because while mining consolidating into enormous corporations is by all account an obvious outcome, we cannot afford for the same for nodes.

It helps to think of it as a tragedy of the commons: absent of a blocksize it will eventually become in the miner's best interest to include as many transactions as possible in their blocks and consequently restricting access to governance of the network by way of bloating the blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
August 29, 2015, 09:31:16 PM
#29
I see your argument as being:  [snip]

No, my argument is: Let the market decide which transactions get in.  Don't have an artificial cap that prevents that transactional market from operating.  There will be other technological solutions that trim the fat, but let the benefits of those solutions be the reason that people move some transactions off the main chain. Don't force them out.

Ignoring for a moment the bass-ackwards and nonsensical assertion that failing to relaxing the transaction rate so that it can come under strain 'prevents the transcriptional market from operating'...

Every system has operational parameters.  The 1MB block size is not an 'artificial cap' any more than a 32-bit integer in a compiler is.  It is a design decision which makes a system work in a certain way.  The 1MB block size like any other such parameter has both pros and cons.  The 21x10^6 money supply is another such parameter and it likewise has certain pros and certain cons depending on one's taste.

Like I said in the snipped, I'm more than happy to see the blockchain forked and 'let the market decide.'

hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500
August 29, 2015, 09:13:47 PM
#28
I see your argument as being:  [snip]

No, my argument is: Let the market decide which transactions get in.  Don't have an artificial cap that prevents that transactional market from operating.  There will be other technological solutions that trim the fat, but let the benefits of those solutions be the reason that people move some transactions off the main chain. Don't force them out.
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
August 29, 2015, 07:28:58 PM
#27
The obvious course of action is to do nothing until it is needed which would probably be years from now.

Two years ago the average block size was 120k.  One year ago it was 220k.  Now it is 400k.  That shows nearly a doubling of block size per year.  And that's average block size - the peaks are of course much higher.  This kind of change should not be rolled out at the last minute.  If the uncertainty of the block size cap change isn't hurting adoption now, it will be soon.

The blocks are chock full of trivial nonsense transaction which don't belong there.  When each on-chain transaction represents thousands of off-chain coffee purchases and a few $100,000+ (equiv) transactions from people/entities balancing their risk and it still fills up and push fees into the start of the area that banks charge for (much lesser) service, then we start to need a solution to what is currently a non-problem.  That is why I say 'years'.

Of course you and I dis-agree about where the value of Bitcoin lies.  I see your argument as being:  "Oh no!  The cake I bake every night is almost gone by the morning because the mice are eating it.  Need to start baking bigger cakes."  My argument is that the mice are shitting all over the house and tearing up the pillows and there is no reason to cater to them.  I actually don't want the little buggers to starve to death and I have an infinite supply of food with a little development work so I could let them feed to their heart's content outdoors.

The trouble with your argument (as I see it) is that bloating the blockchain to support all uses for everything on-chain is destined to destroy the solution completely as a support mechanism for nearly infinite subordinate chains.  That is why I will fight with all my effort to avoid this.

I cannot deny that some of the people who hold more BTC than I and/or who were in the game longer than I simply see things differently.  That is why I strongly favor simply forking the blockchain itself (via XT or dynamic adjustments or whatever) and letting both sides just move forward with their own philosophies.

hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500
August 29, 2015, 06:03:12 PM
#26
The obvious course of action is to do nothing until it is needed which would probably be years from now.

Two years ago the average block size was 120k.  One year ago it was 220k.  Now it is 400k.  That shows nearly a doubling of block size per year.  And that's average block size - the peaks are of course much higher.  This kind of change should not be rolled out at the last minute.  If the uncertainty of the block size cap change isn't hurting adoption now, it will be soon.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1011
August 29, 2015, 07:16:20 AM
#25
I dislike the whole approach of BIP1xx.  The proposal(s) attempt to set a block size limit by considering first and foremost the demand for block space.  Centralisation concerns are completely neglected for the sake of capacity.

The problem is not that blocks are being filled, it is that blocks are being filled despite the fact that today's technology can accommodate a well-decentralised network with larger blocks.  We don't have an infinity of resources that we can just dynamically raise the block size limit into, but we do have some resources which the 1MB limit prevents us from employing.


Perhaps there needs to be a balance struck somewhere between BIP1xx and BIP100.  BIP1xx only considers the demand for block space, but BIP100 only considers what benefits the miners and not the network as a whole.  The prospect of having an entity choose a variable that primarily benefits them still doesn't sit well with me, when we can define it algorithmically like we do with everything else.  BIP100 simply places too much emphasis and power on one side.

To save all the arguing, the compromise we should all agree on is to find a solution that splits the demand for block space and the demand for decentralisation 50/50.  Can we at least agree on that much?  Something that maintains an equilibrium between resources, incentive and capacity.  That way almost everyone gets what they want.  Almost.  I know some people think the demand for block space shouldn't be considered at all and that centralisation concerns are the only thing that's important, but clearly they're not going to budge on that, so frankly they can get left behind if they aren't willing to make even the slightest concessions.  One way or another, the blocksize is increasing, it's just agreeing on how to implement it in a stable way.

Firstly, nice post.  You've helped me focus a bit better on the issues.

"demand for block space" and "decentralisation" are necessarily measured on different scales.  As a result, there is no real "50/50" here.

As far as deriving a balance algorithmically goes, notice that such an algorithm must have as inputs "block space demand" and "level of decentralisation".  Bitcoin can easily fathom the first but has no way of measuring the second.  As far as Bitcoin knows, the entire Bitcoin system to date could be nothing more than a simulation on a single machine.  Bitcoin has to be told about this "decentralisation" thing by us humans, either by setting core parameters (kicking the can) or setting up some kind of voting.

Of course, humans respond to incentives.  If care is not taken to make sure these incentives align with choosing/voting good parameters, Bitcoin will degrade in the long term.  Miner voting is a fairly clever attempt because miners typically do have an incentive to help Bitcoin succeed.  Unfortunately, each miner is also driven to control as large a piece of the transaction-fee pie as they can, throwing the quality of the data gathered through voting into question.

I've tried to think of some way to have humans vote/bet on good block size limits where their financial incentives are more clearly aligned with Bitcoin's long-term health (like provably locking up bitcoins for 10 years to vote) but have had no real success yet.  Ugly though it may seem, I currently believe the can-kicking BIP101 proposal is the best under consideration.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
August 29, 2015, 05:51:05 AM
#24
I dislike the whole approach of BIP1xx.  The proposal(s) attempt to set a block size limit by considering first and foremost the demand for block space.  Centralisation concerns are completely neglected for the sake of capacity.

The problem is not that blocks are being filled, it is that blocks are being filled despite the fact that today's technology can accommodate a well-decentralised network with larger blocks.  We don't have an infinity of resources that we can just dynamically raise the block size limit into, but we do have some resources which the 1MB limit prevents us from employing.


Perhaps there needs to be a balance struck somewhere between BIP1xx and BIP100.  BIP1xx only considers the demand for block space, but BIP100 only considers what benefits the miners and not the network as a whole.  The prospect of having an entity choose a variable that primarily benefits them still doesn't sit well with me, when we can define it algorithmically like we do with everything else.  BIP100, as it currently stands, simply places too much emphasis and power on one side.

To save all the arguing, the compromise we should all agree on is to find a solution that splits the demand for block space and the demand for decentralisation 50/50.  Can we at least agree on that much?  Something that maintains an equilibrium between resources, incentive and capacity.  That way almost everyone gets what they want.  Almost.  I know some people think the demand for block space shouldn't be considered at all and that centralisation concerns are the only thing that's important, but clearly they're not going to budge on that, so frankly they can get left behind if they aren't willing to make even the slightest concessions.  One way or another, the blocksize is increasing, it's just agreeing on how to implement it in a stable way.
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
August 28, 2015, 09:26:08 PM
#23
Bitcoin is not like linux, which can have different flavor. It is a medium of exchange and a medium of exchange requires trust. If bitcoin splits, that would severely hamper that trust.

That is simply not true in my case.  What is 'hampering trust' in my mind is the 'Free Shit Nation' gaggle of hangers-on who demand free transactions that are subsidized by others because that is how life has always worked for them.  I would love to wave them goodbye and wish them the best on their bloatchain fork then be able to move forward building a rock solid and truly distributed foundation which would have a multitude of uses.  Including, ironically, many opportunities for the 'Free Shit Minions' to get exactly what they are after.
Seems you support the bidding of Tx fee to subsidize miners while block subsidy goes down. In that case, Proposal 2 of BIP 1xx might interest you.

Personally, I am undecided about this. Because one of the reason many people got attracted towards bitcoin was very cheap or almost no transfer cost. For those who thinks the same may like Proposal 1 of BIP 1xx.

The obvious course of action is to do nothing until it is needed which would probably be years from now.  All these hysterics about the block size are a fabricated PR stunt.  A surprisingly effective one at that.

Miners are almost as big a problem as the no-fee Free Shit Nation people and there is an association which is beyond the scope of this note.  I hope that the skilled people in the community make the best of this manufactured 'crisis' and get rid of that problem as well by adjusting the POW scheme.  I'm not holding my breath for that though.

legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1011
August 28, 2015, 08:55:43 PM
#22
I dislike the whole approach of BIP1xx.  The proposal(s) attempt to set a block size limit by considering first and foremost the demand for block space.  Centralisation concerns are completely neglected for the sake of capacity.

The problem is not that blocks are being filled, it is that blocks are being filled despite the fact that today's technology can accommodate a well-decentralised network with larger blocks.  We don't have an infinity of resources that we can just dynamically raise the block size limit into, but we do have some resources which the 1MB limit prevents us from employing.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
August 28, 2015, 05:52:47 PM
#21
Where were you a month ago when someone was spamming transactions? Don't give me BS about a "stress test" it was most definitely a spam attack. It caused 80000 unconfirmed txs, many of them legitimate.

well, if people don't emit bitcoin without fees ... at the first step  Roll Eyes
staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
August 28, 2015, 05:49:41 PM
#20
With BIP 101, spammers can continue to spam blocks and know for certain that for a few years they can both start another debate and the cost of continuous spam does not change that much. With BIP 1xx, the cost of spamming full blocks will double every two weeks, thus making it incredibly expensive to maintain a prolonged spam attack on Bitcoin. With the same amount of money, a spam attack would last a shorter amount of time if BIP 1xx was implemented than with BIP 101.

It sounds like you have the idea of spamming blocks backwards.  Spammers can't block legitimate transactions - the best they can hope is to delay no-fee transactions.  A block isn't filled with the first transactions that a miner sees - the miner decides which transactions to include, based on the transaction size/priority/fee.
Those spam transactions can delay low fee transactions for a long time.

This is not what the block size cap is there to combat.  The anti-spam limit of 1MB is there to prevent a spammer from filling the hard drives of every node operator.  This is why we're not discussing moving to unlimited block size.

With BIP 101, there is no more incentive for spammers to attack than there is right now - and there has never been a spam attack in the history of Bitcoin.
Where were you a month ago when someone was spamming transactions? Don't give me BS about a "stress test" it was most definitely a spam attack. It caused 80000 unconfirmed txs, many of them legitimate.

With BIP 1xx, there is absolutely something that a motivated spammer could do - they could directly control the cap, moving it higher and higher.  As I said previously though, that's not really what I worry about.  I worry about the reverse.  Miners can truncate blocks, and directly control how much other miners can include in their blocks.  It allows crippling of the open-market transaction processing that we now have.  Why abdicate this to the miners - a group that has previously advocated for smaller blocks with the stated rationale that it may force higher transaction fees?  It is the fox guarding the henhouse.

And no, miners can't do this right now.  Yes, they can control their own blocks, but all it takes is any one miner to allow those other transactions in with small/no fee.  This is a check against the monopoly that could result from BIP 1xx.

BIP 1xx is union rules for miners.  Those rogue miners who will process all your low-fee transactions?  They could be branded scabs, and the union masters could shrink the block size so far that the transaction fees are forced higher regardless of the remaining miners.
While that is possible, you need to see it the way that miners see it and do some cost-benefit analysis.

Preventing transactions could cause several negative outcomes for miners. They would be losing out on transaction fees if a fee market doesn't develop. If the blocksize goes too low or fees go too high, people might just stop using Bitcoin causing the price to drop and thus miners are losing money. An increased backlog of transactions can negatively impact the full node by filling its mempool to the point that the node just crashes.

The only positive that could come out of causing small blocksizes would be the possibility of a fee market, which compared to the risks, is not something they would attempt with their already small profit margins

Also, if you think that miners would do this, then why are so many of them voting for 8 MB blocks?

A solution to this problem you present would be to create a lower bound on the blocksize limit. It would be that the maximum blocksize cannot go any lower than say 1 MB (or any other number you like).
hero member
Activity: 493
Merit: 500
August 28, 2015, 05:33:04 PM
#19
With BIP 101, spammers can continue to spam blocks and know for certain that for a few years they can both start another debate and the cost of continuous spam does not change that much. With BIP 1xx, the cost of spamming full blocks will double every two weeks, thus making it incredibly expensive to maintain a prolonged spam attack on Bitcoin. With the same amount of money, a spam attack would last a shorter amount of time if BIP 1xx was implemented than with BIP 101.

It sounds like you have the idea of spamming blocks backwards.  Spammers can't block legitimate transactions - the best they can hope is to delay no-fee transactions.  A block isn't filled with the first transactions that a miner sees - the miner decides which transactions to include, based on the transaction size/priority/fee.

This is not what the block size cap is there to combat.  The anti-spam limit of 1MB is there to prevent a spammer from filling the hard drives of every node operator.  This is why we're not discussing moving to unlimited block size.

With BIP 101, there is no more incentive for spammers to attack than there is right now - and there has never been a spam attack in the history of Bitcoin.

With BIP 1xx, there is absolutely something that a motivated spammer could do - they could directly control the cap, moving it higher and higher.  As I said previously though, that's not really what I worry about.  I worry about the reverse.  Miners can truncate blocks, and directly control how much other miners can include in their blocks.  It allows crippling of the open-market transaction processing that we now have.  Why abdicate this to the miners - a group that has previously advocated for smaller blocks with the stated rationale that it may force higher transaction fees?  It is the fox guarding the henhouse.

And no, miners can't do this right now.  Yes, they can control their own blocks, but all it takes is any one miner to allow those other transactions in with small/no fee.  This is a check against the monopoly that could result from BIP 1xx.

BIP 1xx is union rules for miners.  Those rogue miners who will process all your low-fee transactions?  They could be branded scabs, and the union masters could shrink the block size so far that the transaction fees are forced higher regardless of the remaining miners.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
August 28, 2015, 05:26:57 PM
#18
Talks about BIP's are finally converging, and scaling is also a nice option... I voted no preference anyways. I think BIP 100 and 101 have a bit to learn about each other Wink The virtue is in the middle. And maybe for the future we can think of scaling solutions. Or even now! Who knows... But scaling has some visible flaws as seen on this thread Wink Also, BIP100 allows enough scalability...
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