Topic: Bisq 1 Vs Bisq 2 help? (Read 518 times)

Apart from kycnotme & bitlist is there any more sites like these that list all popular kyc free services on the internet and if the service is not p2p like bisq and does not require you to install/software app on your computer & does not require your computer connected to the internet 24/7 like bisq, has there been cases of accounts being frozen in the past at these kyc free services apart from bisq listed on these sites?

Yes indeed, I should have made that clear but it only works with LN invoices at my knowledge.
I don't have a lot of experience with Robosats, so my opinion may be a bit incomplete, but I found the liquidity better than with Bisq at the same period (but it was small amounts anyway). It was done very fast. On the other hand, it has the disadvantage of being centralised, unlike Bisq...

I think Robosats or Peach are much more beginner-friendly than Bisq, I think.
I'd recommended Bisq to people I knew who were just starting out and looking for P2P solutions, but they all told me it was too ‘messy’ or too complicated. I never got the same feedback when I recommended Peach.

I have never tried Robosats. Isn't it exclusively for the exchange of bitcoin over the Lightning Network to fiat and vice versa? If so, it might confuse the OP who would now also have to learn how to navigate the Lightning Network and its uniqueness.

What's the liquidity like on Robosats, and do you find it easier to use than Bisq? 

I agree with the answer above, Peach Bitcoin is very good, I never had a single issue using it. If you have any question, their admins are very active in their official Telegram group.
Robosats is cool too, but I have less used it than Peach.

Kycnotme is a nice website, you can also visit BitList if you want to see other available options: https://bitlist.co/ . The list and informations are kept up to date by reputable members of our forum

Okay cheers for your helpful replies 

No. I said the latter, not the former.

You are mixing terms again. Bisq is decentralized on the 1st, 10th, or hundred day you are using it. The time lock kicks in after x days to protect each side of a trade. How else would you finalize a transaction that the other party doesn't want to approve or agree to? Would you prefer to have your bitcoin locked for a year, five years, forever, and never have them returned to you?

I have already mentioned eXch. I use them for crypto to crypto exchanges. Peach Bitcoin is a mobile app. You can try that if you want. It's KYC-free if you exchange up to 1000CHF a day. For other solutions, check https://kycnot.me/?t=exchange.

When you say should be the latter, this means I can for example use 0.2 btc as deposit to scam the buyer or seller 1 btc or $50k and in return I lose my 0.2btc?

Yeah I say 20 days decentralized only because you mentioned after 20 days it goes to a wallet address that Bisq controls meaning its lost its decentralization status when there is 'control' by 'someone else' other than the buyer or seller.

Do you know the the next best alternative to Bisq where you don't need a computer to run it 24/7? A service that has not been affected by the global cyber outage today. Centralized services like CrowdStrike that looks like it has 1 person that can cause a global problem is madness.

It wouldn't make sense if it didn't. I believe the user settings are saved separately in a file on your computer. This should migrate automatically or at least give you a manual option to do it.

It should be the latter, otherwise scammers would have an incentive to scam if they only lose a bit of their bitcoin but are able to receive a more significant sum in fiat.

You are not buying anything on CMC. It's just listing information. I don't know if BSQ is listed there or not. It doesn't really matter. You can buy it on Bisq. I am sure there is an explanation on the Bisq website as to why they created BSQ. It's probably related to the funding of the entire operation and the people who work with and for the exchange.

Why 20 mins? You were probably trying to say 20 days, not mins. It's decentralized all of the time. The time-locked transactions don't affect BISQ's decentralized nature. It's a mechanism to protect buyers and sellers. A normal trade shouldn't take 10 or 20 days to confirm. What would you use instead of the security deposits that is safer and more efficient?

Buy and sell orders are only visible if you are online and connected. If you go offline, the order disappears from the order book until you come back.

So I can buy BSQ tokens to increase my reputation score on Bisq2? Where can I buy BSQ tokens?

There's a reply earlier that Bisq1 shows stats of the trader like a score/review on their profile correct?

That's correct.

That's a problematic situation, but they would still need to make a security deposit in bitcoin. The security deposit is an incentive to conduct yourself in a fair manner because if you don't, you lose it. It has to be high enough and represent a significant loss if it gets taken away from you.

You will see stats next to their profile name showing their reputation.

Whoever doesn't stick to the agreed terms will most probably lose their security deposit.

The seller would lose both the 1 BTC + the 0.2 BTC from the security deposit. Therefore, the scammer losses more than what they get. The scam wasn't worth it.

Yes.

They are associated to Bisq in some way.

I don't know.

It's more expensive to trade on Bisq than on CEXs. You can pay the trading fees in BTC or BSQ. The amounts can be found here. You will pay 0.15% as a maker or 1.15% as a taker if you use BTC. If you use BSQ, you will pay 0.075% as a maker or 0.575% as a taker.

That's hard to say, but I wouldn't expect huge liquidity. I don't know how accurate these numbers on CoinGecko are. I think there are more precise stats in the Bisq app. If someone who needs 1000 BTC sees you offer, they might take it. However, you might also sell only a portion of it in several smaller trades.

Bisq (the exchange) doesn't do anything with your coins. Their history depend entirely on the owners of the bitcoin. If a CEX finds a connection to something they don't like, they can freeze your money or ask you to submit certain documents or explain the source/origin. Something like that is always possible.

China banned the business of mining bitcoin. It didn't ban the software itself. Mining pools aren't miners that require huge amounts of electricity to operate. They are servers that you connect to and direct the hashrate of your ASICs to.

Only bitcoin is used for security deposits, not fiat or other cryptocurrencies. Both you and the buyer would need to provide an extra 20% in BTC on top of the trading amount. If that amount is 1 BTC, both of you would have to lock away 0.2 BTC as security deposits.   

You have 20 days to settle the trade whose conditions you both agreed to. If that means that you will sell 1 BTC for $50.000, then that's rate that will be used. It's in both of your interests to settle the trade asap so as not to get affected by the volatility. Trusted traders will do that.

You can back out of a trade at any time before the swap process is initiated. Once it is, it goes without saying that you have accepted the rate.

Most probably, yes. If I am the buyer and I have paid you the $50k we both agreed on, and you said, I am not happy with that and I want $55k or $60k, then that's not the deal we made, is it? I would object to that and most probably the arbitrator would agree with me if it came to that. It's you who didn't respect your end of the deal, so you are paying the penalty. 

Forget about the signatures if that is confusing you. The signatures are needed for the security deposits and the traded BTC to unlock and reach the target destinations. In your example, they are needed for the 1 BTC to reach the buyer and for the 0.2 BTC security deposits to be returned to you and the other party. The fiat is never locked in security deposits because the buyer pays the seller directly via bank, e-wallet, or some other means.

Based on the evidence that both sides provide. The arbitrator would contact both sides and talk to them. They will surely ask for evidence. If the buyer says I paid the $50k, they will have to prove it. If the seller says I didn't receive anything or I received a smaller sum than what we agreed to, the seller would have to prove it. Don't ask me how they do it, that's a question for the arbitrators.

They are humans. Each trade has market maker and market taker fees. I assume they get paid from that pool.


Bisq has a very detailed FAQ section that you can access here:
https://bisq.wiki/Frequently_asked_questions

There is also a Beginners guide here:
https://bisq.network/getting-started/

Alright, what I am still confused on is the Chinese Mining Pools. China banned Bitcoin & Bitcoin Mining in its country so how do Chinese Mining Pools still exist, are these pools located in China

Okay lets use an Example of Bisq Trading for better understanding: I am Seller that have 1 BTC for sale for $50k current market price ask. The buyer likes to buy 1 BTC at current market price too at $50k. So me as a seller has to put up 20% deposit that is 0.2btc and buyer also has to put up $10k deposit. Both of these deposits go into a 2/2 multisig address, question is it Fiat Cash or stablecoins from buyer that goes into this multisig address? Then we have 20 days remaining to settle the balances on both sides that is 0.8btc and $40k regardless of what happens to the btc market price during that time? So for example during those 20 days if bitcoin market price goes to $1millon per btc I have to sell at $50k to the buyer and vice versa if bitcoin price crashes to $1 per btc the buyer has to pay $50k for the btc otherwise either seller or buyer lose their deposit after 20 days you mean? So for example if I refuse to sell my 1btc for $50k then the buyer gets my 0.2btc deposit after 20 days? However you said for any Bisq trade to start the buyer has to submit their key/signature 1st meaning they sent the $40k outstanding balance to the seller and if the seller refuses to sell transfer the remaining 0.8btc after receiving the $40k cash then the seller just loses 0.2 btc for $40k you mean while the buyer gets 0.2btc and his $10k deposit back?

After 20 days the deposits goes to an address that Bisq controls, controlled by Bots or Human Bisq employees and at this stage after 20days both buyer and seller lose control over the 2 keys and now the deposits are in Bisq control?

How does the Arbitrator decide who is liable out of the buyer & seller when you said the buyer has to submit the signature 1st? If buyer does not submit signature 1st then buyer is liable loses deposit and if seller does not submit signature after buyer submits signature then seller loses deposit? However how does the Arbitrator determine whether the buyer has sent $40k or $4 to the seller? How does the Arbitrator verify fiat cash transfers as fiat is not on the blockchain that cannot be publicly verified, with bitcoin if seller sends 0.08 btc instead of 0.8btc to cheat buyer then btc transactions can easily be publicly verified and checked whether this is true on the the btc blockchain making the Arbitrator job easy to check btc transfers however what about fiat cash transfers where the buyer could have sent $4 instead of $40k to cheat the seller?

Bisq Escrows/Middlemen, Bisq wallet address that bisq controls, the mediator and the Arbitrator, are they all humans working for Bisq that do this as kind volunteering work otherwise what are the Bisq fees for using these services and what are the fees for transactions leaving & entering the 2/2 multisig address?

Nope, bisq2 is a successor ^[1],rather than the  beta of bisq.  bisq2 has been developed from the scratch and right now has  the singular trading protocol  namely Bisq Easy which is based on the reputation of traders involved. To get reputation score users has several options, the most effective one is to burn purchased BSQ tokens ( which are nothing more than colored BTC).

On the other hand, the trading on bisq is based on collateral principle - users must allocate the security deposit to be eligible to trade.

It is envisage that when fully developed bisq2 will have the following trading protocols - Bisq Easy , Bisq Multisig, Submarine Swaps, Liquid Submarine Swaps, Liquid Multisig, Bisq Lightning, Liquid Swaps, BSQ Swaps, Monero Swaps. At that:



Below is the bisq trading dashboard on my machine:


P.S. Sometimes I also trade using bisq2  


1. https://bisq.wiki/Bisq_2#Main_differences_for_BTC_buyers2

2. https://bisq.wiki/Main_Page






  

We have already had a scenario where the Chinese government expelled their miners and banned them from mining bitcoin in China. Most of them relocated their machines to other countries and resumed work from there or closed up shop. I understand your concern, and one could say that mining is centralized around a few countries. But miners mine where the electricity is cheap and where they are welcome. They prefer locations that are friendly to their operations and where they can easy get permits. Don't confuse mining pools with actual miners and mining companies. Miners (the physical machines) aren't as present in China as they were before the ban. They are located elsewhere. Most miners operate in the US, Russia, Kazakhstan, Canada, etc. Many big mining pools are located in China. But you don't have to have your miners physically located in the same country whose pool you are using. It's perfectly fine for US miners to use Chinese mining pools.   

The cheaper the electricity, the lower the investment for miners. They prefer locations with the cheapest electricity.

The requirements to run a node are supposed to be relatively low and tempting to make the network as decentralized as possible. Mining bitcoin, though, is a completely different ball game. Bitcoin's mining difficulty constantly adjusts based on the total amount of hashrate devoted to mining. The more computational power is used to mine, the greater the requirements. But that system is the same for me and you. It's fair. Buy the same equipment that I use and we will both have around the same chance to mine.

Let's not bring CBDC's into the discussion. We are already in off-topic territory talking about mining in a discussion that is supposed to be about Bisq. I am not in favor of more regulation. Regulation only means more control, more taxes, stricter rules, and less freedom for the end-users.

When you trade on Bisq, both you and the other party involved in the trade are required to send a security deposit. This deposit goes into a 2/2 multisig address that is time-locked. If the trade doesn't complete within 20 days, the coins move to an address Bisq controls. You hold one key, the other party holds the second. Bisq escrows or middlemen don't hold any keys. They don't control your money and can't steal it from you. When the BTC buyer sends you the payment for your coins,  they submit the first signature to unlock access to the funds. When you confirm that you received the money, you submit the second signature. After that, the bitcoin is released to the buyer and each party receives their security deposits back. The security deposit is like a guarantee that no one will try to cheat and that they will be honest. It can be 10%, 20%, or whatever percentage of the deal.

If one of the parties isn't satisfied with the trade, they won't provide their signature. In that case, there will be a dispute and a mediator will be brought in who suggests what should be done. The mediator can't force anything, they can only make suggestions. If both parties agree, they will sign their transactions and finish the trade. If they don't agree, an arbitrator is called. They will make the final decision on the outcome of the trade. The honest party will then be paid using the money that was moved from the time-locked 2/2 multisig address to a Bisq address and the cheater gets nothing. As you can see, it's not worth it trying to cheat. You don't just lose the coins you wanted to steal, you will also lose your security deposit.

I see on google that Bitcoin Nodes scattered around the globe evenly however bitcoin miners hashrate are mostly based in China & USA. Is bitcoin mining truly decentralized if most of the btc miners are in these 2 countries only, what if those Governments of those countries take over the mining operations/pools in those countries and those governments choose which blocks to mine or reject blocks or governments use their quantum computers to get the hashrate so high that only the governments can mine bitcoin & nobody else?

What about countries where electricity is cheaper than other countries, the countries with the cheaper electricity has the advantage over mining? Decentralization means its fair for everyone involved in the blockchain ecosystem or just matters to the end crypto user?

There's definitely an Imbalance in hardware requirements between running a bitcoin node & to mine bitcoin, in the early days of bitcoin it was easy to mine btc like it was running a node Can hardware minimum system spec requirements imbalances does not make it fairly decentralized right?

The crypto Industry should be regulated and companies misleading crypto users by using the word DEX or De-Fi should be fined or are the regulators purposely allowing such companies to get away with DEX De-Fi status so the old financial system can quietly migrate to these so called DEXs & De-Fi without crypto users noticing of the takeover and these Decentralized services will be used for their upcoming CBDC's & people will be sold on the idea that CBDC's are decentralized to fool the people to adopt it?

Finally I am confused on P2P services. You say P2P is decentralized, just 2 nodes interacting with each other no middleman or 3rd party however are Bisq users required to use Escrow service who is the 3rd party middleman who can freeze your coins or money like what Binance can do with their P2P service?

Nothing decentralized can go down and affect everyone from using an exchange. How are you going to stop bitcoin blocks getting mined or nodes from verifying transactions? It's not going to help if you just take out Joe in Texas who runs a mining operation or runs a node. You would only be stopping his operations. Everything else remains unaffected. 

Never used either of the two. I don't know. If you trade on those exchanges, how do you access the exchanges? Is it only through their websites? Do you have a software running on your computer that synchronizes similarly to Bisq? Do you have to be online for trades to be executed? 

DEX is a popular buzzword. Crypto services like to use it because they know that crypto traders love to see it. 

I don't use altcoins and altcoin services that much to know about their uptime. MetaMask calls itself decentralized, but not that long ago they blocked users from Iran from accessing the wallet. If IP addresses can't connect to MetaMask servers, then there is a central authority who can make such decisions. A central authority isn't decentralization.

You are still relying on the liquidity or order book nodes to be online for the exchange to work. If they go down, the exchange goes down. I don't know if there are such hybrid options.

Pretty much, yes.

Binance is an example of a service that wrongly markets itself as decentralized. It's not a DEX, it's a CEX. You deposit your coins with Binance. They own them. They can freeze them or ask you questions. If Binance disappears, your coins disappear with them. In their P2P model, they act as a 3rd party who has the keys to everyone's crypto and is in absolute control.

You asked something similar before. I answered by using eXch as an example. I bookmarked the exchange's onion address a long time ago, and it's the same today as it was back then.

Okay then from my understanding, True Decentralization status means if the service goes down then it doesn't affect all end users? Has Uniswap & Pancakeswap DEX service ever gone down in the past that affected all of their end users? What if their service gone down in the past but only affected like half of their users because they have a backup server, still not decentralized? If Uniswap or Pancakeswap not truly decentralized then how are they fooling millions of crypto users to use their so called DEX service or is it because they are using them because of simply No-KYC? Uniswap & Pancakeswap still have the ability the freeze your crypto even though there is no-kyc with them? What about Web 3 web browser wallets that interact with them, are they like decentralized P2P wallet nodes like Bisq, have MetaMask wallet service ever gone down in the past?

What about like a hybrid decentralization network, like 1 or 2 central points No-Kyc required but with lots of interconnected nodes. Like 1 central server provides liquidity while the other central server provides order book data providing for the P2P nodes with their own crypto wallet that still require to download and install software/app/wallet to interact with it? Doesn't make sense for a hybrid network, its either truly decentralized or not?

True Decentralization status means the end users device such as a laptop or computer is the node itself and it requires software to download and installed to interact with other P2P nodes so if I break or lose my laptop it doesn't affect other users? How does Binance P2P work  

Why do Onion addresses change all the time and how does the Tor user verify that the new onion address is legit/genuine?

An exchange is decentralized if it doesn't have one central (main) point of failure. If every user of the exchange acts as a node in an interconnected P2P way and you make connections directly with different peers, that's decentralized. If one of those peers goes offline, it doesn't disrupt the entire operation of the exchange. It only affects that user, their active trades, and others interested in trading with the peer that went offline. Everything else runs normally.

There is no rule that says how many servers are needed. Like I said before, the more there are, the more decentralized a system is. 1 server equals to centralization. 2 is better, but still not good enough. 10 means more decentralization than with one or two, and so on. Obviously, you can't have 1000s of running instances (servers) of a DEX if that platform only has 200 users. 

Can't help you there. I don't know. I am questioning its decentralized nature because I think you must connect to one central point to be able to use Robosats, but I could be wrong. Let's see if someone else drops by who knows how Robosats actually runs. 

TOR, the network is decentralized. But we are not talking about the TOR network, but the services that run on top of it. TOR is decentralized because your connection goes through different hops or nodes before you connect to the target server. These nodes can't connect who you are as a person to what you are doing. That's how you get anonymity with TOR. Because the connection hops between different servers, it's impossible to know who connected to what and what they are doing, unless all the TOR nodes that relay your connection are compromised.

But don't confuse the way TOR (the network) works with an exchange available over TOR. That exchange can still be centralized if the only way to use it is to connect to the main server of that exchange. eXch, which we discussed in a different topic, is a good example. It runs over TOR but is centralized. The coins you trade there belong to eXch, not individual users. eXch isn't a P2P exchange where individuals connect with one another. No, you are dealing with the liquidity that eXch provides.

It's worth pointing out that just because something is centralized, it doesn't equal to not trusted and unsafe.