Topic: BitBank? (Read 22033 times)

They seem to be the same guys (jua.com) that recently (about two weeks ago) bought for 1,000 bitcoins the Bter exchange hacked in the last mid-February. Though the deal was not officially advertised as purchase (it was announced that jua.com provided a 1,000 bitcoin interest-free loan to Bter in exchange for shares), but since Bter had been desperately searching for a buyer, I think it's just that...

But why ? Ok they will get 1% per month but you will need cash too, so someone will lose something. Or you can be so rich and invest their money, then it can be really good.

Found this very old topic from 2010
Now a Chinese bitcoin company bought the domain name BitBank.com recently (see this). This is coming true. (In fact, there are some website around here is offering a percentage for deposit bitcoins.)

I need 18 btc and would gladly pay 20 or even 25% with a maturity date of 90 days from the date of the loan. Anyone care to help me out?

That's it, I'm making a proper market.

*fires off a django install*

request for quote:

I want to exchange 1000 BTC for USD on March 17th, 2011.  Anyone willing to enter into a forward?

I think you're right about needing to post cash as well, cash as collateral could be converted to BTC to manage the margin account.

The big reason this kind of intermediation (options or futures market) is necessary is because bitcoin right now isn't really "capital" that can be productively employed. Liquidity between BTC and EUR and USD is great, right now the best way to run a profitable BTC bank is probably to convert BTC deposits into some fiat currency, make a traditional interest bearing investment, and convert/re-pay in BTC.

You might get some takers on the other side of the transaction from people running a server farm with fast computers, video cards, etc... there is some serious risk that the value of BTC could plummet; why spend a bunch of effort to develop some hot FPGA BTC mining program if the bottom could fall out of the BTC price? Better to sell your wares forward in time at a known price, just like agricultural farmers selling futures in corn.

If you're only loaning 10 BTC, than you only need a little verification, and so on.

A loan service could be a good idea, but of course you would need
various verification process in place to ensure it could actually work,
but i think a bitbank is a very good idea and linked with a physical card would be gold,
i think the bit bank could offer CD's to investors, for those looking to earn a return
on their BTC deposit.

Good point.  I don't know much about human behavior...maybe what you say is true.  In that case, we should focus on figuring out a way to implement virtual collateral tied into the bitcoin loan, such that if a loan isn't paid, then your internet domain or whatever you put on as collateral automatically changes ownership.

Learn the lesson of Prosper.com:  in absence of collateral or army of lawyers, people will not pay back loans even if risk is priced at 100% interest.

And, of course, I know all of this.  I just don't think that these issues are relevant to a 30 day contract between two or three parties.  What have you lost in the addition of a currency trader being involved that you didn't lose in the original contract? 

Yes the currency the loan is denominated does matter.  Digital USD are very traceable.  But you can buy things with bitcoin with privacy, such as secret offshore domain names, and other things listen in the bitcoin trading section that would be much more difficult to buy with USD.  Also, USD are not a very good hold of value...Dollar Slides After Fed Statement, so you don't want to have your money denominated in USD.  Also, if you are buying something denominated in bitcoin with USD, the USD must first be converted into bitcoin, costing some currency exchange transaction cost and possibly revealing your identity in that transaction.  Oh yeah, and bitcoin is more of a Universal Currency (like gold/silver and unlike USD), since it can be used anywhere there is internet connection in any country, without needing a bank account or registering your name with authorities.  So yes, what currency the loan is denominated in is important.

Also the fact that a loan requires collateral is NOT a strawman.  In lending agreements, collateral is a borrower's pledge of specific property to a lender, to secure repayment of a loan.  If you use collateral for a loan, then you will have to hand that piece of collateral to the loaner if you fail to pay back the loan.  This is worse than just loosing points on your credit score.  So naturally, a lack of collateral will have to be compensated by higher interest rates.

That's a strawman argument, and one that I'm not entirely sure is even relevent.  Why does it matter what currency the loan is denominated in if the rate is so high?

Creighto--

I will borrow 500 bitcoins at 100% per month from a payday advance store (or, more technically, from the person who can arrange such a loan for themselves and prove it) as long as the loan is denominated in bitcoins.

does this makes my original loan look less usurious?

and careful when you say your offer is better.  your loan requires collateral.

Okay, fair enough.  I will make a better offer.  I can offer a one month loan, for up to 500 coins, to anyone willing and able to either offer collateral that I can accept or willing to drop autonomy with respect to myself so that I could reasonably enforce an agreement.  I'd be more than willing to negotiate the terms, but would be unwilling to loan to anyone that I considered a risk too great to loan at 4% per month.

You could arrange it easily enough on your own.  Just because the loan isn't denominated in Bitcoin doesn't mean that it has to stay that way.  Paying 8% monthly interest to avoid a 3% transaction fee from Paypal is bad math.

"I could get a better rate from the loanshark/bookie operation down on main, or from any payday advance place that preys upon the poor & addicted."

Really?  Denominated solely in bitcoins?  I will gladly borrow 100 bitcoins at 8%/month from a certified payday advance place if you can arrange it. 

Well those 1.6% monthly rates are in Federal Reserve Notes.  Sorry, but people aren't interested in them.  Unfortunately, I don't know of many other bitcoiners offering loans.  Naturally, as there become more sellers, the price will drop.

And as I already mentioned, it would be nice to use some sortof collateral, but that is hard to do anomalously on the internet with virtual goods...although if anyone has some ideas, feel free to offer them.  So that is why I have to charge such high interest rates.  You are free to make a lower offer.  It's quite likely that someone wants bitcoins right now to buy something, but doesn't have any at the moment...

Those are ursury rates anyway.  I could get a better rate from the loanshark/bookie operation down on main, or from any payday advance place that preys upon the poor & addicted.  8% monthly is getting close to a 100% APR.  Even my credit cards, when I was still young and dumb enough to carry them, didn't charge over 1.6% monthly.  If you guys are really going to start a credit & loan operation using Bitcoin, at least do so within realisitic revolving credit margins.  If you aren't willing to run proper credit checks on your customers, or they aren't willing to submit to the scrutiny, you could accept collateral, like a pawn shop.  I'm not sure what that kind of collateral that could be other than a security deposit in Bitcoins or some other currency, in which case the markets are just as well.  Although I'm sure that credit derived from Bitcoin has a place in the the material world, I'm not convienced that it has any place in online commerce.  That would re-introduce many of the problems with use of credit online that Bitcoin could solve.