Topic: Bitbay Announce First Decentralized Market Release (out of Beta) - page 2. (Read 3760 times)

Note the correction above and also the incoherence of the sentence I had quoted. Now I understand what you meant to write was "Perhaps Bob wishes to pay cash to Alice for Alice's bitcoins" because "using cash from Alice" implies Bob is using Alice's money to buy Bitcoins from someone else which lead to think maybe you were designing a 3 party protocol. You may be similar to myself in having a high math IQ but a lower verbal IQ. Your SAT test would have indicated this to you if so.

Your white paper is written as if you are writing your thinking instead of writing for the reader who understands nothing that is already clear in your mind. As a writer you have to take yourself out of your own perspective, which is difficult to do when deep in engineering/conceptual thought. And the editorial review step of writing should catch and fix incoherent sentences that sow confusion for the reader who is trying to form a conceptual map.


This is a much superior, concise, and comprehensible explanation.

And the deposit can be increased relative to the size of what is being traded, so that the intermediate step doesn't alter the balance (-of-risk) much, e.g. Bob deposits $1000 and Alice $1100, then on payment Bob has $1100 at risk and Alice $1000.

This indeed is the only way I can see to solve the sort of problem you explained:


However, I still don't understand how this protocol helps you set up eBay auctions decentralized? (perhaps I could figure it out, but easier to let you tell us)

P.S. I am starting to take an interest in you. He or she who solves a serious problem for society with a viable protocol, especially at your age, is bumped up several notches on my radar. I am very curious about your programming talent.

Man i agree so much on all accounts. Im aware of the reality of the world. Too much. But when i have to be passionate about something money is not the prime motivator. So im an idealist at heart but am completely a realist in my objective knowledge.

I know that 3rd world wont adopt high tech and i know that 1st world will go to whatever is popular.

They dont call them sheeple for nothing! No offense to the sheeple of course, the media has an iron grip on their balls!! In a vice grip. Their minds are dominated by journalism... even fake science.

So can anyone compete with Ebay? No of course not. But things change something will take its place.

What i would like to see is a gateway for Ebay resellers so you can buy through Halo from a person willing to transact on their behalf on Ebay.

But even if that existed its true the masses wont want that. Eventually the masses will get tired of breathing and robots will do that for them too. Its not enough that the tv does your thinking for you. It must eat our food for us and breathe for us. Sad but true.

An ico would be nice but not unless im done with these projects.

Now, we're talking!

But, I can tell you from sad experience that folks who set up marketplaces in competition with eBay have almost always struck out. There was even a team of three Power Sellers who banded together to do so; nothing came of their plan. eBay's network effect is too strong to crack, at least by a grassroots team.


I really should clarify. I wrote my earlier post from the perspective of a "hard-nosed realist" that was looking for viable use cases. To be honest, I didn't know you were more of the idealist type.


There we go. Places where legal protections are iffy or non-existent: these are the target markets for Bitbay and/or Bithalo. But the trouble is, sectors like that naturally breed a low-trust mentality that inculcates suspicion of strangers. The low trust and wariness serves as a substitute for legal protection. That requires an evangelist to have "roots" in one of these communities, else it'll be enormously difficult to break through that suspicion barrier.


Well, a Bithalo-escrowed altcoin ICO would help...

It certainly is a neat solution to the problem of trust-free exchange. But it does leave open the question, "why would a seller and a buyer agree to making security deposits? What's wrong with eBay's Trust and Safety?"

After mulling this question over, I've got a somewhat gloomy but realistic answer: dark markets. Markets where neither the buyer nor the seller have recourse to the law to assure that the other fulfills the contract.

Interestingly, with the dark-market option you've got a real use case even if it seems silly.



There's actually a humanitarian argument to be made for this use case. From a humanist standpoint, mutual escrow is a helluva lot better than a drive-by shooting. The trouble with this specific use case is that inner-city-type drug dealers take a lot of pride in retaliating physically against someone who they feel has cheated them. Up to and including murder, for the hard-core. Getting them to shift to compulsory two-sided escrow would be as difficult as convincing a 19th-century frontier vigilante that the rule of law is in his best interest. He'd be quite resistant to giving up his frontier right to "Hang 'Em High", even if leaving it to the law is in his best interest.

A more promising dark-market option is otherwise-legitimate transactions that have to occur without legal protection because of associated illegalities. Case in point: buying (say) shoes from a black-market stall or pop-up shop run by an illegal immigrant. There's nothing illegal in this transaction in itself, provided the shoes were't stolen, but an illegal immigrant is not someone who's going to call in the cops if cheated - at least, not without a lot of reluctance. Double escrow could work in this clime, tho' you'd have to have some evangelists that were legitimate members of that subculture prior to evangelizing for Bitbay.

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But for here, I can't think of any better use case than an altcoin ICO!

Whats not concise? The protocol was explained from many angles with diagrams as well.

Most crucially, the software exists, works and can be used. Actions speak louder than words. The code speaks for itself.

I think the writepaper could use an update however since its been 2 years and now that its fully coded i can speak from experience in retrograde.

The cash example refers to people who buy bitcoin. Traditionally Bitcoin is bought otc or through escrow. But otc is dangerous they can keep your cash and not send the bitcoins. And an escrow agent could steal funds. Furthermore, an escrow agent cannot truly calidate if deception took place or thr cash never arrived.

So bob wants to buy 100 usd of bitcoin from alice lets say.

So Bob deposits 100 usd in btc (to prevent himself from extorting from alice)
And Alice advances 100 usd in btc for the purchase plus 100 usd deposit

Now Alice is out 200 Bob is out 100 locked into an escrow that each of them has 50% control. They agreed that the time limit is 2 weeks. If this time limit expires they both destroy the escrow resulting in loss for both parties. Since that cant be prevented they must work together.

Now Bob sends 100 in cash via western union. Note this is the first time in history WU can be used trustless without an escrow agent or laws tacitly as a deterrent.

Once Alice gets the 100 she is still -100 because of her deposit and advanced payment. Bob is -200 because his deposit and cash advance.

Now they release escrow since they agree the deal is complete. Bob gets his deposit back and 100 usd in btc and Alice gets her deposit back so now she has 100 usd in cash in exchange for her btc. The sale of btcoins is complete. Both parties are happy and nobody needed a government or third party looming over the deal. And more importantly, at no point could Bob or Alice steal from this deal or try to lie to the other because if they had they both would have lost.

Lke ive said before as well deposits dont always have to be equal to the value. They can be 10% the value since any deposit in this deal would be a net loss for a thief. However make the deposits high is best when dealing with an untrusted party. You deposit thus reflects your level of trust.

David directed me to the Help Desk at https://bithalo.org where I skimmed through the White paper and the section 2.10 of the Documentation.

I find it difficult to follow quickly due to the way it is not written with a concise explanation. And I am not really willing to expend the effort to attempt to reverse engineer the possibilities of what he attempting to describe. It appears he is proposing a protocol wherein the seller of for example BTC could escrow the BTC with the buyer such that the buyer risks double the BTC if the buyer doesn't pay the fiat or commodity to the seller. But I can't understand the protocol; for example he makes a statement in the white paper which I don't understand, "Perhaps Bob wishes to purchase bitcoins using cash from Alice".

I will await David to clarify.

Btw, ostensibly he is attempting a very steep learning curve at his age and the level of programming experience he had coming into this. So it is expected that at his age and level of experience, that his articulation would be somewhat difficult to follow, that is unless he is Eric S. Raymond who is a verbal and math genius.

All that matters are your actions, not your reputation. You are your own judge, whom you face daily.

It should be noted bitcointalk is (controlled opposition) ... there is more to those "fake profiles" on here than people think. They are pushing govt agenda... just sayin...

And there is a little known secret in this world... the more hated the person the more likely they did something RIGHT (Stan Meyer, Royal Rife)

Let me leave you with this:
   
When you get what you want in your struggle for self
And the world makes you king for a day
Just go to the mirror and look at yourself
And see what that man has to say.

For it isn’t your father, or mother, or wife
Whose judgment upon you must pass
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the one staring back from the glass.

He’s the fellow to please – never mind all the rest
For he’s with you, clear to the end
And you’ve passed your most difficult, dangerous test
If the man in the glass is your friend.

You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you’ve cheated the man in the glass.

I hear ya. Myself, I haven't gotten that trick down but that's not a big loss in my case.

No worries, if you're anything like me you're busy as hell

If they are active now in the beta that may earn you the crown of the first marketplace platform with functional auctions.  I know its been on the road map for a number of projects for quite some time, but unless I'm mistaken, none have launched a functional solution at all yet....so well done

David unlike Vitalik, you are willing to come here and debate. Good! Please point me to the white paper so that I may peer review your technological claims in sufficient detail?

For example, I will want to see how you lock in commitments in a P2P consensus. And I expect to find a flaw.

Hey saw this a bit late, YES the Buy/Sell anything template has auctions, reverse auctions and multiple shipping options and billing styles

Currently you can still sell things with the "custom" template but this is way better and more user friendly

Also take note of the current existing coins for cash template which is like a decentralized localbitcoins with a low volume price tracker

Ah, you didn't know. Insults and arrogance are actually TPTB_'s currency of choice since, unlike yourself, they're a lot more accessible to him than anything he's (not) capable of hammering out on a blockchain.

Your mistake was to have spent a year and a half knocking your pan in actually producing something when of course you should have been spending it traversing bitcointalk threads firefighting trolls and dishing out technical put-downs   

I think every committed developer around here has been bashed, and bashed hard at some point, usually for events out of their control, or by others manipulating a desire to "do the right thing".

It takes a certain kind of person to continue regardless of all that kinda heat, so that kind of commitment alone should be enough for any peace of mind anyone may need.

No we will not charge for transactions other than an anti spam fee.  Not for the things that are on the road map now anyway.

You are wrong on all accounts here. The markets are PEER TO PEER. They leverage Bitmessage and don't use a blockchain. This can scale to any level since the contract data is only store about markets that you care about and Bitmessage only holds 2 days in memory and I've done a custom build to allow determined sellers to resubmit orders.

So yeah there is no bloat. Thats the POINT. I'm not pumping Bitbay, I've never even sold a single coin. I'm simply completing Halo/BlackHalo/BitHalo/Bitbay as promised. Maybe you don't realize this but I worked on BitHalo for free for almost 2 years before i was into the Bitbay project.

The pegging is a serious feature you should also read up more on before insulting people without a technical background.

I have to say, David Zimbeck is one tenacious fellow. The way he got trashed last year over the ICO shenanigans, it took real staying power to stick with Bitbay. Props to him.

have read up on this and seems genuine. Good work Bitbay!

thank you for the clarification. I think I understand now.

DAC = Decentralized Autonomous Company, or you call it a DAO, or however you want to phrase it, it's basically a way of saying a business on a blockchain. BitBay is a DAC, but if it offers its services for free it's not a profitable DAC. I'm asking if BAY will charge people for transactions, and if so, will part of that profit go towards increasing the price of BAY when the peg rolls?

It means you can pump but not dump