fair enough, thank you gents,
i've actually learnt some few things outta it.
Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork (Read 154781 times)
fair enough, thank you gents,
i've actually learnt some few things outta it.
Yeah, lock the thread.
no godwin, just carve this in your little brain.
You don't know what Godwin's Law is, do you? It basically says that the probability of someone mentioning Hitler in an Internet discussion approaches 1 with time, and that's just what has happened here. So, yes, yes Godwin.
For what it's worth, in its original form it went on to state that once somebody mentions Hitler, odds are that the thread is no longer worth reading.
So, yah, count me as +1 for locking the thread. It got stupid a long time ago.
edit: this thread is just out of control, maybe i should lock it?
+1 yes please.
yes. i do. just leave it there.
edit: this thread is just out of control, maybe i should lock it?
edit: this thread is just out of control, maybe i should lock it?
maybe you prefer german - and with a nice gif animated picture:
rofl... i dont think this means what you think it does
You don't know what Godwin's Law is, do you? It basically says that the probability of someone mentioning Hitler in an Internet discussion approaches 1 with time, and that's just what has happened here. So, yes, yes Godwin.
this is fallacious to imply im bringing an uneducated trollturdish argument when just stating a fact. what now? cant we even talk about socialism and its paganistic mass-murderish tendencies? you guys are so uptight and wide open - ready to get screwed - at the same time..
Why was socialism brought in the first place? Your argument basically boils down to “Your 20 MB proposal is a socialist idea, and Hitler was socialist, and everything Hitler did is bad, and therefore your proposal is bad”. Besides this, I see no point at all to mentioning socialism in this thread.
I know, because this talk is just endless. Everything technically relevant have been covered. People who believe, people who dont. People that DGAF or are just waiting on the sideline.
A fork might be, and people might embrace it, ignore it, resist it, speculate on it.. ♪ Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,Trash it, change it, mail - upgrade it, Charge it, point it, zoom it, press it.. ♬♪♩
Anyhow, very interesting times ahead.
ignoratio elenchi
Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
maybe you prefer german - and with a nice gif animated picture:
You don't know what Godwin's Law is, do you? It basically says that the probability of someone mentioning Hitler in an Internet discussion approaches 1 with time, and that's just what has happened here. So, yes, yes Godwin.
this is fallacious to imply im bringing an uneducated trollturdish argument when just stating a fact. what now? cant we even talk about socialism and its paganistic mass-murderish tendencies? you guys are so uptight and wide open - ready to get screwed - at the same time..
Why was socialism brought in the first place? Your argument basically boils down to “Your 20 MB proposal is a socialist idea, and Hitler was socialist, and everything Hitler did is bad, and therefore your proposal is bad”. Besides this, I see no point at all to mentioning socialism in this thread.
ignoratio elenchi
Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
no godwin, just carve this in your little brain.
You don't know what Godwin's Law is, do you? It basically says that the probability of someone mentioning Hitler in an Internet discussion approaches 1 with time, and that's just what has happened here. So, yes, yes Godwin.
this is fallacious to imply im bringing an uneducated trollturdish argument when just stating a fact. what now? cant we even talk about socialism and its paganistic mass-murderish tendencies? you are so uptight and wide open - ready to get screwed - at the same time..
btw faschism = state + corporation = gavin sponsored fork 
I don't know why you people think that adding emoticons to your statements somehow validates them more or something.
ignoratio elenchi
no godwin, just carve this in your little brain.
You don't know what Godwin's Law is, do you? It basically says that the probability of someone mentioning Hitler in an Internet discussion approaches 1 with time, and that's just what has happened here. So, yes, yes Godwin.
btw faschism = state + corporation = gavin sponsored fork
I don't know why you people think that adding emoticons to your statements somehow validates them more or something.
its more than time to end socialism.
As amusing as it is to see some idiot mistake Adolf Hitler for a socialist.....
I think we had reached the Godwin Limit long, long before this normally-reliable indicator appeared.
Well, to be fair, the Nazi Party was “National Socialism”. But yeah, I agree that we're beyond the Godwin Limit.
hitler = socialist (cf the party name, the red flag, the workers vote, the huge plants and the equalizing BS speech)
no godwin, just carve this in your little brain.
btw faschism = state + corporation = gavin sponsored fork
7bn people using bitcoin? woa, i cant believe people even seriously consider this.
helloo theres not even 3bn people using the internet.. after 20+years since its mainstream inception.
this is worst than a cult. you guys need help.
helloo theres not even 3bn people using the internet.. after 20+years since its mainstream inception.
this is worst than a cult. you guys need help.
According to http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf
Bitcoin Can Scale
● 7 billion people making 20 blockchain
transactions per day
○ 240 GB blocks (~24,000 MB)
■ 7e9 * 20txs * 250Bytes / 144 block/day
○ ~500 Mbit/s best-case with IBLT @ 20tx/day/person
● 7 billion people roll-over 2 channels per year
○ 133 MB blocks - unlimited transactions count
■ 7e9 * 2 txs * 500Byte / 52560blocks/yr
○ ~3 Mbit/s with IBLT
So that only requires a 3Mbit/s internet connection. That's reasonable now, but not needed until 7B people are making UNLIMITED bitcoin transactions per day. I think we're past the 20MB debate. Time to move on and get over it. MPs 1MB fork will be long forgotten.
Bitcoin Can Scale
● 7 billion people making 20 blockchain
transactions per day
○ 240 GB blocks (~24,000 MB)
■ 7e9 * 20txs * 250Bytes / 144 block/day
○ ~500 Mbit/s best-case with IBLT @ 20tx/day/person
● 7 billion people roll-over 2 channels per year
○ 133 MB blocks - unlimited transactions count
■ 7e9 * 2 txs * 500Byte / 52560blocks/yr
○ ~3 Mbit/s with IBLT
So that only requires a 3Mbit/s internet connection. That's reasonable now, but not needed until 7B people are making UNLIMITED bitcoin transactions per day. I think we're past the 20MB debate. Time to move on and get over it. MPs 1MB fork will be long forgotten.
Both sides are claiming the other side is the minority. How can we objectively know who is right?
One side has the poll above with almost 3:1 in favor. The other side has a handful of paid clowns. We do know that Gavin has talked with businesses bigger than Paymium and they also confirmed the in-favor vote.
spam
The only thing I've seen from you is brainless shilling.
Both sides are claiming the other side is the minority. How can we objectively know who is right?
Really? I see my side (the 'minimalists for maximum defensibly' I guess one could say) as being in the distinct minority, though not as much of a minority as I expected (which is hopeful.)
Back to a post I never got around to replying to, by D&T iirc, he claimed with supposed certainty that the block size will increase before an spv-proof opcode if it ever happens at all. For my part, I'll certainly fight bloat because I am confident that my position is 'right', and beyond that I don't even feel inclined to horse-trade. I'd support the soft-fork because it is safe and generally useful, and will resist the any bloating hard-fork at all until it is justified by a need and until there is well described scaling plan.
Both sides are claiming the other side is the minority. How can we objectively know who is right?
This thread sucks.
That is entirely because of people like you, rehashing previously refuted arguments.
No limit, let the miners decide.
Quote from: Mircea Popescu http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/
VII. The minersi decide.
No, they do not. The miners make some minor decisions in Bitcoin, but major decisions such as block forks are not at their disposition alone, and this for excellent reasons you'll readily understand if you stop and think about it.
There are two specific methods to control miners on this matter, which will make the scamcoin Gavin is trying to replace everyone's Bitcoin with only replace some people's Bitcoin. The first and most obvious is that irrespective of what miners mine, each single full node will reject illegal blocks. This is a fact. If all the miners out there suddenly quit Bitcon and go mine Keiser's Aurora scamcoin instead, from the perspective of the Bitcoin network hash rate simply dropped and that's all. There's absolutely no difference between Keiser's scamcoin and Gavin's scam coin as far as the network is concerned : while one's a scammer that I humiliatingly defeated in the past whereas the other a scammer that I humiliatingly defeat in the future, this makes no difference for Bitcoin. As far as anyone will be able to perceive, miners simply left.
The second and perhaps not as obvious has nevertheless been discussed at length on multiple occasions on #bitcoin-assets. Consider this terse explanation from March. 2013.
The situation here is aggravated by the fact that the fork proposed is not simply nondeterministic behaviourii, and so the holdings on the two chains aren't notionally equivalent. Instead, all the holdings on the Bitcoin chain are accepted as valid on both Bitcoin and Gavincoin, but holdings on Gavincoin are rejected by Bitcoin. Consequently, everyone involved with the fork is writing options to everyone in Bitcoin, free of charge. That they have no ready way to finance these should be obvious, and consequently the grim prospects of the Gavin side of the fork should be just as obvious. At least, to people who understand economy to any degree.
No, they do not. The miners make some minor decisions in Bitcoin, but major decisions such as block forks are not at their disposition alone, and this for excellent reasons you'll readily understand if you stop and think about it.
There are two specific methods to control miners on this matter, which will make the scamcoin Gavin is trying to replace everyone's Bitcoin with only replace some people's Bitcoin. The first and most obvious is that irrespective of what miners mine, each single full node will reject illegal blocks. This is a fact. If all the miners out there suddenly quit Bitcon and go mine Keiser's Aurora scamcoin instead, from the perspective of the Bitcoin network hash rate simply dropped and that's all. There's absolutely no difference between Keiser's scamcoin and Gavin's scam coin as far as the network is concerned : while one's a scammer that I humiliatingly defeated in the past whereas the other a scammer that I humiliatingly defeat in the future, this makes no difference for Bitcoin. As far as anyone will be able to perceive, miners simply left.
The second and perhaps not as obvious has nevertheless been discussed at length on multiple occasions on #bitcoin-assets. Consider this terse explanation from March. 2013.
Quote
mircea_popescu: whoever has enough money to matter is likely to pick one chain for whatever reason
mircea_popescu: since fork means btc can be spent independently on either chain
mircea_popescu: he will sell his btc on one and perhaps buy on the other.
mircea_popescu: as a result prices will rapidly diverge, panicking the mass of users, and the fork is economically resolved.
mircea_popescu: since fork means btc can be spent independently on either chain
mircea_popescu: he will sell his btc on one and perhaps buy on the other.
mircea_popescu: as a result prices will rapidly diverge, panicking the mass of users, and the fork is economically resolved.
The situation here is aggravated by the fact that the fork proposed is not simply nondeterministic behaviourii, and so the holdings on the two chains aren't notionally equivalent. Instead, all the holdings on the Bitcoin chain are accepted as valid on both Bitcoin and Gavincoin, but holdings on Gavincoin are rejected by Bitcoin. Consequently, everyone involved with the fork is writing options to everyone in Bitcoin, free of charge. That they have no ready way to finance these should be obvious, and consequently the grim prospects of the Gavin side of the fork should be just as obvious. At least, to people who understand economy to any degree.
I advocate letting the free market decide the block size, and some troll accuse me of advocating socialism?
Quote from: Mircea Popescu http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/
VI. This is a clerical issue, because block propagation and other considerations incentivize miners to keep blocks small anyway. The 1MB is just a hard limit getting in the way of things, the marketplace of miners should be allowed to fix block size as it seems appropriate.
While this argument has been disingenuously brought by Gavin himself, the fact is that the proposed inverted bloom filters upgrade would allow all blocks to propagate in constant time, regardless of their size. Just the sort of deceitful poison flowing out of USG through its few remaining (but apparently well entrenched) Bitcoin moles.
While this argument has been disingenuously brought by Gavin himself, the fact is that the proposed inverted bloom filters upgrade would allow all blocks to propagate in constant time, regardless of their size. Just the sort of deceitful poison flowing out of USG through its few remaining (but apparently well entrenched) Bitcoin moles.
On the other hand, it's clear that the majority wants the 1MB limit obliterated..
Quote from: Mircea Popescu http://trilema.com/2015/third-pass-addressing-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/
XIV. We all agree.
Good for you, too bad you're irrelevant. Bitcoin is about money and about power, not about opinion and social media. You can agree until you are blue in the face, that's not what makes a difference. Your public humiliation on this score - in case your shepherd be dumb enough to actually take the field and be humiliatedii - should be instructive for you.
Take notice on the why and the how you don't matter, understand why "MP doesn't cater to my idiocy which makes me want to support anything else" doesn't actually do anything, break through the shell of your own idiocy and start actually developing as a human being already. Going by your infantile behaviour this is clearly the first time you had the chance, but going by the messy state of the world around you it might actually be your last, too. Try and make the best of the very little you have at your disposal.
Good for you, too bad you're irrelevant. Bitcoin is about money and about power, not about opinion and social media. You can agree until you are blue in the face, that's not what makes a difference. Your public humiliation on this score - in case your shepherd be dumb enough to actually take the field and be humiliatedii - should be instructive for you.
Take notice on the why and the how you don't matter, understand why "MP doesn't cater to my idiocy which makes me want to support anything else" doesn't actually do anything, break through the shell of your own idiocy and start actually developing as a human being already. Going by your infantile behaviour this is clearly the first time you had the chance, but going by the messy state of the world around you it might actually be your last, too. Try and make the best of the very little you have at your disposal.
I advocate letting the free market decide the block size, and some troll accuse me of advocating socialism? This thread sucks.
On the other hand, it's clear that the majority wants the 1MB limit obliterated..
and it's also clear that only a handful of trolls are defending the 1MB and happens to be the loudest vocal minority.
On the other hand, it's clear that the majority wants the 1MB limit obliterated..
and it's also clear that only a handful of trolls are defending the 1MB and happens to be the loudest vocal minority.
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