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Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork - page 101. (Read 154787 times)

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
February 05, 2015, 03:18:55 AM
I personally will leave btc behind for good with a larger chain[/s] (just refuse using Gavincoin - it isn't even 'bitcoin' - it is really 'gavincoin') or stick to the old fork in case it can survive.
I'm afraid you are a victim of propaganda and lies.
The 1MB cap was always a temporary measure, bitcoin is just following it's original game plan of removing it. The true bitcoin will be the chain removing the choke.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
February 05, 2015, 03:07:00 AM
if i generate my own vanity addresses, and leave my bitcoins on them, they would not automatically be 'updated' if the fork would come true, correct?

The fork has no effect on anyone's existing bitcoin holding. It only affects newly mined bitcoins rewarded after the fork occurs.

great ty.

ima play swiss neutrality. here for the long run anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
February 05, 2015, 03:05:47 AM
if i generate my own vanity addresses, and leave my bitcoins on them, they would not automatically be 'updated' if the fork would come true, correct?

The fork has no effect on anyone's existing bitcoin holding. It only affects newly mined bitcoins rewarded after the fork occurs.

edit: i.e. you don't want to mine on a fork which is not the majority fork, because the reward will be worth little or nothing.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
February 05, 2015, 03:00:59 AM
if i generate my own vanity addresses, and indefinitely leave my bitcoins on them, they would not automatically be 'updated' if the fork would come true, correct?
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
February 05, 2015, 02:59:45 AM
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
February 05, 2015, 02:56:54 AM
Investors Speculators love uncertainty and in-fighting.

ftfy
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
February 05, 2015, 02:56:20 AM
Investors love uncertainty and in-fighting.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
February 05, 2015, 02:34:39 AM
got a new one for ya

legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
February 05, 2015, 02:19:30 AM
Currently a block can take 1 minute to propagate to most of the node, if large blocks took more than 10 minutes to broadcast, the whole network will be segmented, or you have to rely on several large bitcoin hubs on ISP's backbone. But if the block size is small and thousands of nodes become the hub for off-chain small transactions, then the system will still be very decentralized, although not distributed

Bitcoin itself does not know the capacity and health of network infrastructure, certain kind of human intervention is necessary, but should be in a very smooth manner
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
February 05, 2015, 02:10:18 AM
the point is: the chain is already pretty big. If it becomes 20 fold as big i will be forced to stop using bitcoin because i don't want a lite-client or rely on 3rd parties with my coins but on the other hand can't afford upgrading harddrive all the time (especially not with these bad btc prices).

If you raise blocklimit 20-fold it will become unaffordable for normal people to store the blockchain on their computers and because of that people loose access.

No need to post the same thing in 2 separate threads. Here is my answer:

my point is: the chain is already pretty big. If it becomes 20 fold as big i will be forced to stop using bitcoin because i don't want a lite-client or rely on 3rd parties with my coins but on the other hand can't afford upgrading harddrive all the time (especially not with these bad btc prices).

If you raise blocklimit 20-fold it will become unaffordable for normal people to store the blockchain on their computers and because of that people loose access.

Why does everyone believe that raising the block limit will instantly raise the blockchain too? It will not. It will take time until that will happen!

Even if it takes time: the blockchain is already very big - if you make it bigger normal people will need to upgrade their hardware to use it and people won't do that.


Right now there isn't even an immediate need to fork so the proposale doesn't make sense at this point in time.

As noted before: reaching the blocklimit will at first result in microtransactions being pushed off the chain and that won't be an issue for most users.

Fork to a bigger chain isn't rational at this point in time. Period.

Do you know how many viable blockchains are out there with almost only empty blocks and very small chanis (below 1bg storage)? Dozens!

Blockchains aren't scarce. So why would i use one blockchain that requires hundreds of GB storage when i can use one almost as secure  with much less HD-use? I personally will leave btc behind for good with a larger chain (just refuse using Gavincoin - it isn't even 'bitcoin' - it is really 'gavincoin') or stick to the old fork in case it can survive.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
February 05, 2015, 02:08:51 AM
the point is: the chain is already pretty big. If it becomes 20 fold as big i will be forced to stop using bitcoin because i don't want a lite-client or rely on 3rd parties with my coins but on the other hand can't afford upgrading harddrive all the time (especially not with these bad btc prices).

If you raise blocklimit 20-fold it will become unaffordable for normal people to store the blockchain on their computers and because of that people loose access.

No need to post the same thing in 2 separate threads. Here is my answer:

my point is: the chain is already pretty big. If it becomes 20 fold as big i will be forced to stop using bitcoin because i don't want a lite-client or rely on 3rd parties with my coins but on the other hand can't afford upgrading harddrive all the time (especially not with these bad btc prices).

If you raise blocklimit 20-fold it will become unaffordable for normal people to store the blockchain on their computers and because of that people loose access.

Why does everyone believe that raising the block limit will instantly raise the blockchain too? It will not. It will take time until that will happen!
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
February 05, 2015, 02:05:11 AM
the point is: the chain is already pretty big. If it becomes 20 fold as big i will be forced to stop using bitcoin because i don't want a lite-client or rely on 3rd parties with my coins but on the other hand can't afford upgrading harddrive all the time (especially not with these bad btc prices).

If you raise blocklimit 20-fold it will become unaffordable for normal people to store the blockchain on their computers and because of that people loose access.


On a sidenote:
I am not the only one totally annoyed by how bitcoin behaves in an effort to keep the dominant position and be the 'one coin for all' and with this hurts the alt-industry without an actual need as crypto is easy and fast to convert to other crypto. I think at this point it becomes inevitable to start using more than one chain and stop looking at btc as the only coin worth bothering with.
All the problems dissolve at exactly the moment we accept a multi-coin/chain solution.


raising the blocklimit will ensure little people to loose access.
Conclusion: one blockchain for everyone is no viable idea

With raising the blocklimit and creating a chain as big as 200gb and more as soon as 1 or 2 years down the road bitcoin won't be able to reach the enduser.

I would argue for actually doing nothing until we really reach the blocklimit and problems occure and see from there - any other approach isn't rational
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
February 05, 2015, 12:32:40 AM

Is there any reason to go beyond that?  Over twenty years, I think it's possible the blocksize could grow from 2 MB to 2 GB, and still stay pretty comfortably within the parameters of the limits listed earlier.  There would still be friction, of course, in various places and at various times.  But, overall, Bitcoin would prevail.  2 GB blocks represents nearly 7,000 transactions per second, rivaling Visa.  And that's just on the main chain, not to mention sidechains.  This schedule is much more conservative than what Gavin has proposed, yet, still would represent an impressive feat for a trustless P2P network.  I don't see any technical limits to achieving it.  Political risks exist, as always, but would be much lower.

Regardless, my view is that we need to explore more of a compromise.  Both of the proposals have issues of one type or another.  Burying our heads and ignoring the issue won't solve it.  And, if there is going to be a fork, which I think is inevitable, sooner is better than later.

IMHO, the proposal is both too aggressive in the short term and short-sighted in the long term.

I think a better proposal would be to quadruple the block size limit every 4 years, like the block reward is halved every 4 years.   This would put the block size limit in line with Moore's Law, and allow normal users to run full nodes on ordinary hardware.    



legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
February 05, 2015, 12:26:19 AM
The limit increase permits a much healthier outcome for the Bitcoin network and ecosystem.

Today is the limit increase, what will be tomorrow? Are people really wanting to go all in and bet all the todays consensus on the hard-fork? If you read Gavin post about the need for hard-fork, its a totally fear-based move with arguments Bitcoin will be replaced by Altcoins, this means its a matter of time until another need for a hard-fork happen and next time it wont be as trivial need as just increase block-size. I predict next hard-fork will want to increase the number of coins.

So no arguments against, just anti-fork by the rule? If I'm not mistaken, bitcoin has already been forked twice (2013 and 2010?). Are you sure you're on the very first fork?

The big difference here is that the earlier forks fixed obvious problems.  The giga-bloatchain fork does just the opposite.  To add insult to injury, 140 tps doesn't even com remotely close to the starry-eyed dreams of being the universal one-world currency that does everything for everyone that so many of you mouth-breathers are peddling (and/or buying.)

I'll tell you (and the Bitcoin Foundation) what.  State what you want Bitcoin to become, put it to numbers, and fork the motherfucker to a value which achieves it.  None of this weaselly backdoor incremental crap.  There is no legitimate reason for not doing so other than fear of losing the fish you've got on the line and trying to reel it on slowly.

Do that and you'll have my full support...and, parenthetically, you can buy most of my BTC as well.

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
February 05, 2015, 12:09:42 AM
But you are wrong I risk nothing by staying on the old chain its only those who fork that risk anything. I can send my coins to the new Giga-bloatcoin chain at any time. But those on the Bloated new chain can't move back to Bitcoin

Stop using this term. It is wrong. As it was already stated multiple times in the thread,

It's wrong because a gaggle of circle-jerkers stated so multiple times in trolltalk?  To quote Gavin, 'Okey Dokey'.

increasing the limit to 20 MB doesn't mean that the blocks will be full from day 1. The chain will grow bigger over time, not over night.

Every two-bit moocher wants to use the highly subsidized high security global messaging framework for their own whacked out needs.  Lots of idiotic stuff is in the pipeline so there is a very good chance that 'Giga-bloachain' is exactly what we'll have and in probably not to long.  Gotta run...logging into Coinbase to put the rest of my lifes' savings into the newer bigger better Bitcoin...what could possibly go wrong?

legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2015, 12:08:43 AM
Well, after quite a bit of research and reading arguments and yelling at various people, I am still convinced that the block size limit must be raised.  It was always a temporary limit.  We all knew this.  1MB blocks are not sufficient for any kind of future, global usage for anyone but a tiny fraction of a percent.  That was never the point of Bitcoin.

Furthermore, I am completely unconvinced by any of the proffered economic arguments for limiting the block size.  Not only do I find them utterly idiotic, those who have made these arguments are now somewhat suspect, in my view.

However, Gavin's proposal, as stated, is quite aggressive, and fails to account for several factors.  Among them:

  • Data caps.  Even though advertised speeds may be quite high, broadband connections in the US have restrictive data caps of less than 400 GB/month.  20MB blocks would not be immediately workable.  Worse, we can't count on these being lifted at any predictable rate.  Bumping up against these makes us dependent upon last-mile providers that tend to command oligopoly, if not monopoly, rents.  I don't think Bitcoin is in a position to pick a fight with ISPs quite yet.
  • Wireless.  Targeting a "pretty good home network connection" into the future risks leaving out a large fraction of users -- those with wireless links.  Wireless speeds do grow at a similar rate as wired and fiber optic networking, but they lag behind.  And, unlike point-to-point links, wireless spectrum is shared.  We need to at least consider the limits of (high-end) mesh networks as well.
  • Censorship.  This is the big one.  As far as the anti-fork crowd is concerned, every byte over the current limit is an invitation for some bureaucrat to insert themselves into the free-trade of Bitcoin transactions, to enforce whatever arbitrary nonsense they currently do with fiat, be it tariffs on bananas or morality codes or simply protecting the privileges of the "investor" class.  Every byte added makes Bitcoin more centralized, more dependent upon resources ultimately-paid-for in fiat, and more vulnerable to disruption and attack.  The day that the Bitcoin network is controlled by venture capitalists running servers in datacenters and not by individuals communicating peer-to-peer is the day we all lose our precious Bitcoins to stuffed-suits with bouffant hairdos.

So, over the last several days, I've come up with a few usage scenarios and various block sizes they would require.  All are based on a few assumptions, 1) that sidechains or a similar solution will arise to take most day-to-day transactions off of the main chain, 2) that the main chain should be accessible in some manner to a large group of people beyond just institutions, and 3) that network bandwidth and the aforementioned concerns are the key limits to block size growth.

The first scenario is the status quo.  Keeping 1MB blocks forever into the future doesn't even qualify as a serious proposal, in my view.  This would mean that the average person would be able to make one transaction every 73 years, if they are lucky enough to live that long.  Practically, access to the main chain would be limited to large institutions.  This is not even an improvement over the current financial system, as far as I'm concerned.  What is the benefit in running a node on your home computer so that you can audit the equivalent of gold transfers between central banks?  It's pointless for the average user.  Arguing that this limit benefits the average person is disingenuous, at best.

The second scenario is Gavin's proposal.  An immediate jump to 20MB blocks would likely be followed by weaponized spam providers such as CounterParty and various dice games rising to fill them.  Home-user nodes on capped or slow connections would be driven off the network, which would contract to perhaps a thousand or so highly-connected servers in datacenters, users with home fiber connections, and miners.  All of these would become immediate targets for regulators and whitelist profiteers wanting to filter out all transactions that can't be tracked to a government ID.  Nodes that tried to avoid this through Tor would overwhelm that network and bring it crashing down as well.  Gavin's brain chip would be activated, triggering him to don his mad scientist costume and make Youtube videos assuring the Bitcoin community that all is going "according to plan".  In case it's not obvious, this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  But I can see how the chance of this happening gives the anti-fork crowd pause.  So, like I said, 20MB blocks are a bit much.

But, assuming that sidechains or similar will eventually take the majority of daily transaction load off of the main chain, what is a reasonable size to target?  With a 130 MB block size, everyone on Earth would be able to make two transactions per year.  That's a minimally-functional savings account, in my book.  Anything less would have to be considered useful for "institutions-only".  Again, not the point of Bitcoin.  So I think this is a reasonable minimum to consider.  Getting there in 10 years would not be much of a burden.  I would love to hear valid arguments from the anti-fork crowd against this schedule, especially ones that don't involve magical artificial-scarcity-based economics or shrill cries of "think of the miners!"  Any takers?

Is there any reason to go beyond that?  Over twenty years, I think it's possible the blocksize could grow from 2 MB to 2 GB, and still stay pretty comfortably within the parameters of the limits listed earlier.  There would still be friction, of course, in various places and at various times.  But, overall, Bitcoin would prevail.  2 GB blocks represents nearly 7,000 transactions per second, rivaling Visa.  And that's just on the main chain, not to mention sidechains.  This schedule is much more conservative than what Gavin has proposed, yet, still would represent an impressive feat for a trustless P2P network.  I don't see any technical limits to achieving it.  Political risks exist, as always, but would be much lower.

Regardless, my view is that we need to explore more of a compromise.  Both of the proposals have issues of one type or another.  Burying our heads and ignoring the issue won't solve it.  And, if there is going to be a fork, which I think is inevitable, sooner is better than later.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
February 04, 2015, 09:48:51 PM
... It is mind boggling there is such a resistance by some.
You are right.
Maybe there is something more going on here.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
February 04, 2015, 09:46:06 PM

So what happens if you are on Chain A or C, and you send your BTC to an exchange that is only using Chain B?
Or you are on Chain B, and you send your BTC to an exchange that is only using Chain A or C?
Thats what I'm referring to. Doesn't the exchange not verify those coin and thus are lost?


The owners of Bitcoin exchanges are not performing chimpanzees at a tea party. If a fork occurred and two chains were similar size then the CEOs of Bitcoin businesses would quickly agree (with Core dev and the mining pools) which chain to use (B) and which chain to ignore (C) , even if this meant suspending trading in the meantime.

This is why Gavin has consulted with many Bitcoin companies/players already, to find out what their view is. He reports that they support scalability by a big margin. Bitcoin businesses are going to want their business model to have the best chance of success, and that does not include crippling the tx throughput on the blockchain which wil also cripple business models.

The rejected chain C will quickly find that the difficulty (40+ billion) is way too high for the devoted "anti" rump of miners clinging to it, and it will take several hours to mine each block. This will get worse as the coinbase rewards can't be sold for decent fiat at any significant exchange. Miners will to drift to the majority chain. It will probably take 1 year for the difficulty to fall on chain C until it is usable. So chain C will need to be forked in order to slash the difficulty for the few users who still want the 1MB lmit.

Just for the record, because this thread has gotten pretty crazy with misunderstandings, FUD, and my inability to properly articulate, but I'm for the fork to raise the limit.
My quote above wasn't meant as an actual question. But i would like to see some chimpanzees sipping tea with crumpets, and they need monocles too. Smiley
I agree with Solex's statements.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
February 04, 2015, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: stan.distortion
network limitations

20MB block / 10 min = 2MB/min = 0.033MB/s, common even on very very basic household connections.

No, that's not true.  Not in the US, at least.  Even high-end connections have caps of less than 400 GB/mo.  2MB/min is 84 GB/mo, per connection.  That means your node gets four peers, maybe.

True , but just to place this in context-
... This math assumes 20MB blocks , which is unlikely to be seen for years as this hardfork just raises the limit so we can process temporary spikes in traffic or have unrestricted apps like lighthouse, twister/open bazaar. Some of those soft caps will charge overage when exceeded and some will simply slow down the connection.

The biggest issue is users who stream a lot of video and torrent probably shouldn't become nodes if the current caps remain in place and aren't increased and if traffic substantially grows where 10-15MB blocks become the norm(unlikely to happen for years)

So the bottom line is that normal broadband users would not be effected immediately but may be effected in the future or not ...

P.S... those interested in the latest sidechain update-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE_elgnIw3M

Federated peg sidechains- 1-3 more months eta, but true sidechains without manual oversight may take another year to start making its way out in the wild to allow testing
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
February 04, 2015, 09:17:50 PM
I don't give a fuck about the "perfect app"  I just want my bitcoin the way it is now. We should push it till it breaks then pick up the peaces and then and only then fix what ever broke.

bitcoin is in an evolving and developing stage. It will not stay the way it is now just because you like it this way.
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