I completely agree that using exchanges as your wallet is an improper way to use Bitcoin, but using them to buy or sell is perfectly acceptable.
Yes, after all, it's not realistic to believe people will only get Bitcoin by mining it or by asking a friend to share some for free/actual goods. You're mentioning using exchanges as wallets, but I was also thinking about wallets in general for a while. We all use them, but it means that we are often again trusting a third party to keep our coins safe (okay, sometimes there's no way this third party can break into our accounts, but it still exists as an intermediary). So basically, unless it's a paper wallet kind of situation, even if one is not using exchanges, one is usually not using Bitcoin the way Satoshi had in mind. 
Topic: Bitcoin: A Medium Of Exchange *Not A Fiat Multiplier* (Read 318 times)
Off course, Bitcoin is not a fiat multiplier and if your point of view towards BTC is like a fiat multiplier then, boss you are underestimating this high voltage digital asset. Bitcoin is a potential currency that can be used as a medium of exchange.
Bitcoin has not been following what its WhitePaper contained because the users and hodlers themselves are not utilizing it as such...what with so many speculations around it. And we could not blame (not even can stop) people to speculate since Bitcoin is a store of value that is very volatile. Just because Satoshi Nakamoto has not yet personally surfaced should not immediately mean he was killed by the government...at that time of his disappearance the government had not yet fully realized the potential of Bitcoin and even up to now it has not yet understood the whole thing. Now, having said that, if there are people that should be blamed for this DEVIANCE from the original vision set for Bitcoin it would be us and no one else.
Satoshi wants bitcoin to be decentralized so it's going to be a good online currency with fast and cheap transaction fee.
However, we can't deny that the government always wants a piece of it, and it continue to grow its popularity, more people are treating bitcoin as a form of investment, rather than an online currency, and that's where the government has to play since there is a risk in investment and without them overseeing bitcoin, this might be widely use for illegal transactions.
However, we can't deny that the government always wants a piece of it, and it continue to grow its popularity, more people are treating bitcoin as a form of investment, rather than an online currency, and that's where the government has to play since there is a risk in investment and without them overseeing bitcoin, this might be widely use for illegal transactions.
If Satoshi didn't want Bitcoin to be a fiat multiplier, he wouldn't make it have fixed supply - that's like just asking people to hoard it and trade. But also the whole point of Bitcoin is to have money that you can use however you like, without others telling you that you are wrong and should use them in some other way. And you don't have to zealously hate fiat money to use Bitcoin, if it was the case, Bitcoin would never see any real adoption.
OP, Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, peer to peer cash, it's written in the white paper. OK!
Well, it's not exactly a medium of exchange yet. That's the problem.
TimeBits wants Bitcoin to be a medium of exchange and unit of account, but this isn't something we can just will into existence. It'll take time and significantly more adoption. As long as fiat money is what merchants, suppliers and consumers predominantly want, Bitcoin users are quite limited in options even if they want to spend/barter their bitcoins directly.
I think centralized exchanges existed during the time of Satoshi and he didn't really say anything about it (I am not sure though).
Maybe he was comfortable with the exchanges because they were owned/controlled by forum members (bitcoin enthusiasts)?
The rise and dominance of centralized exchange is very worrisome. It is one of the most important tools to completely control or destroy much part of crypto world.
Maybe he was comfortable with the exchanges because they were owned/controlled by forum members (bitcoin enthusiasts)?
The rise and dominance of centralized exchange is very worrisome. It is one of the most important tools to completely control or destroy much part of crypto world.
OP, Bitcoin is a medium of exchange, peer to peer cash, it's written in the white paper. OK!
But can I HODL our peer to peer cash, and save it for a rainy day? I don't want to waste it because I might have enough to buy a lambo on 2023. Plus I can always use my worthless fiat-cash for my regular coffee-needs. Can I do that?
But can I HODL our peer to peer cash, and save it for a rainy day? I don't want to waste it because I might have enough to buy a lambo on 2023. Plus I can always use my worthless fiat-cash for my regular coffee-needs. Can I do that?
bitcoin gaining value has turned into a big part of bitcoin and there is no way of avoiding that. and this means there will be a portion of the people involved that want it at as a "fiat multiplier". and it will only get worse. if you think things are bad now that price has gone up to $10k, just wait until price reaches $100k and above. you will see how there will be even more people wanting to "multiply their fiat".
Or to actually escape inflation, simple as that. The economy driven by debt mentality will have to give way to an economy driven by savings, which is a phenomenon of deflation. In fact some people will gladly pay the (full reserve) banks to keep their money safe.
While bitcoin is gaining value overtime, it should gain less value as time passes. The biggest gains are probably behind already (ie. from 3¢ to 10k), even if it reaches 100k this is a single zero, compare that to the time it took going from 0.1 to 100, which is three zeroes, or 100 to 10k which is two.
So it all fits in the predicted Logarithmic curve. It can never go flat because fiats are all losing value due to (mistaken) global monetary policy.
But suppose you compared bitcoin value against gold. Even there (albeit much much more slowly) it would gain a little value. Because while gold reserves might still appear, bitcoin production is fixed, and some people are even losing them forever.
So try to imagine if bitcoin can gain value vs gold over time, how much more can gain against inflation induced fiat worldwide?
bitcoin gaining value has turned into a big part of bitcoin and there is no way of avoiding that. and this means there will be a portion of the people involved that want it at as a "fiat multiplier". and it will only get worse. if you think things are bad now that price has gone up to $10k, just wait until price reaches $100k and above. you will see how there will be even more people wanting to "multiply their fiat".
Interesting, I've never thought of a Bitcoin transaction record as being an electronic bill of exchange, but I suspect that it is in the eyes of the law. A bill of exchange is an unconditional order to transfer funds from one person to another. "They" just have to recognise that Bitcoin is funds.
Bitcoin: A Medium of Exchange
Did you guys ever think they killed satoshi and turned his project into something it was not meant to be?
Here is the first sentence of the white paper:
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
So the exchange you use, is not peer to peer you trust a 3rd party with your bitcoins, The exchange is also a finical institution (so you pissed on satoshi`s grave 2x) not to mention you trade if for fiat which is created by another financial institution. (so 3x piss on his grave) just in the first sentence of the white paper.
What is wrong with you guys? Do you not understand bitcoin was put here to compete with $cam $lavery unlimited monopoly money, not be a measure of it and facilitate it?
Seriously you are all a bunch of dummy heads.
https://twitter.com/binance
https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1155213526736285699
https://twitter.com/DYORPodcast/status/1155115419784679431
https://twitter.com/Excellion/status/1134346501356785664
Why has satoshi not traded any of his btc of fiat? because he understands that they have unlimited money supply and he has limited, so if he trades they get all of his supply for free, not matter if 1 btc = 1000000000000000 USD they still get all of his shit for free.
Also USD is backed by nothing so
1 btc = 1000 USD or 1 btc = 2000 USD is the same thing.
1 x 0 = 0
1000 x 0 = 0
1000000000000 x 0 = 0
Did you guys ever think they killed satoshi and turned his project into something it was not meant to be?
Here is the first sentence of the white paper:
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
So the exchange you use, is not peer to peer you trust a 3rd party with your bitcoins, The exchange is also a finical institution (so you pissed on satoshi`s grave 2x) not to mention you trade if for fiat which is created by another financial institution. (so 3x piss on his grave) just in the first sentence of the white paper.
What is wrong with you guys? Do you not understand bitcoin was put here to compete with $cam $lavery unlimited monopoly money, not be a measure of it and facilitate it?
Seriously you are all a bunch of dummy heads.
https://twitter.com/binance
https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1155213526736285699
https://twitter.com/DYORPodcast/status/1155115419784679431
https://twitter.com/Excellion/status/1134346501356785664
Why has satoshi not traded any of his btc of fiat? because he understands that they have unlimited money supply and he has limited, so if he trades they get all of his supply for free, not matter if 1 btc = 1000000000000000 USD they still get all of his shit for free.
Also USD is backed by nothing so
1 btc = 1000 USD or 1 btc = 2000 USD is the same thing.
1 x 0 = 0
1000 x 0 = 0
1000000000000 x 0 = 0
The whole theory is based on assumptions that have no reason. Satoshi was killed? Alive? Who actually? How old? What it looks like? It is not even known whether or not the gender and the company!
It may not be easy to get to the grave of someone I don't know.
Let's get to the other thing. Satoshi never sold bitcoins. As far as we know and until the time he disappeared. We don't know what happened after that. And yes, he wouldn't be able to tell Bitcoin to people in any way if he had no monetary value. It is very important that 1 BTC is $ 10,000 now! Don't underestimate this and CEXs!
And the math is simple.
1BTC= 1x10.000$ = 10.000$
10 BTC= 10x10.000$ = 100.000$
Your calculation is just assumption! Mine is based on trading data. So trust me, 1 BTC worths about 10K$. You can decide if you don't want sell it. Or which price you can sell.
The problem is, people have never had a payment option or currency that rise in value over time. This is a dream come true for many people, because they are used to having a financial system that slowly destroys their wealth and their buying power.
People are also greedy by nature and they will quickly realize that it would be better to hoard a token if it would possibly multiply it's value. Just like people trading currencies on the Forex markets, Bitcoin can also be traded as a commodity, so it's not any different from any other currency.
People are also greedy by nature and they will quickly realize that it would be better to hoard a token if it would possibly multiply it's value. Just like people trading currencies on the Forex markets, Bitcoin can also be traded as a commodity, so it's not any different from any other currency.
where does it say in the whitepaper that people must not ever touch fiat money, nor use financial institutions to buy/sell bitcoin? oh that's right, the whitepaper is about the design of bitcoin, not the destruction of fiat money......
Uhh, I guess you missed the 2nd sentence.
why are you using satoshi's writings as support for your position? he obviously wasn't nearly as fanatical as you. his words show that he supported free markets. the only person in the room who thinks bitcoin shouldn't trade against fiat is you.
Because, it clearly says in the first sentence of the white paper, you do not need to go through financial institution.
that's describing the design of the bitcoin network. trading bitcoins for other currencies is external to that.
if you don't mine bitcoins, the only way to obtain them is to buy them. by the same token, miners need to pay overhead costs in fiat money since landlords, utilities, etc generally don't accept bitcoin.
When you give your btc to a exchange you are going through a financial institution which is not p2p and trading bitcoin for a financial institution`s money supply.
I`ll stick to what the whitepaper says, not the hacked forum account.
I`ll stick to what the whitepaper says, not the hacked forum account.
satoshi's account was hacked in 2010?
where does it say in the whitepaper that people must not ever touch fiat money, nor use financial institutions to buy/sell bitcoin? oh that's right, the whitepaper is about the design of bitcoin, not the destruction of fiat money......
what did satoshi mean when he said "anyone wanting to transfer wealth over a long distance could buy some, transmit it, and have the recipient sell it"? you think he was talking about buying for bushels of apples and selling for bushels of apples?
So I own a farm here, none of the prices are relevant to fiat in which I sell my fruit 
I sell my fruit for bitcoin and duration
I sell my fruit for bitcoin and durationcool story, mr. farmer. do you have a stand on the side of a country road where you sell your fruit for bitcoins? maybe a "we accept bitcoin" sign at the farmer's market? and if you want to buy 10 bitcoins, how would you do that?
in the real world, people use fiat money. and people (at least retail investors) who want to buy/sell bitcoins go where the liquidity and the best price is, ie exchanges.
Some people might use bitcoin to multiply fiat... But some others use fiat to multiply bitcoin. It works both ways.
You are correct that fiat means going thru the system, while Bitcoin is ideally used without ever going to the system, in fact you give a good example with your produce.
BUT, are you going to keep those prices if the relative bitcoin price goes 100k USD or so?
In my country you need eight years to rise 0.05 btc (if BTC were to magically froze at 9.5k USD) doing a full time job. I don't think Americans earn 237+ USD per hour tho... But we do earn 5 USD a month, perhaps 10 if you manage to get a very good job, or two jobs as some people do. Others simply flee the country or find something online that pays them in not our garbage fiat.
I could even try to find the price of an apple. These are exotic imported fruits that come from template weather countries, as Apple trees don't like the tropics very much... On the other-side, we often get free mangoes.
You are correct that fiat means going thru the system, while Bitcoin is ideally used without ever going to the system, in fact you give a good example with your produce.
BUT, are you going to keep those prices if the relative bitcoin price goes 100k USD or so?
In my country you need eight years to rise 0.05 btc (if BTC were to magically froze at 9.5k USD) doing a full time job. I don't think Americans earn 237+ USD per hour tho... But we do earn 5 USD a month, perhaps 10 if you manage to get a very good job, or two jobs as some people do. Others simply flee the country or find something online that pays them in not our garbage fiat.
I could even try to find the price of an apple. These are exotic imported fruits that come from template weather countries, as Apple trees don't like the tropics very much... On the other-side, we often get free mangoes.
Did you guys ever think they killed satoshi and turned his project into something it was not meant to be?
there doesn't have to be some evil forces hard at work to make people want that profit (in fiat terms). it is the people themselves who saw the gigantic rise and slowly forgotten the real reasons why bitcoin was created. a quick look at the past 10 years can show you that price has gone up a lot. if we assume initial price was $0.01 then price has gone up 200 million percent! that is 55k% per day. such rise is bound to attract "speculators" who want their fiat multiplied.
BUT none of that changes the nature of bitcoin from being a currency though.
I completely agree that using exchanges as your wallet is an improper way to use Bitcoin, but using them to buy or sell is perfectly acceptable. Peer-to-peer Bitcoin trading is preferable for sure, but even then, most trades between strangers still go through escrows of some sort. I'd also like to note that he doesn't attack financial institutions anywhere on the whitepaper; he only said that it could be time consuming and expensive to go through middlemen, most of which happen to be financial institutions in online commerce scenarios.
It's just money at the end of the day, and spending it on whatever, even other kinds of money, is completely up to the users' prerogative. I don't think Satoshi would see it as pissing on his grave or anywhere near that drastic.
It's just money at the end of the day, and spending it on whatever, even other kinds of money, is completely up to the users' prerogative. I don't think Satoshi would see it as pissing on his grave or anywhere near that drastic.
your items which were bought with fiat? whose supply lines are all paid for with fiat? lol.
So I own a farm here, none of the prices are relevant to fiat in which I sell my fruit
I sell my fruit for bitcoin and duration (the fiat price is irrelevant to me, it could be $2000 a coin or $20,000 I sell a bushel of apples for .05 btc atm, or 2 hours of your time), I have no clue what the other farmers are doing, but I think they are all getting played trading there limited time and creations for a unlimited bull$hit $cam. If you think about it, that is kind of a good deal, a bushel of apples for 2 hours. Most people give up 2 hours for 2 meals, I give you 30 meals for 2 hours or .05 btc.
yah your fiat can suck my balls.
why are you using satoshi's writings as support for your position? he obviously wasn't nearly as fanatical as you. his words show that he supported free markets. the only person in the room who thinks bitcoin shouldn't trade against fiat is you.
Because, it clearly says in the first sentence of the white paper, you do not need to go through financial institution. Who creates USD? a financial institution. When you give your btc to a exchange you are going through a financial institution which is not p2p and trading bitcoin for a financial institution`s money supply.
In case you missed it
Here is the first sentence of the white paper:
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
I`ll stick to what the whitepaper says, not the hacked forum account.
No, he was not as fanatical as me, he was more than me.
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