Topic: Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat - page 18. (Read 67204 times)

In 2007 there was a major financial implosion. The reason it happened hasn't changed. The solution was to print up a bunch more cash and distribute it so the whole thing wouldn't topple.

So not only are we not out of the woods yet, all we've actually done to address any of the reason for this implosion is put a band aid on it.

It won't stop the hemorrhage.

Money that expires is a non-starter. No one wants money that suddenly expires. It adds another thing to worry about in their already hectic lives.

Each of the benefits you enumerated either are illusionary or can be achieved in other ways.

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Btw, the problem in Greece now is that the strong Euro enabled Germany to keep your tourism and labor priced too high, while they could undercut your industry with their more efficient industry. So your country added debt to compensate for a lack of revenue. Bankster predator Goldman Sachs helped your corrupt government hide this and keep the data off your government's public ledger. And you tell us to use a public ledger which they will always find a way to game theory using financialization instruments?!!

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/04/06/inflation-is-not-always-caused-by-change-in-money-supply-deflation-is-engulfing-europe/


I don't want to have an off-topic discussion about European economics in this thread. Post a link to another thread if you want to discuss that topic further.

My gosh are you really still trying to convince us to put lipstick on a pig.

This will be the third or fourth time we've refuted this from you in this thread.

We don't want our private life on no public ledger for society to track us with. Period.

It is an asymmetric weapon for Max Weber's canonical definition of governance as the entity that holds a "monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force" to use against us. It will not give us any information we can use against those who capture the power vacuum of governance, because since the dawn of mankind they own the regulators and enforcers. This is an Iron Law of Political Economics.

The police have been fighting crime since the dawn of mankind even though cash was anonymous and they didn't have a public ledger of all transactions.

Europe has a very low incarceration rate. Why? Because the people are well fed with debt. They were happy. But now this will all change as their debt levels are too high. Violence and crime will return.

A public ledger has nothing to do with the level of crime and deterrence. The police are in fact always the last to arrive on the crime scene.

Please don't raise this point again, unless you have some reasonable counter-point. This isn't a marketing thread as a repetition contest. It is an analytical analysis thread for smart people to figure out the truth.

I am not discouraging you from posting. But you don't win arguments by repetition. You win based on the validity and acuity of your analysis. I do change my mind when someone presents me with a superior logic.

I personally feel that gravity-life-Intelligence follow some common entropic law
That states that if there is an Energy/informational potential systems will arise that maximize the entropy production.
This is how they escape the 2 Law, be producing more entropy in the system to balance their structure.
So a common way to produce more entropy is to
Get things together to react/collide as much as posible (gravity)
maximize the systems interface, by fractal "surfaces", (life)
Or break into a new dimension (intelligence)

Regarding an your Coin you might be interested in an Idea I had discussed here
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4348065
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4375345
about using a rolling blockchain that invalidates older blocks as it creates new blocks

The benefits could be
1. Early adopters get a fair share of value without becoming parasites and Late adopters have a chance in the economy
2. Wealth accumulation is discouraged (Hodling)
3. Blockchain database size is bounded
4. Lost/forgoten/orphaned coins are eventualy reclaimed
5. Will be easier to get accepted by goverments
6. It is Forward looking as those who actively participate in the economy get rewarded
7. Users would have  incentive to shuffle their wallets as much as possible to minimize loses but at the same time increase their anonymity
 

Other ramifications of this conceptualization are that I doubt it is possible for human being to eradicate themselves or run out of energy/resources

We are part of a natural process and will remain extant until there is no longer any need for that physical process to occur ie the heat death of the universe

humankind will go to the stars, and in the process, destroy a lot of exergy 

The inevitable social and economic processes we are starting to uncover by exploring some of the items in this, and related, threads is merely one small step along the way.

Another ramification is that most of the stuff we think we know about reality is wrong. But thinking about it and finding objective truth is going to also burn up a hell of a lot of exergy as well. Everything serves this ultimate purpose. Entropy is the spring that powers the movements of this "swiss watch" we call the material universe.

In reference to the article "Zero Marginal Thinking: Jeremy Rifkin gets it all wrong" excerpted from the blog "Armed and Dangerous":

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5558&cpage=1#comment-479716

Self organization seems counter-entropic at first glance but it is not:

http://www.scaruffi.com/nature/biology.html
The most efficient destroyer of exergy is the human brain.

Conclusion: Transition to knowledge/information capital economy serves the higher purpose of destroying exergy and thus degrading energy differentials.

(also that argument is invalid)

This is an extremist point of view, and for you to be right requires financial implosions, which has not happened yet and all things remaining as they are today, Banks will adapt.

I think Bitcoin is most valuable with some global financial chaos, but not too much because then you have war and Bitcoin won't survive real world war. I don't believe in a goldilocks view that we will see the perfect storm of financial chaos to drive Bitcoin adoption, but not so much that world war won't destroy the opportunity.


While micro-payments are interesting, again i would say lets revisit this in 10 years when Bitcoin has viable solutions for the unplugged and unbanked. Bitcoin is 10 years from having a mainstream usable solution to any of this IMHO>


Maybe some day we'll "learn", but for now bitcoin is merely a speculative asset. Again I think any txn adoption curves and any talk about taking over global payment systems is not relevant to short term pricing.

The ONLY thing driving short terms pricing is speculation. That is all. I think this will remain the case for at least 5 more years. The most you will see in value on speculation alone is 10k-50k because there will be other opportunities that represent a bigger return than Bitcoin after $10k.

That only changes if bitcoin miraculously navigates the payment minefield and become a true alternative to the credit card, pay pal, and the coin or printed dollar. 

I do think it would be miraculous for Bitcoin to evolve its txn ecosystem fast enough to compete with a world that is already responding. How can a distributed organization compete with decisive actions of orgnanized actors in the existing txn world? Distributed systems are great for functioning without central authority but they are terrible at creating killer-app type strategies. You basically have to hope existing systems collapse for Bitcoin to have any chance of ever taking over as a mainstream transaction system.

Let's discuss about Mastercoin tomorrow. I need to sleep first.

They didn't have credit cards back then, so I can't be sure the same attitudes will result. And the developing world doesn't have much personal debt so will still be ready to adopt credit cards. So it is a mixed bag.

I hadn't previously considered this, but wow.

Yeah. This is true. I've observed this effect personally on many occasions.

I think the centralized infrastructure that is evolving around btc also serves to slow adoption. It has taken on the role of gatekeeper into the new information-based economic model that is developing.

The purpose of a gate is to regulate entry, so this contradiction with the stated purpose of cryptocurrency is another indicator of the purpose that is actually intended.

It has to be a regulatory tool.

The countermeasure is an anti-regulatory solution.

Some of the characteristics I can imagine that would be helpful:

strong anonymity
ubiquitous mining
covert introduction

can anyone think of others?

I said no personal attacks. I should be fair and let you know who I banned and why. You can read his drivel at the following link:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6095773

The interface between btc and fiat systems is ridiculous, Not the fault of btc of course, yet it is still a kafkaesque headache due to identification requirements etc.

Peter Thiel's Tesla Motors depends on government subsidies to survive.

Telsa's Elon Musk proposes to imprison us in steel pipes and transport us between cities inside a vacuum. Massively expensive public works project. And what happens when someone bombs it? It is vulnerable because it is centralized infrastructure. More reasons for Homelust ScrewUrity to insert their hands down on our pants or watch us nude in the observing room.


I would much prefer my flying car - a decentralized and free market approach. Hey you see it is a reality already.

If we can have highways along the ground, why can't computer guidance systems work for highways in the air for congested regions. Collision avoidance systems can work, because Google has cars that drive themselves all over the USA where there are many more types of obstacles to contend with.

P.S. The TSA was so humiliated by that linked article above, that they have stopped the scanners for those who are Pre-Checked, meaning they can use that as a weapon against our privacy gradually ramping up over time the requirements needed to receive the "we won't harass" status. WTF?! happened to my birth country. Good riddance!

Europeans you may think you are safe, but you are not. It is coming to your shores too. Just wait until the economy turns down after Sept. 2015.

A more apposite phrase is "inexorable decline" which I employed in my seminal 2010 essay The Rise of Knowledge wherein I first explored this concept. You can find my sources there for the data documenting those claims. Also James A. Donald provided more sources specifically look at copper production since electrical wiring use has not declined.

I have read the post and have reflected some, here are some ramblings.

I think the point that bitcoin has an adoption problem is way over looked.  Bitcoin has a huge adoption problem.  If it was going to be big, it would have already done it by now.  Seriously.  It has been around for 5 years.  In the tech world, it is a grandfather.  

Here is a chart of M-Pesa verses Bitcoin.  This is what it looks like when a successful platform takes off and gains traction.  


What has M-Pesa done then?  For starters, it has appeal to the points of interest that matter.  As mentioned in the original post, bitcoin really only works for white, philosophically slanted, techno males.  In Africa, M-Pesa appeals to all normal consumers.  Furthermore, the governments and the large banks and the businesses all have a reason to adopt it.  M-Pesa has taken over half of Kenya's economy by meeting the needs of the points of interest.  Bitcoin just isn't meeting needs.  

I don't need to explain why businesses and people don't really want to adopt bitcoin.  It is slow, difficult to use.... and current existing systems for the average consumer work pretty well.  For bitcoin to be bigger than Visa, it needs to be better and that simply isn't the case and won't ever be the case.  Case 1: I need an extra computer, need to put special programs on it, need to put bitcoin in cold storage and if I ever spend a bitcoin, then transfer the money to a new account and have that in cold storage.  Case 2: Ask my bank to mail me a credit card.  It does, now I can pretty much make purchases around the world instantly, oh yeah, with insurance.  Are you kidding me?

For bitcoin to become popular, it would need to be a platform that the government likes, the businesses like, and the people like.  In this way, it isn't doing so well.  Governments are weary, they should be.  Governments are legitmized more or less by three factors.  They control the money in that area and help regulate the economy.  They provide security via police and army.  They provide social services.  Take away the money, and now governments aren't nearly as powerful.  

But.... one thing about bitcoin is amazing.  It is the blockchain.  In this way, a much better financial system can be built.  Lets think for a minute.  In a thousand years from now, I gather we won't have money in the way we do know.  Who knows?  But think about 20 or 50 years from now.  Can you imagine anybody using anything but a new and revolutionary technology to pay for things.  It surely won't be what we have now.  It will be digital, it will be safe, it will be instantaneous, it will be efficient and so on and so on.  It will be better than the system we have now in every single way.  The blockchain at some point very well might be a part of that.  

With the advent of the blockchain, governments and banks are being faced with a dammed if I do, and dammed if I don't scenerio.  Changes are coming.  New forms of digital payment will be safer, faster, cheaper, and more efficient and the first one's to adapt will see benefits the first.  But eventually, as I mentioned sooner or later they will be weakened.  

Some people say bitcoin can't be beat, that it has the first mover advantage.  I think that is silly.  I have written about this before.  Visa/Mastercard does more transactions in 5 minutes than bitcoin did in 2013.  Furthermore, The bitcoin market cap right now at the point of writing this is a little less than 6 billion.  That is nothing.  Facebook paid 19 billion for whatsapp.  Whatsapp!!!!!  A free text messaging app has totally outclassed bitcoin in value.  Essentially, what I am saying is bitcoin has a 0.001% market share in the world's economy (not sure on the numbers there, just made them up, but the point remains the same).  Bitcoin hasn't been widely adopted and won't be, but it will lead to a 2.0 platform or 3.0 platform that will be much better than what we have now.  

The 2.0 platform that wins is one that appeals to governments, appeals to businesses, and appeals to the consumer.  For instance, bitcoin needs to beat the credit card model.  Right now my credit card gives me money I don't have!  It gives me insurance if a purchase is bad, and it gives me miles I can use to buy free plane tickets!  And it does it all in seconds.  I pay my balance each month and pay no interest.  It is a big win for me as a consumer.  (Now, I realize that businesses are sticking it to me with higher prices because of this, but that isn't what they average consumer sees).  The government wins with credit cards because now there is a digital trail in which businesses have to pay taxes on.  Businesses ultimately win because some people spend money they wouldn't have had in the first place.  Please tell me how bitcoin can make the consumer, the business and the government happy?  I am guessing it can't or it already would have.  In someways it provides some anonymity, but we all know that isn't exactly the case.  It is good for sending money overseas for sure, but that isn't going to be enough.  

Now let me give you a hypothetical 2.0 system.  It would be one that allows the US government to act like coinbase and sell it's dollars into cryptocurrency.  It would be a system that charges no fees so that businesses would like it, and it would have to be one that consumers would like, maybe giving them anonymity and security.  We simply don't have that right now, but I think there are lots of people working hard to make that come true.  If such a platform is made, but with even more appeal to business, government, and consumers, it will be widely adapted.  If that platform can even get a 1% market share, it will be much larger than bitcoin hands down.  
 

In a networked services oriented economy, getting your business transactions transparent, is IMHO an absolute must for free market to work optimally
Remember you can also see what all your competitors are doing also, are the gains not greater than the loses?.
But that doesn't mean you can easily identify who, all you may know is that he is a competitor if anonymity or pseudonymity is working.
 

With services like these you can't expect Bitcoin to go anywhere anytime soon.

http://www.tested.com/tech/concepts/460601-where-we-went-wrong-buying-bitcoin-atm/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnm4xFC2xNo