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Topic: Bitcoin anonymity - page 2. (Read 3289 times)

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 22, 2015, 04:25:00 PM
#66
My comment above was limited to relative Bitcoin anonymity.  Car thieves will typically go after cars that are not locked (well, yes, Ferraris too).

Different kinds of threats and threat levels require different responses.  We all know what happened to Anne Frank.

GUNS and such have their role too.

Yes, and that's why crypto is, as far as export controls are concerned, classified as a munition.

Exercise your 2nd Amendment RKBA by owning and using both guns and Monero.

In the coming digital warfare, Monero is the equivalent of a Barrett rifle for purposes of reaching out and touching someone from a safe distance.   Wink


Well, yes, but, Survivalism 101 teaches us that you do not have to be able to outrun the bear in most situations.  You only have to be able to outrun some of your fellows.  So unless you are a Big Fish (lots of BTC) or leave your BTC easy to steal (or the info: who you buy from, BTC balance, etc.), mixing BTC is a "good enough solution", especially for the C-students among us (like me).

A .50?  Yow, even a .338 Lapua with muzzle brake would probably tear my arm off at my scrawny shoulder:

http://onlylongrange.com/bad-news-338-lapua-magnum/

A .338 is what Chris Kyle wound up shooting near the end of his career.  He liked the .338 because it shoots flatter.  I believe the Brit who has the world record took out the Taliban from 8100' used a .338.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 22, 2015, 03:58:39 PM
#65
My comment above was limited to relative Bitcoin anonymity.  Car thieves will typically go after cars that are not locked (well, yes, Ferraris too).

Different kinds of threats and threat levels require different responses.  We all know what happened to Anne Frank.

GUNS and such have their role too.

Yes, and that's why crypto is, as far as export controls are concerned, classified as a munition.

Exercise your 2nd Amendment RKBA by owning and using both guns and Monero.

In the coming digital warfare, Monero is the equivalent of a Barrett rifle for purposes of reaching out and touching someone from a safe distance.   Wink
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 22, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
#64
...

For me, all I care about is anonymity at the level of casual hackers (etc.), those who would try to steal "EASY BTC", unprotected.  Like burglars who choose easy targets...

I have no evidence, but my *guess* is that TPTB (IRS, perhaps other .govs) could crack mixers.  But, one would have to be a target.  Don't want to be a target?  Don't do illegal things.  Smaller, but more, transactions might help too.

The countermeasures we have right now are enough to get "Pretty Good Privacy" in that sense, anonymity vs. casual thieves.  Mixing BTC seems to be "good enough".  bitmixer.io and blockchain.info's SharedCoin service are enough for me.

*   *   *

justusranvier's link above is excellent for those ready for this level of technical understanding, as is iCEBREAKER's, thank you both for the links.

https://github.com/justusranvier/wallet-ratings/blob/2015-2/2015-2/threat%20model.wiki

http://crypsys.mmci.uni-saarland.de/projects/CoinShuffle/coinshuffle.pdf

Glad you like the links.  Now you are ready for the red orange pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVm1dMn5Ks

Excuse my Godwin, but "Don't want to be a target?  Don't do illegal things." didn't work out so well for Anne Frank and several hundred million other victims of government sponsored/facilitated/catalyzed murder over the last century.


My comment above was limited to relative Bitcoin anonymity.  Car thieves will typically go after cars that are not locked (well, yes, Ferraris too).

Different kinds of threats and threat levels require different responses.  We all know what happened to Anne Frank.

GUNS and such have their role too.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 500
July 22, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
#63
Well the only way to be more anonymous when dealing is using a mixer like bitmix and bitcoinfoggy as far as i know,
when an exchange was hacked the stolen bitcoin went to this bitcoinfoggy.
And the coins can't be tracked anymore
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
July 22, 2015, 03:09:55 PM
#62
If i use a different bitcoin address for every transaction, it is still possible to correlate my addresses?

If i leave one address here in my signature (for tip, lets say) and this address only serves this purpose, i will never use it in any other transaction; it is possible to correlate it with other of my addresses?

I am reading that bitcoin is not so anonymous like people think it is, BUT what are the possible falws here? I know that every transaction is public, but if "they" cant correlate transactions/addresses with each other, they have nothing, right?

Explain like i am five please  Cool

Thank you
Darkwallet will probably do what you are looking for but it's still in beta.
but I think most people are happy with the pseudo anonymity offered by coinjoin
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
July 22, 2015, 02:53:58 PM
#61
...

For me, all I care about is anonymity at the level of casual hackers (etc.), those who would try to steal "EASY BTC", unprotected.  Like burglars who choose easy targets...

I have no evidence, but my *guess* is that TPTB (IRS, perhaps other .govs) could crack mixers.  But, one would have to be a target.  Don't want to be a target?  Don't do illegal things.  Smaller, but more, transactions might help too.

The countermeasures we have right now are enough to get "Pretty Good Privacy" in that sense, anonymity vs. casual thieves.  Mixing BTC seems to be "good enough".  bitmixer.io and blockchain.info's SharedCoin service are enough for me.

*   *   *

justusranvier's link above is excellent for those ready for this level of technical understanding, as is iCEBREAKER's, thank you both for the links.

https://github.com/justusranvier/wallet-ratings/blob/2015-2/2015-2/threat%20model.wiki

http://crypsys.mmci.uni-saarland.de/projects/CoinShuffle/coinshuffle.pdf

Glad you like the links.  Now you are ready for the red orange pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVm1dMn5Ks

Excuse my Godwin, but "Don't want to be a target?  Don't do illegal things." didn't work out so well for Anne Frank and several hundred million other victims of government sponsored/facilitated/catalyzed murder over the last century.
sr. member
Activity: 379
Merit: 250
July 22, 2015, 02:51:33 PM
#60
Monero and BTC compliment each other well. I suspect a small number of cryptocurrencies will dominate the market in the future. I've read some posters here claim that Monero could overtake Bitcoin someday due to it's privacy capabilities.
sr. member
Activity: 414
Merit: 250
July 22, 2015, 02:49:13 PM
#59
Bitcoin is not anonymous, it reveals your IP when you make transaction and its easy to correlate your addresses :/
In future i think it will be improved by protocol or 3rd party.

Lol, use a proxy then problem solved. IPs are the least of your worries. Bitcoin is anon in that you have no idea who the person is. If I send money to you you don't know my real name or personal details.
Anonymity is important, but if you honestly think proxy/Tor can stop LE or government surveillance, you're in for a rough surprise.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
July 22, 2015, 02:43:29 PM
#58

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable

and you think that process is simple enough to population in general?? to bitcoin become success, processes MUST be simple. Nobody wants to learn how to mix, etc etc that is for geeks only! And geeks only wont make bitcoin a success!

banks, actually provide all the privacy common user wants. bitcoin dont.

how can a third party provide you pricacy, this is an oxymoron you know, in the exact time that your personal info are handled by someone else, you can't talk about privacy anymore

in the future anonimity with bitcoin will be made less troublesome for sure, for now if someone really want to stay anonimous he need to work a bit, i'm sure that if someone really have a reason to stay anonimous, he become suddenly a geek, you can be assured about this

it is not to stay anonymous like im doing anything illegal!! i just want my privacy!! do you understand this?

and no! nobody (normal people) is going to become a geek to use bitcoin. people just keep using fiat money; it is the easiest way.

i am not a geek, i am not a criminal and i STILL want my privacy from my neighbors and friends. banks provide me this. bitcoin don't.

I agree that anonymity is important or it's maybe better to use term financial privacy.

What if one day Bitcoin gets so big that companies will pay their workers in BTC. At current state, this would not be possible since everyone in company would know how much their colleagues make. This is not desirable. For this, we do need finacial privacy.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
July 22, 2015, 02:26:15 PM
#57

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable

and you think that process is simple enough to population in general?? to bitcoin become success, processes MUST be simple. Nobody wants to learn how to mix, etc etc that is for geeks only! And geeks only wont make bitcoin a success!

banks, actually provide all the privacy common user wants. bitcoin dont.

how can a third party provide you pricacy, this is an oxymoron you know, in the exact time that your personal info are handled by someone else, you can't talk about privacy anymore

in the future anonimity with bitcoin will be made less troublesome for sure, for now if someone really want to stay anonimous he need to work a bit, i'm sure that if someone really have a reason to stay anonimous, he become suddenly a geek, you can be assured about this

it is not to stay anonymous like im doing anything illegal!! i just want my privacy!! do you understand this?

and no! nobody (normal people) is going to become a geek to use bitcoin. people just keep using fiat money; it is the easiest way.

i am not a geek, i am not a criminal and i STILL want my privacy from my neighbors and friends. banks provide me this. bitcoin don't.

want the anonimity, does not mean at all that you want to do illegal stuff, like satoshi said, what if i want to keep my privacy when i watch porn, because i don't want that my wife finds out?

you can't have your privacy iif you let another person in charge of your security ,no matter how you say it, it's an oxymoron....
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 22, 2015, 02:19:29 PM
#56
...

For me, all I care about is anonymity at the level of casual hackers (etc.), those who would try to steal "EASY BTC", unprotected.  Like burglars who choose easy targets...

I have no evidence, but my *guess* is that TPTB (IRS, perhaps other .govs) could crack mixers.  But, one would have to be a target.  Don't want to be a target?  Don't do illegal things.  Smaller, but more, transactions might help too.

The countermeasures we have right now are enough to get "Pretty Good Privacy" in that sense, anonymity vs. casual thieves.  Mixing BTC seems to be "good enough".  bitmixer.io and blockchain.info's SharedCoin service are enough for me.

*   *   *

justusranvier's link above is excellent for those ready for this level of technical understanding, as is iCEBREAKER's, thank you both for the links.

https://github.com/justusranvier/wallet-ratings/blob/2015-2/2015-2/threat%20model.wiki

http://crypsys.mmci.uni-saarland.de/projects/CoinShuffle/coinshuffle.pdf
sr. member
Activity: 450
Merit: 250
July 22, 2015, 01:38:14 PM
#55
With banks, only law enforcement (LE) can trace your (non-cash) fiat transactions.
With Bitcoin, everyody on the planet with just an internet connection and a copy of the blockchain is the LE.


Kinda true, but not really. For someone to bet the LE the guy would need clear proof that the address belongs to a real, particular person which is a very hard thing to prove.
Monero is great but I don't see it ever replacing BTC, you need a certain level of pseudo anonymity for something like that to work.
Is it true tho that Monero seems to be more e-cash than BTC is. But with both currencies, as soon as you go into fiat you lose anonimity, and with both currencies, if you stay within crypto it's pretty damn anonymous.

Think about where crypto-currencies are going though. The aim is eventually for users to stay in crypto, and not ever need to convert to FIAT.

In this scenario (I know it's a long way off) you surely need the crypto-currency to have the same fungibility as cash. Monero has this. Bitcoin does not.

Blockchain analysis is already performed, and some bitcoin is not accepted on particular exchanges because it has apparently been used for illicit purposes. I read of a service where you can buy freshly mined bitcoin at higher than the going rate = Bitcoin is not fungible.

Bitcoin is great, but relying on extra services, sidechains, mixing or whatever means trust will probably be required. Trust...  That's not true cash-like fungibility. For this, you need a trustless system like CryptoNote in Monero, IMO.

EDIT: corrected CryptoNight to CryptoNote
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
error
July 22, 2015, 12:03:53 PM
#54

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable

and you think that process is simple enough to population in general?? to bitcoin become success, processes MUST be simple. Nobody wants to learn how to mix, etc etc that is for geeks only! And geeks only wont make bitcoin a success!

banks, actually provide all the privacy common user wants. bitcoin dont.

how can a third party provide you pricacy, this is an oxymoron you know, in the exact time that your personal info are handled by someone else, you can't talk about privacy anymore

in the future anonimity with bitcoin will be made less troublesome for sure, for now if someone really want to stay anonimous he need to work a bit, i'm sure that if someone really have a reason to stay anonimous, he become suddenly a geek, you can be assured about this

it is not to stay anonymous like im doing anything illegal!! i just want my privacy!! do you understand this?

and no! nobody (normal people) is going to become a geek to use bitcoin. people just keep using fiat money; it is the easiest way.

i am not a geek, i am not a criminal and i STILL want my privacy from my neighbors and friends. banks provide me this. bitcoin don't.
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
July 22, 2015, 10:03:50 AM
#53
With banks, only law enforcement (LE) can trace your (non-cash) fiat transactions.
With Bitcoin, everyody on the planet with just an internet connection and a copy of the blockchain is the LE.


Kinda true, but not really. For someone to bet the LE the guy would need clear proof that the address belongs to a real, particular person which is a very hard thing to prove.
Monero is great but I don't see it ever replacing BTC, you need a certain level of pseudo anonimity for something like that to work.
Is it true tho that Monero seems to be more e-cash than BTC is. But with both currencies, as soon as you go into fiat you lose anonimity, and with both currencies, if you stay within crypto it's pretty damn anonymous.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
July 22, 2015, 10:00:24 AM
#52

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable

and you think that process is simple enough to population in general?? to bitcoin become success, processes MUST be simple. Nobody wants to learn how to mix, etc etc that is for geeks only! And geeks only wont make bitcoin a success!

banks, actually provide all the privacy common user wants. bitcoin dont.

how can a third party provide you pricacy, this is an oxymoron you know, in the exact time that your personal info are handled by someone else, you can't talk about privacy anymore

in the future anonimity with bitcoin will be made less troublesome for sure, for now if someone really want to stay anonimous he need to work a bit, i'm sure that if someone really have a reason to stay anonimous, he become suddenly a geek, you can be assured about this
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
July 22, 2015, 08:52:23 AM
#51
With banks, only law enforcement (LE) can trace your (non-cash) fiat transactions.
With Bitcoin, everyody on the planet with just an internet connection and a copy of the blockchain is the LE.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
error
July 22, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
#50

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable

and you think that process is simple enough to population in general?? to bitcoin become success, processes MUST be simple. Nobody wants to learn how to mix, etc etc that is for geeks only! And geeks only wont make bitcoin a success!

banks, actually provide all the privacy common user wants. bitcoin dont.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
July 22, 2015, 06:25:12 AM
#49

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!

you can mix it, there are various tool or ways(altcoin, using more than one exchange, mining, recieving bitcoin directly to different adresses ecc...) to help you stay more anonymous than dealing with fiat where every transaction is traceable
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
error
July 22, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
#48

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose


how, if every transaction is online for everyone to see?!
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
July 22, 2015, 01:03:46 AM
#47
There is no reason to mix coins other than to hide your transactions. I'm not passing judgement. Who wants to pay taxes or be busted buying drugs? That doesn't sound like fun to me.



Seriously?

You wouldn't mind people knowing your salary?

You would be ok with your bitcoin company's profits being calculable from your payments to suppliers, customer receipts, etc?

Why not, everyone that wants the info on my salary can get it now anyway. In fact, if they can get my SSN they can get my tax records too.

I'm fine with business transparency. One of the problems we have with modern business is the lack of transparency. That's also one of the biggest problems with government.

Not to say I don't believe you, but the real point is that most people won't feel the way you say you do.

Your original statement implied that people only mix transactions if they're doing something shady. These examples are some of the other reasons.



If people didn't feel the way I do then they would pay for everything with cash. No one would use PayPal, credit cards, debit cards, checks or just about any other modern payment method. BTW: When I first started using checks they always put your SSN under your address and drivers licenses had your SSN on them too.

Paypal, credit cards don't reveal your company profits, or your salary.


unless major istitutions like banks are forced by taxes man like IRS to reveal information about an individual which presumably he is doing money laundering or he is evading taxes with a big amount that wasn't declared previously..

they can control everything that can travel on any fiat circuit, that's why they fear bitcoin


i don't care if banks/governments reveal information of criminals! it is good, actually.

i m worried that my neighbor knows everything about me! it is dangerous! people are envious.
bitcoin don't protect me of my neighbor. banks do.

how so, bitcoin can actully protect singular individual much better than bank, when you are dealing with your neighbor or spose

and anyway i don't find evading taxes always a criminal thing, at least until they can provide transparency on those taxers
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