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Topic: Bitcoin Black Holes and it's effect on price (Read 1996 times)

sr. member
Activity: 432
Merit: 250
September 11, 2015, 02:05:02 PM
#35
How do people lose private keys? All I've had to remember is my email and password to access my keys and account.

You hold coins in an online wallet.

Some people store it on their PC, and all they have is a password, and a wallet.

If they lose any of them, they are fucked.

Gotcha. I store mine offline in a "vault" (cold storage) but not on my PC.

Then what do you mean by e-mail and password? Why do you need an e-mail for offline vault?

That's just how it is on coinbase.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
September 11, 2015, 01:04:10 PM
#34
there's no doubt the price will go up,but i dont think alot of people lose their bitcoin. personally I've never lost any bitcoin. its extremely important to have multiple backups. if you're the type of guy that doesnt back up your files. i suggest using online wallets like blockchain or something.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
September 11, 2015, 12:55:16 PM
#33
How do people lose private keys? All I've had to remember is my email and password to access my keys and account.

You hold coins in an online wallet.

Some people store it on their PC, and all they have is a password, and a wallet.

If they lose any of them, they are fucked.

Gotcha. I store mine offline in a "vault" (cold storage) but not on my PC.

Then what do you mean by e-mail and password? Why do you need an e-mail for offline vault?
sr. member
Activity: 432
Merit: 250
September 11, 2015, 12:53:55 PM
#32
How do people lose private keys? All I've had to remember is my email and password to access my keys and account.

You hold coins in an online wallet.

Some people store it on their PC, and all they have is a password, and a wallet.

If they lose any of them, they are fucked.

Gotcha. I store mine offline in a "vault" (cold storage) but not on my PC.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
September 11, 2015, 12:11:41 PM
#31
How do people lose private keys? All I've had to remember is my email and password to access my keys and account.

You hold coins in an online wallet.

Some people store it on their PC, and all they have is a password, and a wallet.

If they lose any of them, they are fucked.
Q7
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
September 11, 2015, 10:57:16 AM
#30
Since it is deflationary it meant for the price to up provided the interest in the coin and security of the network is still there. The only question is when and how long the whole pricess will take. I doubt I'll be able to see it one day
sr. member
Activity: 432
Merit: 250
September 11, 2015, 08:09:06 AM
#29
How do people lose private keys? All I've had to remember is my email and password to access my keys and account.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
September 10, 2015, 07:49:33 PM
#28
After more thinking I figured out that scenario 3 is really very unlikely.

People are not very empathetic, they would not give a shit if somebody were to lose 1 million btc, in fact they would  profit from his loss, and become greedy by bidding the price up.


So the emotional shock / faith loss in bitcoin (due to this event happening) is very very unlikely. It's far more likely that traders would go crazy and buy up bitcoin.

(not to mention that if 1 million btc were lost, it cant be sold, so a lot of sell pressure would lift from BTC)
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
Here's my simple take on it:

1.000.000 Bitcoin's dissapear, but the demand for Bitcoin is exactly the same after

Result: The price of Bitcoin stays the same.

1.000.000 Bitcoin's dissapear, but the demand for Bitcoin increases even if it's for a small %

Result: The price goes way higher than it would have been if those coins were available.

In the end it all depends on how the public reacts, the price technically should rise, but due to panic or uncertainty it can stay the same or even fall.

Especially if a big chunk of money gets locked out, because it can bring down a bitcoin business (imagine a big exchange locking out their money what chaos would create).
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1250
Here's my simple take on it:

1.000.000 Bitcoin's dissapear, but the demand for Bitcoin is exactly the same after

Result: The price of Bitcoin stays the same.

1.000.000 Bitcoin's dissapear, but the demand for Bitcoin increases even if it's for a small %

Result: The price goes way higher than it would have been if those coins were available.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Market price is based upon supply and demand, period. Supply could also be considered "lack of supply". We have no way of knowing if the "lack of supply" at any given moment is caused by lost coins, investors who are holding for a higher price, or hoarders that will never sell. Frankly it doesn't matter. We live in the now. The now price is based upon the current supply and demand, regardless of why. It will always be that way.

Even if someone advertised that they lost a bunch of bitcoins, I would not expect the market to react strongly. How could it be proven that the coins are permanently lost? Talk about a pump in dump scheme. Just pretend to lose coins, then find them again when the price goes up. Financial markets don't work that way.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
Ok consider the next scenario, what if Bob creates the BOBCOIN

He will list BOBCOINS on Bitrex or some other exchange. Investors invest 1000 BTC in the BOBCOIN , and miners start mining BOBCOIN.

Then for some reason it will get delisted from Bitrex before any investor could withdraw their coins, but BOB's account from which he sold BOBCOIN is a blackhole, to prove that he is a trusted developer, and he won't run away with the investment.

So we got 1000 BTC sitting in a blackhole address, where he withdrawed the amount from the exchange.


So all 1000 BTC are burned, and locked away at his address, but also BOBCOIN fails, miners abandon the project, investors lose all their money.


How would this affect the BTC/$ or BTC/€ price?
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1007
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
If the velocity of money (bitcoin) increases a lot, then bitcoin black holes may not have any effect.
It is the equivalent of one person hoarding coins - shouldn't affect the price when the velocity is very high.

Yea but even if the velocity of bitcoin increases 10x in the next 2 years, if we lost half of the bitcoins in a black hole, then otherwise it could have increased by 20x.

And usually high velocity of money = less inflation, but in this case its inversed because if half of the supply is locked than it is only the other half that can affect the price

IF       PRICE = DEMAND / SUPPLY
THEN   PRICE = DEMAND / (SUPPLY/2)   after the locked coins
THEN   PRICE = DEMAND *2 /SUPPLY
THEN   price goes up as demand doubles


This is how logically can be deducted.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Price is still based on supply and demand, not lost coins. Right now, there are more bitcoins created everyday than there are people willing to buy for fiat. Once the demand increases, the price will surely go up.
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1014
Logically, the price would have to go up
If people would know about such coin loss, then yes.
But person/organisation that would loose so many coins wouldn't probably like to share that information.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1098
If Bitcoins are lost they will be less. In this case, the price must go up. But all this will be invisible to us.
+ As it was written a long time if the price is very high then Bitcoin can be divided into even smaller share than Satoshi.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
Current price is not based on the potential maximum number of coins, who would now pay for something more than 100 years from now? It would only affect price if those coins lost were actively being traded, affecting the price on a daily basis.
legendary
Activity: 1001
Merit: 1003
After sending some coins to a blackhole while experimenting with some code, I see this as a potential problem. But there is also a simple solution (at the cost of an interaction).

Before sending to any address, the client can additionally do a challenge-response with the received to ensure that the private keys are indeed correct.

Ideally the non-interactive way would be for the sender to verify that the coins are indeed retrievable from the receiving address. This could be in the form of a signature on some public random string.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1026
★Nitrogensports.eu★
If the velocity of money (bitcoin) increases a lot, then bitcoin black holes may not have any effect.
It is the equivalent of one person hoarding coins - shouldn't affect the price when the velocity is very high.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
The price of bitcoin is based on what people are willing to pay, currently, on the exchanges.
If over time, many bitcoins are lost to the blackhole, that is less bitcoins that can be placed on those exchanges.

Not only will the halvings cause less bitcoins to enter the economy, but also the blackhole bitcoins.
Price is always based on supply. Supply goes down, price goes up. That is pretty much it, in theory.

When will you see an actual effect due to lost coins?
Probably far in the future when 90% of all coins are mined and we all see how many coins are actually circulating.



Yes we can set a more accurate formula for monetary inflation on bitcoin:

 Yearly inflation from minting - Yearly bitcoins lost in blackholes = Actual yearly inflation.

I said in my previous post that if the blackholes swallow more bitcoins than it gets mined, then we will see a price increase.

However we dont necessarly have to wait until 90% mining completion, since bitcoin is getting more centralized, newbies lose all their coins to gambling sites or exchanges all the time, thus eventually the bitcoins will be held by less and less people.

It's easier for a gambling site to accidentally destroy 10.000 bitcoins by forgetting private key, than for 100.000 newbies who hold 0.1 BTC isn't it?

So the more centralized the ownership it becomes, the more bitcoin will be lost eventually.

Price is always based on supply. Supply goes down, price goes up. That is pretty much it, in theory.

Haha that is not true, that is Keynesian woodoo economics BS.

Price =  Demand / Supply.


While Supply is generally precise and measurable, Demand is more subjective and harder to measure, but demand is not always correlated with supply. In most cases it isnt.
The demand for a bread can be high, if the supply truck is stuck in the mud and it will delay 2 weeks, the price will still stay high and not move to equilibrium.
Demand and supply are in most cases not moving in parralel. That is some inefficiency of the markets.

When I stated price was based on supply, I was referring to how many bitcoin's were in circulation and on exchanges.
The theory that price = supply/demand, is common sense.
I did not mention demand because as supply decreases, demand will have to go up, otherwise blackhole bitcoins have no effect on future prices.
If bitcoin has no demand, then supply is worthless. Thus no need to mention demand in this bitcoin blackhole thought experiment.
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