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Topic: Bitcoin Blocksize Problem Video - page 3. (Read 9491 times)

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
April 29, 2013, 11:30:20 AM
#31

The things which concern me most are deep packet inspection and targeted blocking. 


Right, that is what I said.  it is whether you do or don't have a p2p connection.  This has nothing to do with increasing the block size.

And I'll say (again) that it is possible to 'have a p2p connection' in hostile environments which can pass small amounts of data, but will not live long or work well on large amounts.

Once Bitcoin make the jump to a bandwidth intensive solution it is unlikely to be able to go back, and that leaves it at significantly higher risk of a successful state directed attack.


If you are claiming that the difference between the current block size and a new block size is somehow going to trigger all this stuff then I find that hard to believe and you have no data.  The issue has nothing to do with block size. 


I am only saying that attacks of this nature might be 'triggered' in that if Bitcoin is weak in this areas and can heavily damaged or killed.  If so, that could become the preferred attack channel as Bitcoin becomes increasingly threatening to existing power structures.

The flip-side is that if an attack using network analysis and filtering technology is unlikely to kill Bitcoin, or is likely to make it stronger, or is likely to cause excessive co-lateral damage, that will probably not be the attack vector of choice.

You seem to be saying that it is somehow invalid to consider problems which have not yet occurred.  That strategy is unlikely to result in a robust system.  This is not specific to Bitcoin but applies to almost any endeavor.

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
April 29, 2013, 11:07:35 AM
#30

The things which concern me most are deep packet inspection and targeted blocking. 


Right, that is what I said.  it is whether you do or don't have a p2p connection.  This has nothing to do with increasing the block size.

And I'll say (again) that it is possible to 'have a p2p connection' in hostile environments which can pass small amounts of data, but will not live long or work well on large amounts.

Once Bitcoin make the jump to a bandwidth intensive solution it is unlikely to be able to go back, and that leaves it at significantly higher risk of a successful state directed attack.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1007
April 29, 2013, 09:21:51 AM
#29
money and politics

inseparable after all  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
https://www.realitykeys.com
April 29, 2013, 08:32:08 AM
#28
One thing that video script is missing is a simulation of how high transaction fees would go if you had your way. Without that it's a bit meaningless, because people can't imagine which of the current uses of bitcoin will still work and which ones will have to disappear or move to something else, like a payment processor that they'd have to trust.

You're going to have to pay quite a bit just to beat out Satoshi Dice, because those guys are making out like bandits doing what they're doing, and sometimes they're taking seriously high-value bets.

What are we going to be paying in your world to get into the world highest-value 7 transactions? $1 per transaction? $10 per transaction? $100 per transaction?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
April 29, 2013, 12:59:27 AM
#27
My reaction:  stop spreading FUD.

Commercial broadband providers are monitoring and manipulating users traffic.  This is not some 'moon landing' consipricy theory.  It's happening now.


maybe you are talking about something else but ... ISP's have manipulated P2P traffic in the past but that was at levels way above what Bitcoin uses.  That was that whole Network Neutrality thing.  These days some ISP's still claim they need to do throttling because of all the bandwidth being used but the reality is it is a revenue generating thing because they want to push people into a metered service.  I actually testified at the class action court hearings for this issue because Comast blocked some of my ports and forced me to get a higher level of service because I run my own e-mail server.

So the issue is whether you have or don't have p2p communication, not the amount of p2p traffic when you are talking about Bitcoin.  The blocksize is not really an issue as far as ISP throttling p2p traffic is concerned.

The things which concern me most are deep packet inspection and targeted blocking.  These have been toyed with off and on in the US, and are under active use in other countries.  I have zero confidence that one 'cyber-attack' would not sway a majority of people to support whatever means are necessary to stop 'al-quida' or whoever the baddies are advertised to be.  Especially if the filtering left their porn and media theft habits available.  Nor do I believe that it would be technically unfeasible to filter with enough effectiveness to throw a wrench into the workings of many systems including Bitcoin.

If the infrastructure required to operate Bitcoin needs to be of commercial grade to be effective, I believe that the task of disrupting it would be even more simple.  Again, that would just require a law, and a law would just require an emergency.  Such an emergency does not even have to be a 'false flag' for those who are not prone to conspiracy theories.

You might argue that Bitcoin is global and can survive be packing up and moving to a 'free' country.  I say that very few countries are not going to feel some threat to their own financial infrastructure posed by a robust Bitcoin and it may be hard to find a welcome home.  The countries which are not set up to quash 'threats' such as Bitcoin and are not under pretty strong influence of a powerful external political body are rare...and I believe that you've find a dearth of datacenter and backbone fiber within their jurisdictions.

You might argue that people will switch en-mas to using cryptography and other forms of cloaking.  I will say that it will hasten the requirement for traffic which is not auditable by authorities to be blocked.

You might say that it will damage legitimate uses, industry, etc.  I will say you've got 90 days to re-compile or use the solution provided by a certified vendor.  Nobody is going to hunt down illegal crypto users...just flip a switch and start blocking traffic.  That is kind of a checkmate unless I want to make the argument that I don't trust the government, and that's going to be a loser in certain very possible environments.

You might argue that it has not happened yet and we won the strong crypto battle of two decades ago and SOPA recently so we're all good.  I will argue that it was a close call in both cases, the adversaries learned lessons for their next attacks and learned that it is possible to make some pretty good lemonade out of the lemons that we delivered in those to instances.  In short, "it ain't over yet."

Or you might just be a pimple-face Internet tough guy who will state the acronym 'tor' to solve any problem.  If so, you are likely to end up being an Internet tough guy with a dead internet connection.  Good luck using Bitcoin in that state.

---

Now I do believe that there will be plenty of technically inclined people will be able to move with relative freedom through almost any conceivable network environment.  How much 'guts' they will need is the main question.  My whole thing about the block size comes down the difficulties of moving through a hostile environment while trying to pack a big load of data.

It is important to note that I'm not talking about today's legal and cultural environment.  Obviously Bitcoin can scale hugely under the environment we enjoy today.  I'm looking down the road and asking 'then what' under certain changes which are, I am pretty certain, distinct possibilities.  If the Bitcoin Foundation is doing such forward threat analysis, they are doing a damn bad job of communicating it, and if they are not, they are negligent in my opinion.

---

It just hit me that it is the case that many animals when they wish to quit a fight will lay prostrate and 'expose their jugular'.  This is an indication to the winner that the loser no longer poses a threat.  In short, it is the ultimate demonstration of good will.  I wonder if the Bitcoin Foundation is, in an effort to demonstrate goodwill to the authorities, putting themselves (and us) into such a position (by laying defenseless against certain forms of attack.)  If so, I think this is a totally wrong strategy.  I think that Bitcoin should maintain a cordial relationship with the authorities and make good faith efforts to comply with reasonable requests, but should (and could) operate from a position of power.  Centralization and reliance on corporate controlled systems is a position of extreme weakness whereas full and credible p2p is an expression of extreme strength and possibly enough to actually win the war which seems likely to at some point be fought.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
April 29, 2013, 12:06:42 AM
#26
given my recent experience with one of the other core devs over on github, i have to say that my support for Gavin as lead dev has been reinforced many times over.

i too would like to see Bitcoin become a reserve currency and a store of wealth but i don't necessarily see increasing the block size to be a mutually exclusive event.  certainly i plan on holding multiple copies of the blockchain as it increases in size.  as for it increasing the target on my forehead, i'll have to defer to the experts on that one.  but the increased velocity of Bitcoin as a currency certainly will increase it's value even if a merchant chooses to hold it only briefly.  the mere fact that those coins will be circulating at a much faster rate will increase demand for their use and consequently their value. 

seems to me Mike has a point that miners could always choose to put a cap on their block sizes if they want.  i say open up the limit and let it evolve.  more users also means more difficult to shut down.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
April 28, 2013, 11:59:13 PM
#25
this mysterious guy who holds nearly 10% of the coins outstanding

you have absolutely no evidence of this.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
April 28, 2013, 11:46:38 PM
#24
Quote from: xavier
First of all, and this may seem like a rather extreme opinion, but I think that Gavin Andresen is a liability to bitcoin.

I think he is a huge asset. Complaints against him are inevitable, no matter how he conducts himself, given the size of the bitcoin community and the differing opinions among its members.

Quote
but do not want to have to worry about the bitcoin foundation or 'satoshi', this mysterious guy who holds nearly 10% of the coins outstanding, and you do not want to continue to prop up the bank accounts of such individuals as Gavin Andresen and the bitcoin cartel, there is an alternative currency Litecoin that is actually technically better than bitcoin and avoids all of these problems.

This not the place to pump your bitcoin copycat. It's clear what your motive is now.

I'd rather the most successful bitcoin-based cryptocurrency reward early adopters like Satoshi who actually developed the technology and supported it while it was still unproven, and not early adopters of copycat networks who want to profit off of all the work put into creating bitcoin technology, without rewarding those who put in that work.

You give all bitcoin-based cryptocurrency a bad name with your spammy sniping.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 18
April 28, 2013, 11:27:54 PM
#23
The block size problem is just one of a number of problems that are coming bitcoins way. The biggest problem however is not block chain or any external government or regulation, as actually both the problems could be solved rather easily. It is the bitcoin foundation itself.

Don't be foolish. If Bitcoin is decentralized and democratic as it needs to be Gavin and the foundation pose little threat to Bitcoin regardless of their actions.

I disagree with Gavin on the blocksize issue and I think the foundation should be making off-chain transactions a priority. But Bitcoin needs people working full-time doing the grunt work of testing and feature development and Gavin *has* done a good job of that. Bitcoin also needs people working on legal issues and advocacy and again the foundation is beginning to provide that. That is exactly why I've donated to the foundation before and if they changed their priorities I would do so in the future.

The foundation does not control Bitcoin. They are a resource and YOU choose to run the software they help develop.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1452
April 28, 2013, 10:35:21 PM
#22
First of all, and this may seem like a rather extreme opinion, but I think that Gavin Andresen is a liability to bitcoin. If you read in the tehnical forum, you can see MANY complaints about him, his communication, the way he acts and deals with the community. You will notice a general dissatisfaction about Gavin Andresen that has been present for a while. Considering he is currently in full time employment effectively by bitcoin itself, and therefore really has no excuse, this is rather worrying. Is my opinion that his involvement as lead developer with the bitcoin project, an equivalent to CEO, is going to cost investors a lot in the future. For this reason amongst others, I have sold many of my coins already for alternative currencies so I don't not have to worry about the things he and the rest of the bitcoin cartel have in store in the coming months and years.

All I can really add here, as i am not a member of the cartel and just look at things from the point of view of an outside investor: if you believe in the concept of crypto currencies that bitcoin has successfully communicated, but do not want to have to worry about the bitcoin foundation or 'satoshi', this mysterious guy who holds nearly 10% of the coins outstanding, and you do not want to continue to prop up the bank accounts of such individuals as Gavin Andresen and the bitcoin cartel[...]
Ad hominem
sr. member
Activity: 260
Merit: 250
April 28, 2013, 10:29:45 PM
#21
The block size problem is just one of a number of problems that are coming bitcoins way. The biggest problem however is not block chain or any external government or regulation, as actually both the problems could be solved rather easily. It is the bitcoin foundation itself.

First of all, and this may seem like a rather extreme opinion, but I think that Gavin Andresen is a liability to bitcoin. If you read in the tehnical forum, you can see MANY complaints about him, his communication, the way he acts and deals with the community. You will notice a general dissatisfaction about Gavin Andresen that has been present for a while. Considering he is currently in full time employment effectively by bitcoin itself, and therefore really has no excuse, this is rather worrying. Is my opinion that his involvement as lead developer with the bitcoin project, effectively CEO of bitcoin, is going to cost investors a lot in the future. For this reason amongst others, I have sold many of my coins already for alternative currencies so I don't not have to worry about the things he and the rest of the bitcoin cartel have in store in the coming months.

All I can really add here, as i am not a member of the cartel and just look at things from the point of view of an outside investor: if you believe in the concept of crypto currencies that bitcoin has successfully communicated, but do not want to have to worry about the bitcoin foundation or 'satoshi', this mysterious guy who holds nearly 10% of the coins outstanding, and you do not want to continue to prop up the bank accounts of such individuals as Gavin Andresen and the bitcoin cartel, there is an alternative currency Litecoin that is actually technically better than bitcoin and avoids all of these problems.

The day the bitcoin foundation opened was the day that bitcoin died. I strongly advise anyone holding bitcoin to sell now and buy lite coin so they do not have to worry about this bunch of idiots. I also believe more people will be doing this in the coming months, as the incompetence of this bitcoin foundation makes itself clear, which makes this a pretty good time to be buying.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 18
April 28, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
#20
My reaction:  stop spreading FUD.

There are very real concepts being discussed here.  I find this a disapointing reaction from a person in your position.

Indeed. Gavin's original blog post on the subject a month or two ago is similarly embarrassing. But after all, Bitcoin is our currency, not his. If he wants to embarrass himself and the foundation let him.

If you are not actively thinking about these things, I have to say that you are simply not very well equiped to be planning the roadmap for a robust solution in light of various potential threats which are very probable.  I'm honestly not trying to be a dick; this is simply as close to a statement of fact as any of my ravings on this forum have been.

The BCF and you have my support in having a desire to integrate with state law at this time.  I don't see most laws and regulations as being without reasonable rational even if the implementation is cumbersome.  At this time.  The question is what if the laws change to 'no Bitcoin period'.  Is your answer going to the 'well, that is that.'?  This question is, in fact, not hyperbole.  A followup question is whether there would be any alternative which had been considered?

Absolutely. I do support the foundation and have donated funds to it and the development team but we can't just put our heads in the sand and hope for the best. In addition something people should realize in the wake of the StrongCoin debacle is how anonymity is a form of security. If what wallet software and who has what coins is not known, it is much harder to be attacked.

People often don't appreciate how your privacy is directly threatened by large transaction volumes. A SPV client, like your Android wallet, has to tell the nodes it communicates with about what Bitcoin addresses it is interested in so that only transactions relevant to it are forwarded. Now there is a mechanism where that knowledge is obscured, sort of like saying "Only tell me about addresses beginning with 1Ac4" but as transaction volumes go up the specificity of that filter has to increase so that your little Android phone is not flooded. The next step for any authoritarians is to setup a bunch of nodes to track who owns what coins.

blockchain.info already has that infrastructure.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
April 28, 2013, 02:18:59 PM
#19
My reaction:  stop spreading FUD.

There are very real concepts being discussed here.  I find this a disapointing reaction from a person in your position.

"small mining pools will go out of business" -- give me a break! My back-of-the-envelope calculations say that anybody willing to spend a few hundred dollars a year on a dedicated server with a high-bandwidth connection can support a MUCH, MUCH larger block size.

Commercial broadband providers are monitoring and manipulating users traffic.  This is not some 'moon landing' consipricy theory.  It's happening now.

The importance of a monetary system is about 1000 times more important than keeping people from watching movies for free.  To think that the same legal structures, hardware infrastructure, marketing, and etc used for 'six strikes' will not be turned against decentralized crypto-currencies is wishful thinking.

To think that commercial infrastructure providers are going to be immune from similar pressures to attack their customers, even if you think that it is a good idea to force the Bitcoin infrastructure into this space, strikes me as utterly absurd.

If you are not actively thinking about these things, I have to say that you are simply not very well equiped to be planning the roadmap for a robust solution in light of various potential threats which are very probable.  I'm honestly not trying to be a dick; this is simply as close to a statement of fact as any of my ravings on this forum have been.

The BCF and you have my support in having a desire to integrate with state law at this time.  I don't see most laws and regulations as being without reasonable rational even if the implementation is cumbersome.  At this time.  The question is what if the laws change to 'no Bitcoin period'.  Is your answer going to the 'well, that is that.'?  This question is, in fact, not hyperbole.  A followup question is whether there would be any alternative which had been considered?

The block size will be raised. Your video will just make a lot of people worried about nothing, in exactly the same way Luke-Jr's BIP17 proposal last year (and his hyperbolic rhetoric about BIP16) did nothing but cause a tempest in a teapot.

The BIP17/16 thing was most memorable to me in that a single pool operator made the decision about timing if nothing else.  It was an excellent study in centralization.

I do labor under the assumption that 'The block size will be raised.'  just as I assume the worst about other threats to my interests or things that I care about.  It would be silly not to, and further, not to take pro-active steps to mitigate the damages.  I own 'bitcoin-legacy.org' and will gladly offer it to any person or group who demonstrates the right combination of technical and ethical proficiency to make use of it should that it be required.

member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
April 28, 2013, 02:17:25 PM
#18
I know and understand nothing of the technical stuff you guys are talking about. I will say this though...

Complaining about the micro-transactions of some gambling site, or saying it's not what bitcoin was designed for, is meaningless unless you have an effective and practical plan to put a stop to such activities.

If there is no such plan proposed then you (we) need to presume such things will continue and work around them.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1160
April 28, 2013, 01:34:46 PM
#17
Peter: Interesting! I wish you had told me about this project earlier. You have my support:

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Hilarious. I love that you're donating with an off-chain tx system. But for the sake of transparency, I will say that was a 1BTC donation.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 18
April 28, 2013, 01:24:43 PM
#16
Peter: Interesting! I wish you had told me about this project earlier. You have my support:

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It is so important that you are taking this message to the people. Bitcoin is much bigger than this little forum.

Mike: Don't troll the forums with stuff you know isn't true. 1MB blocks still have to be processed by all miners regardless of what they think the blocksize should be.

Gavin: Your few hundred dollars a year means you will not be mining anonymously. That is unacceptable. I think you spend too much time thinking about the needs of the big businesses that pay your salary. It is telling how they businesses transacting Bitcoin out in the open as a payment system.

Why you put so much focus as Bitcoin the payment system puzzles me. It's a unscalable one where you have to wait long times to get your payment, you have to jump through hoops getting your money in and out, and every transaction is public. The claimed advantages of low transaction fees and zero fraud for the merchant are both things that non-bitcoin solutions can easily replicate. For instance MintChip gives you both. For Bitcoin to tie it's future to such applications is simply foolishness that will end sadly the moment non-anonymous systems pull the rug out of it by changing the way they treat their customers. You know that PayPal could change it's one-sided policies overnight with the new "PayPal No Refunds" service offering low-fees and no refunds.

On the other hand Bitcoin is a inflation proof and censorship proof store of value. The people in Cyprus, Russia and China, don't care about SatoshiDice, they care about their savings being secure from confiscation. Part of that security is anonymity of the kind that off-chain transaction systems can provide. But they can't provide that if Bitcoin is controlled.

Actually, to reply to another message of Mike Hearns, talking about how he expects regulatory efforts to focus on mining hardware that is EXACTLY the issue. Regulation WILL come to Bitcoin mining and the first step of that will be to regulate mining pools. Forcing pools to operate out of data centers with easily found high bandwidth connections will make those regulations possible.

Anyway I suspect there is a lot more Bitcoin activity going on that doesn't give a damn about Bitcoin as a payment system. Peter mentioned Silk Road which is brilliant I think. It is an off-chain transaction system already. As a serious Bitcoin investor I also care about the store of value, not stupid micropayments, and I know my partners feels the same way. We also know that Bitcoin's value has very little to do with being a payment system because any efficient payment system will hold Bitcoins for the minimum possible time which means payments don't actually drive much demand for Bitcoins. Investors on the other hand do.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1452
April 28, 2013, 12:47:20 PM
#15
^ If bitcoin ever becomes a major global currency, then there will be 10,000X as many transactions being created as SD is creating now. SD is providing stress-testing for the network, and showing that unless the block size limit is lifted, there will be a problem.
it's not a stress test, it's a DDOS attack. stress tests are temporary and done with permission. satoshi dice transaction spam last forever on the network (uneconomical satoshi outputs). bitcoin was never meant to be a micro transaction currency, stop pulling numbers out of your ass.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
April 28, 2013, 12:44:38 PM
#14
Proof of work crypto-currencies have a startup problem: when they're small they are trivial to attack.

Please note that 51% attacks don't destroy cryptocurrencies, because they are simply agreements between a number of people. If a large enough number of people supported a certain cryptocurrency, even while starting up, it could gain traction even with external forces engineering hash power attacks until no longer effective. Granted, this isn't an ideal or smooth progression of a crypto coin starting up, but it is possible.

I suspect we have one shot at making a strong decentralized crypto-currency; future currencies will simply be killed at birth . Bitcoin and Litecoin are the only viable options right now,...

Don't forget about Novacoin, which has the most traction of an alt-coin next to Litecoin (now ~$3.90), which I believe is because it's a combination proof of work and proof of stake coin, which of course dramatically reduces the chance of successful 51% attack.

but the latter's scalability problems are four times worse, and it just doesn't have the level of support that Bitcoin does.

Why would you think Litecoin's scalability is four times worse? Aside from a few changes it's the exact same thing as Bitcoin. It actually has more scalability than Bitcoin right now because blocks occur 4 times faster, meaning the number of transactions waiting in between blocks don't build up as large. With Bitcoin the limit is 1MB worth of data every 10 minutes; with Litecoin it's 1MB worth  every 2.5 minutes. I think you have it backwards. However, I believe it's a good idea (though not crucial) to raise Litecoin's block size too, to say 10-15 MB, while allowing Bitcoin to be uncapped. That way we can see, and the market appreciate, which works best in practice.

As for level of support I think you're underestimating it. Remember Litcoin comes into circulation 4 times faster than Bitcoin. That means a $4 price point for Litecoin is the same valuation as Bitcoin not at $4, but at about $16. That's a lot of people holding litecoins and growing every day. Also remember support levels can change. When I wrote the post I linked above there were many skeptics in that thread, and what could I say? Litecoin was at $0.04 after all.

In any case the solution to the problem of making small payments viable for a decentralized crypto-currency, off-chain transaction systems, will create technologies that can be used with any crypto-currency.

I agree.


For that matter, part of making off-chain tx systems viable and secure will include security improvements that are applicable to on-chain transactions too.

I believe here you're talking about chaum banks, which I still haven't fully considered. However, while we share strong believe and support in off-chain tx solutions I believe many ways for that to develop exist.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
April 28, 2013, 12:38:20 PM
#13
^ If bitcoin ever becomes a major global currency, then there will be 10,000X as many transactions being created as SD is creating now. SD is providing stress-testing for the network, and showing that unless the block size limit is lifted, there will be a problem.

interesting view
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2311
Chief Scientist
April 28, 2013, 12:37:30 PM
#12
My reaction:  stop spreading FUD.

"small mining pools will go out of business" -- give me a break! My back-of-the-envelope calculations say that anybody willing to spend a few hundred dollars a year on a dedicated server with a high-bandwidth connection can support a MUCH, MUCH larger block size.

The block size will be raised. Your video will just make a lot of people worried about nothing, in exactly the same way Luke-Jr's BIP17 proposal last year (and his hyperbolic rhetoric about BIP16) did nothing but cause a tempest in a teapot.
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