Bitcoin cannot be decentralized if the Internet is centralized - page 4.

Blitzboy

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on December 27, 2019, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: Abiky on December 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM

It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet.

Can you elaborate? As I know, the Internet network is still largely decentralized, and thanks to tools like encryption, ToR, VPN, proxies it's impossible to control users. It's impossible to make a "turn Bitcoin off" button, so I wouldn't worry about it. There are problems with lack of competition between Internet service providers in some places, but it doesn't have any strong implications for Bitcoin.

Agree with you! Basically, the internet is still decentralized, not only thanks to encryption tools but also by different vendors, no one really can control it, including global services. All the big companies can do is dominating user data and it's not an effect on Bitcoin, without any impact.

the rise

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ISPs and what has been mentioned need not be decentralized, they are only concerned with business matters, unless the government wants things that are more stringent but does not eliminate access completely, this seems excessive to me because financial freedom must also remain balanced with a system that is constantly adapting. The government will also definitely consider using bitcoin/crypto positively because they are already tired enough with inflation that will never end.

n0ne

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If there exist a controversy whether the internet is decentralized or centralized, there will be big confusion. From my view the way we make use of the internet will show it to be centralized or decentralized. We have darkweb that can be a way of decentralized usage. Until something can't be traced we can term internet to be decentralized.

darkangel11

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Quote from: davis196 on December 28, 2019, 02:05:13 AM

Lol,a bunch of people denying a stupid statement(the internet is centralized) just to sig spam.
Calm down people,there's no need to bump stupid threads again and again,all the time. Grin

Haven't you just comment on the same thread, wearing a paid sig? Good job on getting a paid post without actually contributing to the discussion.

There are two ways of looking at it. Saying that internet is centralized isn't completely stupid.

The Internet access is largely centralized, same as search engines and what is transmitted by media outlets. One of them publishes FUD and suddenly they all repeat it without doing research. Its an example of brainwashed centralization.
At the same time Bitcoin is decentralized and so are forums and channels that allow people to communicate and share information.

airdnasxela

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Internet being centralized or decentralized is not really a problem here. Bitcoin is decentralized on its nature but one factor affecting it is the government who is centralized. Even if bitcoin is decentralized, since the government is higher, they can still control their people who's using Bitcoin. No one is controlling Bitcoin but the government can control people, which is the user of Bitcoin.

isaac_clarke22

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We have dark web, and pretty much people can still do illegal things there and I don't think that government has any control of what's going on in there. If there's gonna be part of the internet that will be centralized, it could be because of restrictions of some ISP do to their customers in connection to their local government's regulation, but in the end, people can still utilize VPNs and I don't think that they still have the control of that.

chaoscoinz

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Quote from: Abiky on December 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts? Huh

I think people are putting way to much emphasis on Bitcoin itself instead of the Blockchain. Satoshi Nakamoto made the Bitcoin and Blockchain source code open source. So most likely Satoshi knew Bitcoin was flawed, hence making the project public in hope's of people contributing to where he left off. As we speak, other projects are being developed that blow Bitcoin and it's current blockchain out of the water. I don't think Bitcoin was designed to be permanent but instead it was just a proof of concept demonstrating the use of Blockchain and what could potentially be a new form of digital currency.
Instead people took Bitcoin and Blockchain and ran with it. I doubt Bitcoin makes the long run, I see Bitcoin as the archetype and prototype for future cryptocurrencies and blockchains, being made after Bitcoins likeness and image.
Delegated proof of stake and sharding seem like a more efficient and viable choice at the moment, but eventually even these methods will be replaced by better ideas as I am sure Satoshi envisioned.

FlightyPouch

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As far as I know, no one owns or governs the internet. That is why a lot of people are addicted to it since there are no laws or limitations to access it unless the government is the one limiting it. Still that do not count since they do not control the internet.

Tipstar

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Internet is decentralized as much as it could be. There's no other network as decentralized as internet as almost all of them depends on it.
There are concepts of a alternative internet but that would also be no different from current internet.
Though I'd love to see a coin that could be verified using mobile networks or wlan or even Bluetooth so that people can transact offline.

Leonardo7

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I don't believe the internet is completely centralized, for example, the government of Uganda announced he will start charging her citizens their use of the internet, a friend of mine from there vowed to start using VPN than pay any dime to the government. With this, he could still access the internet without the government knowing and he needs pay no tax on the internet too.

imstillthebest

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As far as I read , the Comments here are not the same . Some says internet is centralized while others say it isn't .

But if I were to give my own opinion I can say that it is really decentralized because no one's hold the internet but there are so called isp that control our Network and the site owner that control the site . Btc is also decentralized but there are those wallet that are control by devs .

joinfree

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I think the OP has also forgotten that the Bitcoin network is hosted by several nodes which is dominated by the Chinese and in that same manner these internet service providers spread across the world also host the internet for successful transfer of information. I don't see anything wrong with this, what do you think folks?

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on December 27, 2019, 06:06:58 PM

Quote from: Abiky on December 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM

It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet.

Can you elaborate? As I know, the Internet network is still largely decentralized, and thanks to tools like encryption, ToR, VPN, proxies it's impossible to control users. It's impossible to make a "turn Bitcoin off" button, so I wouldn't worry about it. There are problems with lack of competition between Internet service providers in some places, but it doesn't have any strong implications for Bitcoin.

I have to say I don't understand what is exactly the point.
You've said that big companies like Facebook and Google control internet. Maybe that is partialy true but I wouldn't say that they control internet but users of the internet, or better to say their data.
On the other hand I don't see how this is connected with Bitcoin. When we say that is decentralized that means that it doesn't have some central authority like central banks or similar who would control it or define it so that doesn't have anything to do with internet

I think he just mixed the meanings of decentralization and possible control of internet users by ISPs and big companies like Google or Facebook but I don't think he can prove the point about connection with Bitcoin.

Polar91

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I remembered the concept I learned about the subject networking we had before. Internet is live network, no one owns the internet. With that regard, you can have access to the internet if you want to, you just need to trust and pay ISP but they don't really own a portion of the internet. Some people have just funded the transatlantic cables beneath the seabed but if we are to ask the world who owns it, no one. So why could we say internet is centralized then? Because of ISP? No. Because we are the one who could decide what ISP would we want. If they restricts and observe our browsing activity, it is just that, we let them to do so.

davis196

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Lol,a bunch of people denying a stupid statement(the internet is centralized) just to sig spam.
Calm down people,there's no need to bump stupid threads again and again,all the time. Grin

DreamStage

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Sure ISPs can control what browsers you use and so on, still have you not heard of proxy servers?

Provide your own routes to your router?
Changing IP Address by VPN will make your Internet "decentralized" where the ISP can no longer control which type of connections you are having or from where they come from.

There are alot of ways for bypassing ISP blocks / protections against Crypto network.

So yes Internet is decentralized, it's a group of servers working together as a road (network).

itchycoin

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Bitcoin cant be decentralized at least due to hashrate income. Internet is not a main problem

southafricadude

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Quote from: pixie85 on December 27, 2019, 06:02:14 PM

Internet is centralized when a government can cut your access or limit it. It is centralized when you're paying your ISP for the ability to connect to the web.

It is centralized because somebody owns the cables. Those fiberoptics did not produce and lay themselves. Your local network at work is also centralized because someone owns the computers and someone pays the bills.

If your government cuts off your access, or your ISP turns off your connection....that does not mean the same conditions apply for every person in the world, that is a YOU problem, not an every person in the world problem.

There are millions of internet connections, many many ISPs and governments, the internet is decentralized, no one person or government can turn it all off, that will never happen.

Bitcoin is designed to be run on the internet, but can work any way that you can transmit data.

YOU can setup a satellite node and use bitcoin without internet. This is something setup precisely for people who have 'internet problems' in their country.

Bitcoin can work using virtually any method there is to transmit data, even radio waves, or infra red, but of course the web is the the best method.

CryptoBry

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Quote from: Abiky on December 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts? Huh

I actually have no problem with the idea of decentralizing the internet so that we can also have a fully decentralized Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. The problem is that how can we do it successfully and with disruption? People these days are already accustomed to giants like Google, Facebook and similar names. Getting rid of them can be impossible unless we are proposing a big revolution that can tear down these "walls" but we know it is going to happen. The problem is that these giants became successful, popular and now controlling because people allowed them to be. Facebook became the most pervasive socmed because people are patronizing it and despite many problems and setbacks that besieged the platform we see no exodus from the site. However, I don't see that much connection between decentralized cryptocurrency and centralized internet. Just because we have many big players controlling the business brought on by the internet does not mean that they can really affect cryptocurrency in major ways.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: Abiky on December 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first.

in the internet's current form, yes, the centralized infrastructure and limited number of government-controlled ISPs is problematic. hopefully p2p mesh networking will mitigate this issue, but it'll realistically take years to build out the kind of networks that could support bitcoin. consumer mesh routers have only been out for a few years.

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