Bitcoin Cash BCC might be a threat against the Nash Equilibrium - page 2.

JohnBitCo

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Quote from: jennywhzz on July 23, 2017, 09:51:40 AM

Are you joking? Neither one of those is a threat against anything even close to bitcoin itself. It's like trying to say that plastic soldiers may be a threat to the paper dolls that you made earlier in your childhood

Your right here, Neither one of them are anything to contend with just a bunch of jokes and trying to compare the two of them is basically useless Wink

They are no close to the Real bitcoins.

hv_

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Quote from: pinkflower on July 24, 2017, 07:04:41 AM

It can be viewed as a political attack against the current developers. Activating Segwit via BIP 91 might be a decoy. Its the hard fork to 2mb block sizes, which the miners want is the real problem. Its a contentious hard fork.

Sorry - this is about game theory and the Nash equilibrium that keeps bitcoin safe from a 51% miner attack.

This is about to be broken once miners can choose mining on 2 similar blockchains.

This is 'no' issue if there is a big difference in those 2 coins.

It gets very critical if those 2 coins have same value / perspective.

Than they could destroy one of the blockchains with a 51% attack (double spending , ...) - AND shorting the breaking coin.

Game theory is like the glue for bitcoin's safety!

pinkflower

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It can be viewed as a political attack against the current developers. Activating Segwit via BIP 91 might be a decoy. Its the hard fork to 2mb block sizes, which the miners want is the real problem. Its a contentious hard fork.

hv_

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Quote from: Gyrsur on July 23, 2017, 09:56:03 AM

it is an attack on the Bitcoin blockchain.

The split itself is a simple attack, low level. Like generating any alt is an attack against bitcoin / diluting the global buy-power for bitcoin.

That's not what this here is about - it DOES enable a second level attack that harms one or the other blockchain, since miners can be flipped between both. This is really new.

Gyrsur

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Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206

it is an attack on the Bitcoin blockchain.

jennywhzz

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Are you joking? Neither one of those is a threat against anything even close to bitcoin itself. It's like trying to say that plastic soldiers may be a threat to the paper dolls that you made earlier in your childhood

pinkflower

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Quote from: Xavofat on July 22, 2017, 09:02:13 AM

Quote from: pinkflower on July 22, 2017, 08:24:27 AM

I would like to see them try. After a thousand BTC is dead threads and a thousand real threats to kill the protocol I havent seen one successful attack that had a good chance of destroying it.

It's not an attack, it's a fork. It will do absolutely nothing to the legacy chain.

The only thing that could change is that people start using the new chain or the new chain gains a higher price than the old chain. This seems unlikely, but if it happens it would not be an attack on Bitcoin, it would be the movement of the economic majority.

Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM

Given that miners might reuse now for BTC and BCC their high valued long term investments = mining hardware, they might be able to do selfish mining / 51% attacks to bitcoin whilst parallel shorting bitcoin and destroying it for the longer term.

There are far too many miners in many different places for this to happen.

A small group of pools could do this briefly, but meanwhile the miners mining at those pools would switch to new ones which weren't participating in the attack.

Even if it did happen, the same thing could always happen on BCC later.

But cant this hard fork be viewed as an attack on BTC itself and its developers? What they are trying to do is make a contentious hard fork that would for the blockchain in 2. If thats not an attack then what would you call that?

newIndia

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Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM

On the other side BCC might get a lift and could replace bitcoin, at least in Asia ( who cares we see only some 5k reddit users here in the West) ...

Not all reddit users are in the west.

hv_

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Quote from: 25hashcoin on July 22, 2017, 11:57:24 AM

BCC is simply Satoshis true vision enacted finally. It should be embraced by all who bought into the original vision of Bitcoin.

If this is true than the SW hating miners might attack?

squatz1

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Quote from: pinkflower on July 22, 2017, 08:24:27 AM

I would like to see them try. After a thousand BTC is dead threads and a thousand real threats to kill the protocol I havent seen one successful attack that had a good chance of destroying it.

You can tell all the Chinese miners to try their best. Kill Bitcoin.

I'm going to follow along with this guy here, I just can't see an attack on bitcoin doing anything in the least -- even if they have the power for them to be able to (in theory) try. As I think even if they have the power to do it, some early adopter will pay for them to stop, the community just won't tolerate it, or another big miner who cares for Bitcoin will balance them out and then silence the Chinese miners.

I do think there is going to be a hard fork on August 1'st though, I don't know how it will go but it WILL occur.

Try to kill us, it'll fail!

Xavofat

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Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

Quote from: HostFat on July 22, 2017, 12:08:54 PM

@Xavofat
The next hard fork on Bitcoin Cash will solve the malleability, so it will also become LN compatible.

Interesting. All I've read is the website and some stuff on the BitcoinABC subreddit. If you've got future hard forks planned, is there anywhere with a clear roadmap so I can read?

Quote from: BillyBobZorton on July 22, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

There will be no hardfork.

That's extremely ignorant of you.

Quote from: BillyBobZorton on July 22, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

The whales will punish any hardfork that doesn't meet the required criteria to be a proper hardfork

It is a "proper" hard fork. I think what you mean is that it's a hard fork without consensus, which is true. Maybe you should start talking normally instead of shoving unnecessarily emotive language into everything.

Quote from: BillyBobZorton on July 22, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

. Some rushed hardfork into some altcoin isn't a hardfork people with real skin in the game will approve

But it is a hard fork, right? So there will be a hard fork?

Also, does that mean that UASF can't gather support because it was too rushed?

Kwelstr

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I don't see the problem. People will have coins on both chains and that's it, it's up to you what you want to do with them. Personally I am looking forward to the free extra coins.

25hashcoin

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on July 22, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM

Given that miners might reuse now for BTC and BCC their high valued long term investments = mining hardware, they might be able to do selfish mining / 51% attacks to bitcoin whilst parallel shorting bitcoin and destroying it for the longer term.

On the other side BCC might get a lift and could replace bitcoin, at least in Asia ( who cares we see only some 5k reddit users here in the West) ...

Comments?

There will be no hardfork. Miners know who is the real boss in Bitcoin, and that's Bitcoin whales. Not miners, not exchangers, not corporations, all of these don't hold Bitcoin, they are fiat whores, they sell their BTC for fiat, they don't have real skin the game.

The whales will punish any hardfork that doesn't meet the required criteria to be a proper hardfork. Some rushed hardfork into some altcoin isn't a hardfork people with real skin in the game will approve, so it will get dropped to the ground quickly. If they really don't understand it, then let them try and we'll see what happens.

Blatant lies. There WILL be a hard fork on August 1st.

HostFat

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@Xavofat
The next hard fork on Bitcoin Cash will solve the malleability, so it will also become LN compatible.

25hashcoin

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BCC is simply Satoshis true vision enacted finally. It should be embraced by all who bought into the original vision of Bitcoin.

European Central Bank

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on July 22, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

There will be no hardfork. Miners know who is the real boss in Bitcoin, and that's Bitcoin whales. Not miners, not exchangers, not corporations, all of these don't hold Bitcoin, they are fiat whores, they sell their BTC for fiat, they don't have real skin the game.

The whales will punish any hardfork that doesn't meet the required criteria to be a proper hardfork. Some rushed hardfork into some altcoin isn't a hardfork people with real skin in the game will approve, so it will get dropped to the ground quickly. If they really don't understand it, then let them try and we'll see what happens.

ultimately the bitcoin whales are looking for dollars like everyone else. they take a longer view perhaps but that's the bottom line.

BillyBobZorton

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Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM

Given that miners might reuse now for BTC and BCC their high valued long term investments = mining hardware, they might be able to do selfish mining / 51% attacks to bitcoin whilst parallel shorting bitcoin and destroying it for the longer term.

On the other side BCC might get a lift and could replace bitcoin, at least in Asia ( who cares we see only some 5k reddit users here in the West) ...

Comments?

There will be no hardfork. Miners know who is the real boss in Bitcoin, and that's Bitcoin whales. Not miners, not exchangers, not corporations, all of these don't hold Bitcoin, they are fiat whores, they sell their BTC for fiat, they don't have real skin the game.

The whales will punish any hardfork that doesn't meet the required criteria to be a proper hardfork. Some rushed hardfork into some altcoin isn't a hardfork people with real skin in the game will approve, so it will get dropped to the ground quickly. If they really don't understand it, then let them try and we'll see what happens.

BitcoinNewsMagazine

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Think of BCC as another altcoin like Litecoin which will probably be priced similarly. ViaBTC is shilling BCC hash cloud mining and I doubt many will take them up on the offer. They are even offering to swap S9 BTC cloud mining one for one for BCC cloud mining. Oh boy the deal of the century where do I sign up /s they should be offering to give you twice the amount of BTC hash you have in BCC.

Xavofat

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Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 10:41:49 AM

Maby we can agree upon that the likliness for using one or the other is correlated with the security and reputation of the underlying.

It's a mixture of security, reputation and convenience. The Bitcoin Cash chain, at least at first, will be more convenient, but it doesn't have the maturity and investments that have already made BTC extremely secure. The Lightning Network will increase the original BTC's convenience for microtransactions, and then IMO the original BTC will be hard to overtake because when most microtransactions are sent on the LN, the fees will not be too significant for onchain transactions anymore.

If people start questioning the security of BTC though, I don't think that their first move will be to go to Bitcoin Cash though. Bitcoin Cash isn't so drastically different to BTC security wise that its reputation would be good after a problem with BTC.

Their first move would be to go to an altcoin with different consensus and security systems and see how that works out.

hv_

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Quote from: Xavofat on July 22, 2017, 09:02:13 AM

Quote from: pinkflower on July 22, 2017, 08:24:27 AM

I would like to see them try. After a thousand BTC is dead threads and a thousand real threats to kill the protocol I havent seen one successful attack that had a good chance of destroying it.

It's not an attack, it's a fork. It will do absolutely nothing to the legacy chain.

The only thing that could change is that people start using the new chain or the new chain gains a higher price than the old chain. This seems unlikely, but if it happens it would not be an attack on Bitcoin, it would be the movement of the economic majority.

Quote from: hv_ on July 22, 2017, 08:16:08 AM

Given that miners might reuse now for BTC and BCC their high valued long term investments = mining hardware, they might be able to do selfish mining / 51% attacks to bitcoin whilst parallel shorting bitcoin and destroying it for the longer term.

There are far too many miners in many different places for this to happen.

A small group of pools could do this briefly, but meanwhile the miners mining at those pools would switch to new ones which weren't participating in the attack.

Even if it did happen, the same thing could always happen on BCC later.

Maby we can agree upon that the likliness for using one or the other is correlated with the security and reputation of the underlying.

The attackable one will suffer sooner or later.

Topic: Bitcoin Cash BCC might be a threat against the Nash Equilibrium - page 2. (Read 2179 times)