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Topic: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value - page 2. (Read 1892 times)

legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1115
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For traditional money, you need merchant acceptance to be useful, so it never goes beyond boarder of a country. But bitcoin is more universal form of money, you don't really need merchants to accept the payment, you can easily exchange to what ever currency they accept. It is amazing that you can exchange it to any currency on localbitcoins, no other currency in the world have this kind of worldwide exchangeability

This isn't entirely accurate. If you could do nothing with bitcoin but convert it to fiat, then it would have low utility and low value. It is only because you can purchase things with bitcoin that it has value. Look at all the altcoins that serve no market function: they're all virtually worthless because the only thing you can do with them is exchange them from bitcoin to the altcoin and back. No one accepts them for any goods and services, so they have no value because they don't serve a function. There's no point to them.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
most the value from bitcoin comes from speculation from people who dont intend to use it to buy
things. Most people who I talk to just keep their coins and sell on rise and buy on dips. They don't
actually use it to pay bills etc.

Exactly. The demand for bitcoin mainly comes from investment and saving, and the effect on its value is much more powerful than spending:

Buying one bitcoin and store it for 10 years, it disappears from market for 10 years thus permanently reduce the market supply. However, you have to spend it every 60 minutes to keep it constantly occupied thus permanently reduce the market supply, so you need much larger transaction activity to reach same level of effect as saving

Most people don't realize that saving is the largest demand for money because it has the lowest velocity. And nowadays you barely can find some project worth investing, almost everything is overproduced, more and more people from new generation are aiming for early retirement, all creating a large demand for investment/saving
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
No matter how much the transaction demand is, if a money is quickly losing its value every day, it will be refused in transaction.

If money is "refused in transaction", then demand is lower, negating the premise.

If a money is depreciating fast, then people will refuse to accept it, thus further accelerate its depreciation. When hyperinflation happens it goes quite quick, even central bank raise the interest rate to 10% does not help to prevent its fall. It started at exchange and capital market level, consumers are the last to feel the effect

Transaction demand comes from trading, if fiat money are not accepted, some other transaction medium will gain traction. I guess the next big bitcoin rally comes when we were hit by a wave of severe inflation
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1018
I find it hilarious when some people would get pissed off at the fact that you wouldn't use your Bitcoin frequently for transactions and just hoard. It's like they want to tell you what to do your money, when the fundamental point of Bitcoin is precisely this fredoom to do whatever you want.

Nonetheless I still believe in a worldwide accepted Bitcoin that success to scale to global levels, we should aim for that in any case.

Yes me too! Let the people do as their money as they wish for God's sake. I do try to spend whenever I can I try to help by boosting the number of transactions, Bitcoin ain't just money. It's a commodity as well.  A store of value as well. And many more things!

I was always saying that we should be after Fiat people not against the Bitcoin hoarders! Smiley

Damn right! Let bitcoins circulate there are merchants accepting it, spend it.
If you are like me who earn bitcoins through the forum, spend it in the forum itself. I bet on gambling sites, check my signature. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1016
I find it hilarious when some people would get pissed off at the fact that you wouldn't use your Bitcoin frequently for transactions and just hoard. It's like they want to tell you what to do your money, when the fundamental point of Bitcoin is precisely this fredoom to do whatever you want.

Nonetheless I still believe in a worldwide accepted Bitcoin that success to scale to global levels, we should aim for that in any case.

To me Bitcoin is more a store of value right now than being a currency.So I can understand when people just wanna hoard it.Especially when you keep in mind how incredibly tiny Bitcoin still is.Who wants to miss this train when it finally leaves the station?
Nobody of course!
Everybody saying you have to spend your coins is just a dude looking himself for more!More coins in circulation probably mean lower price to buy.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
I find it hilarious when some people would get pissed off at the fact that you wouldn't use your Bitcoin frequently for transactions and just hoard. It's like they want to tell you what to do your money, when the fundamental point of Bitcoin is precisely this fredoom to do whatever you want.

Nonetheless I still believe in a worldwide accepted Bitcoin that success to scale to global levels, we should aim for that in any case.

Yes me too! Let the people do as their money as they wish for God's sake. I do try to spend whenever I can I try to help by boosting the number of transactions, Bitcoin ain't just money. It's a commodity as well.  A store of value as well. And many more things!

I was always saying that we should be after Fiat people not against the Bitcoin hoarders! Smiley
hero member
Activity: 2002
Merit: 516

The reality is, throughout human history, money's value has never come from transaction demand, be it grain, gold, or fiat money. It comes mainly from the property that it can be trusted to hold value in a relatively long time, and secondly it can be accepted widely


The grain is useful in feeding us, so it has value. The fiat money has no value if it is not used in transaction, or if it cannot be used to buy things. The value of bitcoin is from the trust we can use it to buy things.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
I find it hilarious when some people would get pissed off at the fact that you wouldn't use your Bitcoin frequently for transactions and just hoard. It's like they want to tell you what to do your money, when the fundamental point of Bitcoin is precisely this fredoom to do whatever you want.

Nonetheless I still believe in a worldwide accepted Bitcoin that success to scale to global levels, we should aim for that in any case.

Any rational person would first spend fiat money which lose its value constantly, they would get rid of fiat money as quick as possible in order to not be hurt by inflation, while they will hold bitcoin as long as possible in order to gain from deflation

If you have 10 bitcoin and 4K dollar, which one do you spend first?

Makes sense, of course I'll use the 4K dollars and I'll hold on to bitcoin as long as possible in order to gain from deflation as you said.
There's also another reason: if I consider how hard it has been to accumulate my bitcoin no way I'm going to give up on them so easily.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
I agree that bitcoin doesn't need to be spent to raise in value or even stay at it's value. If people keep buying bitcoins or trade, etc, there will be more demand for it.
Therefore, people who are holding don't need to spend it if they don't want to.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I think bitcoin will grow more in value when there's more demand for it. I am one of those people who are just holding for the most part. I don't spend bitcoin on a day to day basis.
legendary
Activity: 4438
Merit: 3387
No matter how much the transaction demand is, if a money is quickly losing its value every day, it will be refused in transaction.

If money is "refused in transaction", then demand is lower, negating the premise.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
this also translate in, bitcoin does not need to get used to be worth a good value, which lead me to think that holding is always a good thing

but this does not mean that buying should be dismissed, the real backbone of the network is the demand and buying is the important thing here not the usage

in the remote case of a global adoption if for one day everyone stop using bitcoin, the price would remain there more or less

i think that the usage matter more nowadays, to spread faster the adoption, but when that point is reached, it will be less significant
sr. member
Activity: 434
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most the value from bitcoin comes from speculation from people who dont intend to use it to buy
things. Most people who I talk to just keep their coins and sell on rise and buy on dips. They don't
actually use it to pay bills etc.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1023
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As long as we keep promoting bitcoin and its various uses, more and more people from the mainstream will start trusting and using it and saving it. Still there is a huge risk element to it price wise which is what puts a lot of people off. I was talking to my Dad about it the other day and he appreciates its uses but as a store of value he is still nervous about investing in it..So it will take more convincing to get the main stream people into it..but it is happening..
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Hoarding works to increase value untill it reaches the point where everyone sells. But Without buying and selling products mass adoption cant happen due to no where to spend them.

Not everyone will sell at the same point, everyone has their criteria, so it is evened out in a longer time frame. There are 370,000 babies born every day, never ending saving capital inflow, keeps its value afloat

The current monetary system intentionally discourage saving by inflation and punish savers, but the demand for saving still exists, especially in new generations that seek early retirement, so it ends up with higher price for capital goods, bitcoin is also one of them
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
I believe it still needs demand for the price to go up though, this is just like a demand and supply law for fiat money.
If for instance US wants to buy products from Japan, they would need YEN before they can do so. And so YEN's demand go up and so is its value.
IF bitcoin merchants only accepts bitcoin for the fear of chargebacks, this means people will have to buy BTCs thus making BTC value go up.

Yen's value is not directly related to the demand of Japanese goods, this is clearly proved by the Plaza Accord which made Japanese Yen doubled its value against USD over 3 years. Central banks can easily manipulate the forex exchange rate with their large reserve, which is magnitudes larger than the import/export of a country

Similarly, bitcoin's value is not directly related to the transaction demand of bitcoin (which is very little) but affected by those large capitals on exchanges. The demand does not come from transaction, but from investment, larger effect

In anyone's eyes, bitcoin is no difference than a foreign currency that does not accepted by majority of merchants in his country. Suppose that bitcoin is selected by a small pacific country as its national currency, and maybe no one will ever travel to that country in their life time, would that make bitcoin suddenly more or less valuable ?  No, it is still the exchange decide its value, and has nothing to do with the GDP of that country, since the economy activity of that country is too small comparing with the capital flows on exchanges
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1018

I believe it still needs demand for the price to go up though, this is just like a demand and supply law for fiat money.
If for instance US wants to buy products from Japan, they would need YEN before they can do so. And so YEN's demand go up and so is its value.
IF bitcoin merchants only accepts bitcoin for the fear of chargebacks, this means people will have to buy BTCs thus making BTC value go up.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
I thought that hoarding = less monetary supply = more value. Doesn't hoarding promote bitcoin's value then?

Hoarding will matter till a point of time, until money starts circulating around quickly (Money velocity).
Once money velocity is high, increase in hoarding will not matter.
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6948
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Interesting, OP, and I like your considered arguments very much.  I do believe this is like precious metals, which no one uses in transactions anymore--yet they certainly are a pretty reliable store of value.  Thanks for posting what you did.  I don't have a background in economics, but I find it fascinating.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 508
LOTEO
No matter how much the transaction demand is, if a money is quickly losing its value every day, it will be refused in transaction. This is also the first mandate of FED, e.g. low inflation rate
This is a very good argument. Initially I thought transactions create the value, but trust is much more important.

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