Bitcoin ecosystem’s weakness - page 2.

stompix

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Quote from: pooya87 on November 16, 2021, 08:28:38 AM

I don't think 15% is consider a net importer,

If you sell oil of 10 billion and you import of 10 billion and once cent you're a net importer, that's the definition, if imports outweigh exports you're a net importer.

Quote from: pooya87 on November 16, 2021, 08:28:38 AM

besides a small country with a very small population of about 6-7 million is not supposed to produce that much electricity because there has never been that much demand for it.

If you import energy then there is demand... Grin

Quote from: pooya87 on November 16, 2021, 08:28:38 AM

I'm not an expert but if demand rises, the infrastructure will be built to meet the demand.

This is also limited:
https://www.cne.gob.sv/tema/energias-renovables-2/energia-geotermica/
The maximum installed capacity would be at around 800MW, that's not even two nuclear reactors, of course, they could try and cover the country with solar panels but...that works only during the day, miners need energy 24/7.

It's pretty simple, you can't depend on a country that produces 6twh a year to host at least 44twh. Only a large country with enough spare capacity can do it, that's why both Iran and Kazakhstan were caught off guard by a few tens of thousands of miners settling down, right now there are only three countries in the world that have enough spare capacity to host the entire hashrate, and it's a pretty normal and obvious thing.

pooya87

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Quote from: stompix on November 16, 2021, 08:05:33 AM

Salvador is a net importer of electric energy!
The entire production capacity of the country couldn't power more than 1/6 of the current hashrate even if we assume the most efficient gear in terms of j/Gh.

I don't think 15% is consider a net importer, besides a small country with a very small population of about 6-7 million is not supposed to produce that much electricity because there has never been that much demand for it.
I'm not an expert but if demand rises, the infrastructure will be built to meet the demand.

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And if you think that the EU with its crazy eco-movement where everything is solar and wind is too far away from banning anything related to fossil fuel you're deeply mistaken.

The only problem EU currently has is Putin's boot on their neck as he is controlling the gas flow to EU and he has decreased it recently to push the price up. Otherwise their eco-movement is a joke and will be forgotten when Russia loosens the valves to let more gas reach EU.

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Quote from: Vaskiy on November 15, 2021, 07:18:14 PM

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around.

Salvador is a net importer of electric energy!
The entire production capacity of the country couldn't power more than 1/6 of the current hashrate even if we assume the most efficient gear in terms of j/Gh.
And no, there is no magical geothermal well that out of the blue will produce that energy.

Quote from: davis196 on November 16, 2021, 07:12:43 AM

The government will have to ban all the businesses and households that are consuming "dirty" electricity as well.All businesses should be treated equally.Right? Grin

That's exactly what China is doing Grin

, they have a list of activities that are going to be phased out completely, one criteria is how energy intensive that activity is.
And if you think that the EU with its crazy eco-movement where everything is solar and wind is too far away from banning anything related to fossil fuel you're deeply mistaken. Politicians here are ready to tell us to stay in cold and have rationalized electricity and planned blackouts rather than admitting we can't live a normal life without "dirty" energy.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 16, 2021, 07:41:49 AM

It was Iran. Plus the U.S. and Kazakhstan.

Actually most of them moved to Kazakhstan. Iran had a nice hash rate before the China ban. In fact during Trump era Iran included bitcoin in their annual budget to be used for imports/exports too but everything about Iran's international trades is kept under wraps (unless it is with another sanctioned nation or China) so we don't really know the real values.
By my estimates according to some reports of energy consumption and the taxes, I believe Iran currently has a little less than 20% of the total hashrate and that is growing fast.
Keep in mind that electricity in Iran has always been dirt cheap (0.002 $/KWH), a lot less than China.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Vaskiy on November 15, 2021, 07:18:14 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 15, 2021, 07:36:17 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on November 13, 2021, 11:13:48 AM

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China) Grin

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around.

Because El Salvador is a Nation-State-HODLer. They will need to secure their investment’s success. Part of Bitcoin’s success is motivated by incentives and greed.

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When the Chinese government made a ban, more miners moved to Iraq, and within a short the illegal usage of electricity on mining peaked whereas only 5% did it with proper registration. So, they took steps to have control over it and restricted. Then once again the government allowed mining. So, one way or the other the process will continue without any big impact to the network.

It was Iran. Plus the U.S. and Kazakhstan.

davis196

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1.This is just a proposal,not an actual ban.There's no need to panic over proposals,gossips and all kinds of unnecessary drama.
2.The idea of banning a business,just because that business consumes "dirty" electricity which was produced by burning coal is ridiculous.The government will have to ban all the businesses and households that are consuming "dirty" electricity as well.All businesses should be treated equally.Right? Grin

3.Sweden and Europe in general aren't important for crypto mining at all,so why do you even care about this news.
4.The idea of reviving ASICs mining doesn't sound good to me.It will create more problems rather than become a solution for the fake "environmental" crypto mining problem.

SFR10

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 12, 2021, 09:20:39 PM

However, the regulators can always have the ability to ban cryptomining because it has become a business that needs regulator permits and licenses to begin operation or be approved to operate.
~Snipped~
Users should be given back the ability to mine in the privacy of their own homes where the government has no right to stop them.

Even if that becomes the law, realistically, they can't stop every single miner in those regions! The small-scale miners with access to renewable sources ^{[e.g. solar panels]} at home, will continue their operations and I wouldn't be surprised to see other home miners ^{[with only a few mining rigs]} underclocking what they already have ^{[with schedules mining times]} so it wouldn't be obvious that they're mining at home!
^{- In other words, that's not a weakness!}

Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 15, 2021, 07:36:17 AM

and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

By hodling it, they're not actually using it and I don't think it could have a positive impact on the issue in question.

Fundamentals Of

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Why is this a weakness of the Bitcoin ecosystem? PoW is one of the strengths of Bitcoin. But this is barely about the Bitcoin ecosystem. This is more about the opponents and critics of Bitcoin looking for a way to counter its ever increasing global influence. But this will not succeed. The opponents and critics of Bitcoin should rather focus on the weakness of fiat and the fiat economy and improve them because their failure is the fuel of Bitcoin. Right now the level of fiat inflation is adding more fuel to the Bitcoin fire.

Vaskiy

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 15, 2021, 07:36:17 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on November 13, 2021, 11:13:48 AM

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China) Grin

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

Right now one such country is El Salvador. Already they've booked a big profit out of bitcoin adoption. Now the government will whole heartedly welcome miners, if something like a ban happens around. When the Chinese government made a ban, more miners moved to Iraq, and within a short the illegal usage of electricity on mining peaked whereas only 5% did it with proper registration. So, they took steps to have control over it and restricted. Then once again the government allowed mining. So, one way or the other the process will continue without any big impact to the network.

Tumanggor

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fud and resistance to bitcoin continues to emerge and it will not weaken the bitcoin ecosystem

The EU may restrict the movement of miners but not miners in other continents. at this time no country really has a strong influence on the price of bitcoin except the US and as long as the US does not strictly prohibit bitcoin then the price of bitcoin will remain strong

fiulpro

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Problem with license is that :
Generally they are very expensive for the individual miners since the general cost of mining includes the excessive cost of electricity as well. Which does mean that the rules and regulations set by the government might be harmful for the individual/small miners but they would be very much more important for the mining firms, which can swiftly take over the hash rate.

Therefore I do think as long as the marker is dominated by mining companies, there won't be any bigger/ excessive change.

Other than that I do think the legality of owning an ASIC is not one sided, it's much dependent upon the government as well.

ASIC resistance is something that might not work worldwide.

rizqoAD

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In my opinion, various prohibitions or regulations to stop the development of Bitcoin in various countries are being carried out, this is because the government does not want Bitcoin to continue to grow and shift the position of fiat, this is unavoidable in my opinion because we as ordinary people want a financial alternative that is resistant to inflation, Bitcoin is here to solve that problem. Now as the development of Bitcoin is increasingly accepted by the public, regulations continue to be made by regulators to stop its development.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 13, 2021, 11:13:48 AM

I can guarantee you.... there will always be a country that would give a big f_ck you to the rest of the world ...and they will allow Bitcoin and Crypto mining. When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China) Grin

El Salvador is that country. I believe others like Iran, and other nation-states that are being sanctioned, and those that will be sanctioned will use the currency that solves the problem of censorship. Once HODLed, and the value of the protocol is truly realized, the HODLer-state will protect it, help/add value to it.

Ararbermas

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 12, 2021, 09:20:39 PM

I reckon there should be a development and engineering team formed to research on Asic resistance. Users should be given back the ability to mine in the privacy of their own homes where the government has no right to stop them.

well probably there are some factors that we don't understand since we're not there on their country and experience what they experienced because of mining activities.. But yeah i will agree that instead of banning the crypto mining perhaps its a good idea if they should start asking for authorization wherein in order to reduce the cost of energy and of course to avoid massive problem again.. Not to implement ban immediately in order to remove all those activities because it's like no mercy for all miners.

Coyster

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Sooner or later, governments will realize that most of their attempted regulations/sanctions can't really affect the Bitcoin network for too long, it would only have a short term effect, but in the long run, Bitcoin would definitely be fine. The whole attack on Bitcoin through the erroneous impression that "Bitcoin is harmful for the environment" is just one of the many ploys of the government to discredit Bitcoin, and if they decide that they do not want Bitcoin mining farms in their countries, then other countries will gladly accept miners, there is no sort of monopoly in this situation. Having said that, I believe that in years to come, many of these countries that are currently hostile to the Bitcoin network would prolly have a change of heart, it has happened previously on many occasions, and this wouldn't be a surprise either.

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 13, 2021, 11:13:48 AM

-snip-
You will even see people moving their whole Bitcoin operation from these "banned" countries to the Bitcoin friendly countries and everything will stay the same. (Like we saw with the Chinese banning Bitcoin mining in China) Grin

Learn from the china incident that expelled every miner from china and made the miners move to countries that were pro with bitcoin and became a new field for countries that accepted them as miners.

Countries that accept miners naturally have an advantage.

Currently miners are also aware of the importance of using renewable and environmentally friendly energy, this will also encourage the bitcoin ecosystem to be better.

Countries that adopt bitcoin such as El Salvador are also creating their own bitcoin mining industry by harnessing energy from active volcanoes and this is an innovative use of natural energy.

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Quote from: pooya87 on November 13, 2021, 02:33:18 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 12, 2021, 09:20:39 PM

If they ban it or regulate it, this presently shows a weakness in the bitcoin ecosystem.

Bangladesh banned bitcoin many years ago and Japan, El Salvador, and a lot of other countries adopted bitcoin. Neither showed "weakness in bitcoin ecosystem", this one is no different.

I'd say it would be a weakness if Bitcoin mining couldn't be banned by any country. I like all this news about bans and blocks and sanctions, which continues to tell me that governments and states and legislators still cannot understand how Bitcoin works, and that lets me know I'm still a relatively early adopter.

Anyway, this is all targetted at commercial farms. Not blanket ban on the act of mining.

If Sweden one day brings to court an indie guy for mining crypto, they'll be the laughing stock of Scandinavia.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on November 12, 2021, 09:20:39 PM

Users should be given back the ability to mine in the privacy of their own homes where the government has no right to stop them.

Sounds good, doesn't work. Ethereum also envisioned that because of GPU mining they will have a more decentralized network, and yet no one really mines at home with their single GPU that they bought for gaming, almost all mining is done by farms, and they tend to be large data centers and not small-scale home farms. And don't forget how it ruined the GPU market and GPUs essentially got turned into professional tools unavailable for general population.

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Quote from: DaveF on November 13, 2021, 10:13:12 AM

Keep in mind, if you follow the OPs post they are somewhat anti-bitcoin or at least anti-POW. Or at least they come off they way IMO.
But, much like the China ban or any other ban it really does not matter.
There are more then enough places to mine, and several places that are actively enticing miners to mine. Several states in the US, and countries all over the world.

The current PoW is not a weakness it's a strength. If you don't like us mining here, we will pack out crap and move and a few months later we are back where people want us.

-Dave

This was my thinking as I read through the thread, Sweden banning Bitcoin mining
(farms) will only open the door for some other country to benefit from the miners
who abandon Sweden. Its sweden's loss.

Maybe sweden is picking and choosing how they meet their emissions targets
and they are picking Bitcoin rather than the obvious fossil fuel industry as mentioned
above by @Darker45, blinker vision again.

stompix

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 13, 2021, 11:13:48 AM

When the hashing power goes down... the difficulty goes down and these people in those countries will once again be able to mine Bitcoin with GPU's and CPU's.

Yeah right... Roll Eyes

An Nvidia 3090 does 5000 Mh/s that's by comparison 1/20000 what a S19j does.
So if every family on this planet would have a card that in some places is 6 times more expensive than the average wage, you could still perform a 51% attack with just 100k ASICs. Oh and we will burn 100x times the energy we do now!

The moment the coin is profitable again to mine with a GPU not even thinking of a CPU it is probably after an asteroid impact that left only 0.001% of the population and no electrical grid on the surface of the earth.

Topic: Bitcoin ecosystem’s weakness - page 2. (Read 548 times)