Topic: Bitcoin ETFs - Good or Bad? - page 4. (Read 817 times)

Everything has merits and demerits, but when it comes to Bitcoin ETFs we have both the sides as institutions may get more control and they may use this to manipulate the market but let's first ask ourselves, aren't the market currently being manipulated by whales? It doesn't matter whether it's manipulated by the whales of cyrpto or institutions. But more people will be aware of Bitcoin after ETF approval and there would be a possible increase in adoption as well. Let's adapt to the current situation because we cannot make any changes single handedly because if we keep worrying about the possible outcome then we might be left behind.

I do not know why you are attacking my thread, when ETFs are the hot topic at the moment. Everyone are talking about it and trying to analyze the impact of this on Bitcoin. I have DM'ed Hhampuz on several occasions and he is very happy with my posting, so stop trying to discredit me to possibly gain a spot for yourself in his signature campaign. 

In any way... a lot of people on this forum still believe that "centralization" of Bitcoin are wrong. Institutional investment are not going directly into Bitcoin, but rather a centralized database that are off-chain. (So it is not a piece of paper, but rather a digital entry into a centralized ledger)

Thank you for the other users that are making constructive contributions to this thread, it is an important "angle" to this relevant discussion.

Why not exactly? You can't stop anyone from buying bitcoins. If you could, it wouldn't be trustless and censorship-free, meaning it would lose its most important feature.
And if we don't have any control over who is buying it, there's no point of asking such question.
Plus, with large financial institutions buying it, there's less risk of it getting banned.

Are there actually any developers out there trying to make it useful as a means of payment? Looks like the lightning network is all we have, but it's far from perfection. It seems like the "community" (whatever that means) quietly accepted Bitcoin becoming mostly a speculative instrument.


I think you mean "pseudonymity". Yeah, this is probably the main threat. When most investors choose to hold ETFs rather than real bitcoins, there's a greater risk of regulators pushing for delegalisation of any non-KYC wallets and other services.

Bitcoin is for everyone. I think in the past there have been talks about its massive adoption and even the financial institutions won't be able to stop it and yet, here they are.

Whether we like it or not, there's no way to stop whatever fuels this adoption of Bitcoin and the advantages and disadvantages that this Bitcoin Spot ETF brings to it.

Whatever happens, happens and that's what we have to embrace. One thing is that for sure is, Bitcoin's move isn't stagnant as an investment based on these events.

Bitcoin Spot ETFs will bring more capital to Bitcoin market and it can help Bitcoin to get higher price. It is good but there are other things like with Bitcoin Spot ETFs and companies from Wall Street, it will force SEC or CFTC and even the USA. Congress to make new laws and stricter regulations on this market.

With more and stricter regulations, in future this market will get less volatility and it means we will see something similar to gold market. It will happen when Bitcoin marketcap becomes much bigger and maybe we will have two or three more cycles to get to that big marketcap.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/assets-by-market-cap/

I was about to say something similar. Remember the day before the official ETF approval, when SEC's twitter profile posted that bitcoin ETFs were official approved? The price shot up from around 44k to almost 48k, only to fall down further after they deleted the tweet and claimed it was a hack. The day after, when it was finally official, the market didn't react in a similar fashion. And now, it's moving downwards, contrary to everyone's expectations. But it's not surprising because many people were saying that a big correction is around the corner. Maybe the last one before the halving hype.

It initially became hype and even fake news about ETFs made the price of Bitcoin rise.
But when the ETF was actually approved, after that the price of Bitcoin began to fall and finally arrived at the current price which touched $40k again and previously almost reached $50k.

ETFs have always been a never-ending drama, which makes the price of Bitcoin even more volatile.
Somehow it ended, and what will happen to the Bitcoin market after the halving occurs.
Whether the ETF will support bitcoin to continue rising to reach ATH or will it just be a fortune.

1. Nothing wrong with this. People can choose to use Bitcoin in whatever way they want. It's hard money, if they want to use it purely as an investment or store of value through an investment broker that is perfectly fine.


2. Commodity, currency...these are just labels. Bitcoin is what it is. ETFs existing don't change what it is. ETF doesn't change one line of code of the bitcoin protocol. Nothing is destroyed by ETFs existing.


3. This is basically a repeat of #1, and again, nothing wrong with this. PEOPLE decide if they want to buy an ETF or buy actual Bitcoin. They are free to decide what they want to do.


4. If this is talking about the issuers of the ETFs, they literally just have to buy and sell however much bitcoin according to how much of the ETF the investors are buying and selling. The issuers don't decide how much bitcoin they buy and sell. This is not manipulation, it's just an investment vehicle. Also I have no idea why some people equate ownership of bitcoins to ownership over Bitcoin. The two are not remotely the same thing. Bitcoin is decentralized and "ownership", if anything, would be the many thousands of bitcoin nodes and miners, not who owns how many Sats.


5. Don't even know why this point is being made. People investing in bitcoin through an ETF don't have access to the actual bitcoin so pseudo-anonymity isn't even an issue because they don't own bitcoin.


6. At a time when seemingly every other day someone makes a thread on here complaining about the tx fees (even when the fees are back down to like $2 lol) you are claiming that we are going to see an issue with fees not being high enough in the future even as Bitcoin adoption grows massively. I have no idea why anyone would ever worry about this because it is the opposite of a problem for Bitcoin. At not point will not-filled blocks ever be an issue, the issue is getting L2 solutions ready so that everyone isn't trying to cram into tiny blocks and paying ridiculous fees in the future. So this is a total non-worry.



Bitcoin ETFs are not a Knight on a white horse, not sure anyone would ever describe it as that. But it is also not some evil thing lol. Nothing whatsoever wrong with ETFs. Nobody is forced to buy the ETF instead of buying Sats. People are excited about ETF because it means more buying of Bitcoin and therefore a higher price, and a higher price means more people adopting Bitcoin (cuz let's be honest almost everyone first gets into bitcoin for its ability to increase one's wealth), so it means Bitcoin growth in the world. It is silly to try to make ETFs to be some bad evil thing just because it is very different than owning actual bitcoin. It's an investment vehicle that will lead to a higher price of bitcoin and therefore more bitcoin adoption, that's it. Neither good nor evil, but good for bitcoin adoption.

1. Yes, the more they buy and horde, the higher the price will go.
2. I do not understand how ETFs will destroy the " goal of Bitcoin becoming a currency ".
3. Lol. Ownership matters of Bitcoin ETF do not influence the actual Bitcoin price. As long as the ETF investors are creating a demand for real Bitcoin, that is all that matters.
4. - 6. TLDR.

Not all expectations come true. With Bitcoin / Bitcoin ETF too.

"The large institutional financial organisations" doesn't care what I do. Why should I care what they do?

Bitcoin will be what the crypto market makes. My wishes don't matter here. I believe that bitcoin ETF has nothing to do with the bitcoin becoming a currency, because the bitcoin turned into an investment asset without ever having time to become a full-fledged currency.

The same thing happens on any crypto exchanger. Nothing fundamentally has changed.

And before this, they didn’t have control and couldn’t cause strong price fluctuations? Really?

This was already available in ordinary crypto exchangers with KYC, which are the majority.

Miners will receive rewards for mining as before (circa 1st century). I'm sure this should be enough for them (for the next hundred years). By that time, bitcoin ETF will become indifferent to everyone.

I always thought Bitcoin ETF "Knight on the white horse" was dog shit wrapped in cat shit (or something like that).

I am not sure why OP is against EFTs as they are just a way for big financial institutions to make profits and help small investors like us. What I do not understand is the reason to come up with such a shit post after ETFs got approved. If Kakmakr was so not into ETF then what kind of response he gave is questionable as it is not related to ETFshere. It looks like he was more concerned with scams and why? I believe it was totally out of context as scams do not relate to Bitcoin ETF. What I felt after going through his posting history is that he is into gambling and with the recent decision by Hhampuz to remove fossils from his signature campaign he is trying to act as a realistic and active participant of a signature campaign. I have zero clue what he is trying to gain from this thread after ETFs have been approved.

Practically ETFs are nothing but a piece of paper given to anyone investing in Bitcoin. Whereas we as a community have the real satoshis in our wallets and we are proud of it. ETFs for me is a way to gain control over those who want to invest in Bitcoin but are clueless. It is evident with the current price of bitcoin, & that ETFs are not the ones we thought that the price of Bitcoin would pump. On the contrary, they made the Bitcoin price go down initially and it will remain the same till halving.

They and we are both for profit so no one will buy large amounts of bitcoin and lock it up without doing anything. Furthermore, even without ETFs, we have no way to prevent wealthy people from buying the majority of bitcoin. Bitcoin is for everyone and it is a trading market and buying and selling is always happening as long as you have the money.

Even without ETFs, bitcoin would never become a currency. Don't try to blame ETFs for bitcoin's failure to become a currency when even investors like us are turning bitcoin into an investment. We made Bitcoin an investment even before ETFs existed.

I've had thoughts like yours for a long time, but because of the hype, I finally didn't continue with those thoughts because Bitcoin investor friends always thought that ETF approval could create bullishness. When we talk about bullish that means for me it's a positive thing but on the other hand there is a point that we forget institutions want to control the market as they please. This idea continues to be opposed by everyone I know and they ignore the negatives. I admit that the existence of this ETF is a time bomb for Bitcoin because the control of large owners is no longer in the community but in a large entity which already has experience in the global market. Therefore, people now have to become aware and pay attention to the Bitcoin market. Is a bullish increase occurring? or vice versa? Maybe with this incident there are many of us who admit and say: it turns out Bitcoin is better off not being infiltrated by big institutions because this will create more differentiation between us retailers and those institutional whales.

If they keep buying, am sure they can't keep holding, those that have bought in the pass are by now releasing some of their holding, this same organizations too can run loss when the market becomes unfavourable on them and they can't afford to continue holding at a particular time.


No, but from where you're taking it isn't as how it was, Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency and there's nothing they can do about it, the whole issue with the bitcoin ETF is not something to mind it be focused on, they are only being dependent on the bitcoin market price and not the network itself.

Apparently, to every advantage their is always a disadvantage. The Bitcoin spot ETF gives investors more convenient and clear way to be exposed to the price movement of btc without much complexity there by increasing the adoption spread of Bitcoin
While the  regulatory uncertainty and the management fees could be a major problem.

1. Many platforms already did this, Binance, Coinbase etc, it's not only ETFs.

2. There's no relation ETFs will destroy Bitcoin as a currency, if you paid a house with Bitcoin, it means you're use Bitcoin as a currency regardless how much the amount is.

3. Same like number 1.

4. Same like number 1 and other rich people e.g. Nayib Bukele, Elon Musk etc.

5. Everyone has a choice to buy the real Bitcoin instead of the IOUs version.

6. Same like number 5.

You're overreacting ETFs will control Bitcoin when this case already happen since 2014 where Mt.Gox was the biggest centralized exchange. And it's definitely BAD.

Why are people afraid of manipulation from those funds because even without ETFs, the market is being manipulated by bigger players? Bitcoin and cryptocurrency has been a market rife with manipulation since its inception and it remains so until now, I think no one is unaware of that.

I'm not saying ETFs are good but everything has its pros and cons. Perhaps now funds like blackrock and greyscale are using their power and wealth to manipulate the market. But why don't we think further when in the future there will be many funds and investors participating in the market and helping the market become even stronger? And once the market gets bigger, price manipulation gradually disappears.

ETFs will indeed reduce bitcoin's decentralization, but that's the price we have to pay if we want bitcoin to become more popular.

Many of the fears that I thought about the bitcoin ETF before when it was approved, some things like what you mentioned in points 4 and 6, this will become a reality and will be easily manipulated by certain parties, especially by Blackrock itself which has a large enough fund to move the price of bitcoin or even carry out activities that can harm many real bitcoin investors due to price manipulation, but maybe if the financial companies that propose this bitcoin ETF will not stay silent with each other, because in my opinion they are also in the scope of competition, there will be conflict if one of them is detected manipulation and or kill each other. IMO

yes this is a destiny that we cannot interfere with, whether or not we agree with the bitcoin ETF will not have any influence on the outcome of the decision and what has happened, everyone has the freedom to use bitcoin or treat bitcoin.

I think ETFs are inevitable. If the SEC doesn't approve it this year, then as bitcoin becomes more popular they will find a way to regulate it. Maybe you don't expect ETF but I believe you also expect that bitcoin will become popular worldwide. And one thing you need to know is that for bitcoin to become popular in the world, it will be impossible to avoid the intervention of governments, legal agencies...Without their permission, I believe that bitcoin becoming popular in the world would never have happened. Our world is a centralized world controlled by the government, we cannot expect bitcoin to change the entire centralization of the world.

tl;dr is that there are pros and cons to having a Bitcoin spot ETF. But regardless if the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa, there's really nothing we can do, right? Bitcoin is permissionless and is both for your closest friends and for your toughest enemies.