Bitcoin "insecure" investment - media.

piramida

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Borsche

Quote from: Richard Branson on February 02, 2014, 04:39:23 AM

Quote from: piramida on February 02, 2014, 01:52:18 AM

Use MultiBit. Of course it's vulnerable to keylogger + trojan, but even more so is your bank account, so don't keep more than the spending money there.

Bank account is more vulnerable?
A keylogger or a trojan is not enough to "hack" your bank account.
They all use 2 factor auth.

Well, to send your money in many banks you just need the password + keyfile, which is exactly the same as wallet + password. Some do email 2FA which is a very weak 2FA kind. Any bitcoin wallet with a google auth 2FA is much more secure than a regular bank.

Richard Branson

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Screw It, Let's Do It

Quote from: piramida on February 02, 2014, 01:52:18 AM

Use MultiBit. Of course it's vulnerable to keylogger + trojan, but even more so is your bank account, so don't keep more than the spending money there.

Bank account is more vulnerable?
A keylogger or a trojan is not enough to "hack" your bank account.
They all use 2 factor auth.

It's time for 2 factor auth bitcoin wallets.
But the weak link will allways be the wallet password and auth, which is way less strong than bitcoin cryptography.

atc1

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Quote from: Ibian on January 31, 2014, 06:30:51 PM

Oh good. Negative media often means bullish price.

Really?

piramida

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Borsche

Quote from: MatTheCat on January 31, 2014, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 06:28:32 PM

the news that Bitcoin is vulnerable to hacking. The Media is pushing that Bitcoin is not a 'secure' investment. sure, risky maybe, but insecure?

Whats going on? whats the buzz?

I think this is plain bearish sentiment Grin

Already, the Bitcoin folder tucked away in a hidden system folder on Windows is about 32GB in size. When the files corrupt, it becomes a real pain in the arsehole trying to get the blockchain back up to date in order to use my cold store wallet again. Just wait until the blockchain grows to 32TB in size (and given time it will). Then hardly anyone will have a secure offline wallet stored on a USB stick like most of us have access to currently. Instead we will all be using third party wallet providers, whose systems will be liable to hack attacks.

Damn Mat you scare me really with a level of incompetence you show here. It is not 2009 anymore, you don't have to store blockchain unless you are a miner which you are not. Do your homework, please. Use MultiBit. Of course it's vulnerable to keylogger + trojan, but even more so is your bank account, so don't keep more than the spending money there. The rest in cold. Anybody can do this, even you Wink

empoweoqwj

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Quote from: Richard Branson on February 01, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: RyNinDaCleM on February 01, 2014, 03:24:22 PM

To "hack" Bitcoin, you must crack the 2nd strongest crypto algorithm in existence (not likely anytime soon)

Problems:
Average Joe won't use cold storage
They will use a wallet with a few problems:

Multibit and others don't use a 2-factor auth.
They are very vulnerable to keyloggers and brute force attacks, if you can steal the wallet.dat (pretty easy).

Online wallets are more secure, but a lot of them get "hacked", that means a
the operator or other involved guys steals all the funds.

Bitcoin is only secure to use with cold storage and that's not practical for daily usage.

Hardware wallets are "coming soon". I agree Average Joe + current wallets aren't a good mix and he won't be using cold storage. Let's see whether hardware wallets can help Average Joe out.

Holliday

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Quote from: Richard Branson on February 01, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Bitcoin is only secure to use with cold storage and that's not practical for daily usage.

Have you ever used Armory?

I can create and sign an offline transaction in under a minute.

When sheer convenience is required, I transfer spending money from an Armory offline wallet to something like Mycelium, which is incredibly easy to use.

Anyway, dedicated hardware like Trezor and it's competitors will make this even easier in the near future.

Richard Branson

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Screw It, Let's Do It

Quote from: RyNinDaCleM on February 01, 2014, 03:24:22 PM

To "hack" Bitcoin, you must crack the 2nd strongest crypto algorithm in existence (not likely anytime soon)

Problems:
Average Joe won't use cold storage
They will use a wallet with a few problems:

Multibit and others don't use a 2-factor auth.
They are very vulnerable to keyloggers and brute force attacks, if you can steal the wallet.dat (pretty easy).

Online wallets are more secure, but a lot of them get "hacked", that means a
the operator or other involved guys steals all the funds.

Bitcoin is only secure to use with cold storage and that's not practical for daily usage.

HeliKopterBen

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The conundrum is with user action. Coins can be completely secure until a user interacts with the system. Then it is very difficult to verify that the user did not make a mistake on their end.

I always like to use the legacy financial system as a model. How do banks prevent funds from being sent to the wrong party? They implement identity verification and price controls on both ends of the transaction.

What if someone wants to "be their own bank" with traditional money? Well, storing traditional money without the use of a third party is very insecure at best. Bitcoin has solved this problem.

Unfortunately for the average user, using a third party service with identity verificarion and price controls will likely be the route they will ultimately have to take because they lack the knowledge to "be their own bank", unless some kind of hardware wallet or killer app comes out that solves the user problem.

Fortunately for the pros and advanced users, you now have the ability to store your wealth in a manner that is more secure than Fort Knox without the trust of a third party, something that is unprecedented in the history of the world.

RyNinDaCleM

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Legen -wait for it- dary

Quote from: crocko on February 01, 2014, 02:35:02 AM

Quote from: aminorex on January 31, 2014, 08:03:58 PM

Quote from: crocko on January 31, 2014, 07:11:00 PM

Media isn't right.
You will need an online wallet / PC connected to Internet. You can't be isolated !
Why ?
Because:
- you mine to a pool and the payment is set on "auto" mode ..
- there is a person who want to make a donation / give you back a debt and your computer is offline..
- you sleep / do an activity that exclude the use of the PC [connected to Internet]
- your bitcoin-qt need to be updated in order to be used; you can't sent / receive any BTC if the client is out of sync Shocked

You do not need to be running wallet software in order to receive payments. Please completely revise your understanding of how bitcoin works.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I will look like a fool for only 5 min if I ask and I will look like a fool for eternity if I don't.
A wallet works in the same way like an email service ?
I know that in case of email, the messages are stored on a server. But in case of a Bitcoin transaction who play this role ?
If your affirmation is entirely true, why the webpage from Bitcoin.org recommend for eg. blockchain.info ?
And if you use an Desktop wallet, you still need to connect it to the Internet to be updated, because you can't send/receive BTC if the client is out of sync !! It's works the same way like an antivirus, you will need to update it with the latest signatures if you plan to scan your PC for the latest threats..
The alternative is to rely on the downloaded updates from unsecure 3rd party (I saw this on a very known torrent).
IMO opinion, the cold storage with 100% Internet isolation it is just a myth.
At some point you will need to send/receive BTC (or other coins) and use this wallet Cool

crocko,
You can create a wallet, copy and paste a hundred public addresses to a text document and save it.
Then copy and paste the wallet.dat from your Bitcoin folder to some other storage device like a USB stick.
Then you can safely delete the wallet.dat from your computer.

When someone needs to send Bitcoin to you, you would tell them one of the hundred addresses you saved earlier, and they can send to that address (You still have complete control over the coins in that address because you saved the wallet.dat which contains the private keys to all those addresses)
At this point, you can receive BTC until you have all 21,000,000 coins with no need to connect to the internet. You will have to run a client eventually to send those coins, but not to receive...
Most wallet sites and wallet apps for the PC allow you to import those private keys, so running a client is not absolutely necessary, but I prefer to use on than an online wallet any day.

Edit:
Blockchain.info is really just an easy way to view the public ledger that is the blockchain. They are not the server that stores the BTC nor are they an integral part of Bitcoin.

Edit #2:
To "hack" Bitcoin, you must crack the 2nd strongest crypto algorithm in existence (not likely anytime soon)

empoweoqwj

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Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 11:37:19 PM

Quote from: empoweoqwj on January 31, 2014, 10:35:30 PM

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 06:28:32 PM

Im always trying to educate my friends about Bitcoin. I'll offer them 5000 satoshis if they open a wallet.

here is an interesting trend I have recently encountered. Several of my friends have come back and declined the offer, the reason, they have read on

the news that Bitcoin is vulnerable to hacking. The Media is pushing that Bitcoin is not a 'secure' investment. sure, risky maybe, but insecure?

Whats going on? whats the buzz?

I think this is plain bearish sentiment Grin

Friends refusing free money. You must have rich friends Wink

Seriously, people will believe what they want. Sounds like (no offence) these friends aren't very tech-savvy if they think owning bitcoins is opening you up to being hacked.

It is truly frustrating,
Maybe they think I'm part of a pyramid scheme.
They just dont realise how easy it is to open a digital wallet. is that such an intimidating thing to say? "digital wallet"? maybe they fell the need to understand exactly what it is before they can do that. Few make it past that point.
Its easier and safer than opening an email account.
mixed feelings I guess. we are all glad to be well ahead of the herd.

People are afraid of the unknown. And if they have been spoonfed crap by the mainstream media, the reaction is not unexpected. But soon bitcoin will be so ubiquitous these people will start to feel "left out", and join the herd.

Ibian

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All bitcoins are on the blockchain. Your wallet just gives access to it. Only senders need to be connected, and only for the few seconds it takes to send.

crocko

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'All that glitters is not gold'

Quote from: aminorex on January 31, 2014, 08:03:58 PM

Quote from: crocko on January 31, 2014, 07:11:00 PM

Media isn't right.
You will need an online wallet / PC connected to Internet. You can't be isolated !
Why ?
Because:
- you mine to a pool and the payment is set on "auto" mode ..
- there is a person who want to make a donation / give you back a debt and your computer is offline..
- you sleep / do an activity that exclude the use of the PC [connected to Internet]
- your bitcoin-qt need to be updated in order to be used; you can't sent / receive any BTC if the client is out of sync Shocked

You do not need to be running wallet software in order to receive payments. Please completely revise your understanding of how bitcoin works.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I will look like a fool for only 5 min if I ask and I will look like a fool for eternity if I don't.
A wallet works in the same way like an email service ?
I know that in case of email, the messages are stored on a server. But in case of a Bitcoin transaction who play this role ?
If your affirmation is entirely true, why the webpage from Bitcoin.org recommend for eg. blockchain.info ?
And if you use an Desktop wallet, you still need to connect it to the Internet to be updated, because you can't send/receive BTC if the client is out of sync !! It's works the same way like an antivirus, you will need to update it with the latest signatures if you plan to scan your PC for the latest threats..
The alternative is to rely on the downloaded updates from unsecure 3rd party (I saw this on a very known torrent).
IMO opinion, the cold storage with 100% Internet isolation it is just a myth.
At some point you will need to send/receive BTC (or other coins) and use this wallet Cool

chessnut

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Merit: 1001

Quote from: empoweoqwj on January 31, 2014, 10:35:30 PM

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 06:28:32 PM

Im always trying to educate my friends about Bitcoin. I'll offer them 5000 satoshis if they open a wallet.

here is an interesting trend I have recently encountered. Several of my friends have come back and declined the offer, the reason, they have read on

the news that Bitcoin is vulnerable to hacking. The Media is pushing that Bitcoin is not a 'secure' investment. sure, risky maybe, but insecure?

Whats going on? whats the buzz?

I think this is plain bearish sentiment Grin

Friends refusing free money. You must have rich friends Wink

Seriously, people will believe what they want. Sounds like (no offence) these friends aren't very tech-savvy if they think owning bitcoins is opening you up to being hacked.

It is truly frustrating,
Maybe they think I'm part of a pyramid scheme.
They just dont realise how easy it is to open a digital wallet. is that such an intimidating thing to say? "digital wallet"? maybe they fell the need to understand exactly what it is before they can do that. Few make it past that point.
Its easier and safer than opening an email account.
mixed feelings I guess. we are all glad to be well ahead of the herd.

empoweoqwj

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 06:28:32 PM

Im always trying to educate my friends about Bitcoin. I'll offer them 5000 satoshis if they open a wallet.

here is an interesting trend I have recently encountered. Several of my friends have come back and declined the offer, the reason, they have read on

the news that Bitcoin is vulnerable to hacking. The Media is pushing that Bitcoin is not a 'secure' investment. sure, risky maybe, but insecure?

Whats going on? whats the buzz?

I think this is plain bearish sentiment Grin

Friends refusing free money. You must have rich friends Wink

Seriously, people will believe what they want. Sounds like (no offence) these friends aren't very tech-savvy if they think owning bitcoins is opening you up to being hacked.

Holliday

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I can make a bitcoin (or other cryptocurrency) more secure than another other asset on the planet.

I can't read code. I use windows. I don't have any special hardware.

What I did was invest enough of my time into learning how to secure bitcoins. With the resources available today, that should take someone about two hours (if they already have an understanding of Bitcoin itself, which anyone investing in Bitcoin obviously should).

Key words: Cold storage. Offline wallet. Paper wallet. M of N wallet. Multisig addresses.

I do believe that a few different hardware wallets are expected to be available for purchase this year, so those who don't want to invest the two hours will be able to buy secure hardware.

For those who prefer to trust new companies instead of learning how to secure bitcoins on their own, a new company called Elliptic plans to offer insured Bitcoin storage. https://www.elliptic.co/

Ultimately, whichever solution you choose, it is up to the individual to protect themselves.

TERA

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Tell them if they want a secure investment, they better go to their bank and open up a CD for 1% interest or whatever.

aminorex

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: crocko on January 31, 2014, 07:11:00 PM

Media isn't right.
You will need an online wallet / PC connected to Internet. You can't be isolated !
Why ?
Because:
- you mine to a pool and the payment is set on "auto" mode ..
- there is a person who want to make a donation / give you back a debt and your computer is offline..
- you sleep / do an activity that exclude the use of the PC [connected to Internet]
- your bitcoin-qt need to be updated in order to be used; you can't sent / receive any BTC if the client is out of sync Shocked

You do not need to be running wallet software in order to receive payments. Please completely revise your understanding of how bitcoin works.

MatTheCat

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Quote from: ampere9765 on January 31, 2014, 07:37:34 PM

yes i would agree with that. maybe not $5k but considerably up from here, and maybe even more. despite that, i do truly think we are very far from bitcoin being accessible to Joe Blow (and his grandma)

Man ampere, you seem like such a fucking hero compared to Joe Blow.....and his grandma.

ampere9765

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Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 07:33:11 PM

Quote from: ampere9765 on January 31, 2014, 07:22:18 PM

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 07:12:31 PM

I lost you when you mentioned 'Windows' Tongue

Windows is just plain insecure.

BINGO. this is what i'm talking about. good luck getting the average prole to understand why this is.

so then I guess by default we will be ahead of the crowd for a long time yet. I can see bitcoin passing $5000 before 'easy' software is introduced to keep your coins safe.

yes i would agree with that. maybe not $5k but considerably up from here, and maybe even more. despite that, i do truly think we are very far from bitcoin being accessible to Joe Blow (and his grandma)

chessnut

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Quote from: ampere9765 on January 31, 2014, 07:22:18 PM

Quote from: chessnut on January 31, 2014, 07:12:31 PM

I lost you when you mentioned 'Windows' Tongue

Windows is just plain insecure.

BINGO. this is what i'm talking about. good luck getting the average prole to understand why this is.

so then I guess by default we will be ahead of the crowd for a long time yet. I can see bitcoin passing $5000 before 'easy' software is introduced to keep your coins safe.

Topic: Bitcoin "insecure" investment - media. (Read 3789 times)