Bitcoin is a “safe haven asset” - page 8.

Mr.right85

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Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

For me, this is the first time I've seen a traditional company admit and call bitcoin a safe haven and consider it superior to gold. What do you think about this and should we stop calling bitcoin a risky investment?

Backing that with the amount of Bitcoin the company holds would have been a great means to back up there statement.

I have no doubt Bitcoin is a safe haven when compared with other cryptocurrencies but,comparing it to gold, gold to have existed through centuries, backed by government and serves as foreign reserves for both firms, countries and individuals, I don't know what I would say with Bitcoin still having a decade on its shoulders.

I see Bitcoin to be an asset of real value but, I would like to keep it out of this comparison. Its volatile nature doesn't really fit in for a safe haven, does it? Although, there are chances you might get more or less value for holdings depending on when you choose to withdraw.

Hamza2424

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What a topic title, I would say Bitcoin is life. At least in my case my biggest exploration so far is Bitcoin, and I expect more in the coming time. I've learned most of the finance from this form and in my financial planning Bitcoin holds a major role to play, I'm preparing myself in multi-dimension to test myself with Bitcoin and my financial strategies.

I'm hoping for promising outcomes, and I'm pretty confident about it as well, before getting married I have some decent goals to achieve and all this will be possible with Bitcoin (InsAllah with Allah's blessing).

Lorence.xD

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Quote from: lombok on October 27, 2023, 12:14:08 PM

Bitcoin is high risk for someone who doesn't understand investment (newbies without investment knowledge), but for someone or a professional who understands Bitcoin is the best safe haven investment. The long-term growth value is very impressive and 100x superior to any type of investment that has ever existed. Many even say that Bitcoin is better than gold in the investment return performance category.

In the long term, Bitcoin is still the king of investments.

Well, I agree with your statement, however, Bitcoin's nature is volatility, where the value of the market could go increase or go fall, so there's still a risk involved even if you have knowledge, which we all can agree, so in short Bitcoin being called safe haven it's more like the first thing comes to my mind is like the analyzation of data, and you could still get liquidated, meaning it's not stable. But if we were talking about long term investment, then for sure this is literally the safest haven for people especially the rich one, as they just simply invest and their money grows in a period of time. If we're gonna compare Bitcoin to Gold in which is the safer haven, of course mostly it's the stable one where you won't get stress and would expect profits as well in years, especially now Gold is in demand.

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Bitcoin is not a safe heaven asset. It is super volatile and it can go to any direction at any point of time. Safe heaven assets are usually stable in nature and gives you capital protection. For example gold can be considered as a safe heaven asset because of less volatility and past returns.

If you want capital protection and piece of mind invest in Gold and not in Bitcoin. You can definitely invest in Bitcoin to get good returns but you need to remember that Bitcoin can show you losses as well.

HONDACD125

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Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

Previously, not only did the world consider bitcoin a highly volatile and high-risk asset, but even those of us who invested in bitcoin considered it a high-risk asset. But I think we should gradually change that concept as well as change the way we call it, bitcoin is no longer a risky asset. Recently AllianceBernstein, an asset manager with $699 billion, called bitcoin a safe haven and even more attractive than gold.

For me, this is the first time I've seen a traditional company admit and call bitcoin a safe haven and consider it superior to gold. What do you think about this and should we stop calling bitcoin a risky investment?

Bitcoin is still a volatile asset, but we can not consider it a high risk asset. I think one of the reasons why people call it a high-risk asset is that it can give you good returns, but investing at the wrong time can also cause more losses. When its price can drop from $67k to $15k, people will definitely think of this fear while investing. However, it is definitely safe in terms of investment, If one has the patience to hold on and can wait.

I think Alliance Bernstein's position is absolutely right. Bitcoin may be more attractive than gold ,because its profits are much higher than gold. Therefore many people prefer Bitcoin investment over gold. It would be wrong to call Bitcoin a risky investment, and of course saying so would be disturbing for those investing in Bitcoin. There are certain risks involved in every investment, it would be wrong to associate the risks only with Bitcoin.

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Quote from: philipma1957 on October 27, 2023, 12:07:58 PM

So dark bro.

btw using 2022 to 2023 to say it was bad for inflation is not as good as using 2021 to 2023 to say it was bad for inflation.
here is why BTC low for 2021 was about 28 k in June btc high in 2023 is about 35k I would argue
it kind of matched inflation using the worst 2021 number and the best 2023 number.
while btc was 15.5k in nov 2022 and got to 35k in 2023 which smokes inflation.

It's dark but it is what it is!
Inflation was not a problem till February 2021, it was in the ~1% range, Bitcoin touched 50k as inflation kept creeping, Bitcoin reached the last ATH as we had 5% inflation, then it went down with every month or higher, and higher inflation, the worst months of inflation saw also Bitcoin price going down from 40k to 20k.
We're bouncing now back in times of lower inflation, again under 3% as the previous run, 33% from the peak in June, so if anything, Bitcoins get better returns with lower inflation than higher!

In the month with the highest inflation recorded, we also had Bitcoin drop from 30 to 20k, safe heaven asset not so much!

Quote from: philipma1957 on October 27, 2023, 12:07:58 PM

while btc was 15.5k in nov 2022 and got to 35k in 2023 which smokes inflation.

Yes, but you're looking at a period when inflation is coming down.
So rather than BTC smoking anything you might think of money coming in BTC because the high inflation period is over and growth is resuming once the fear is over.

lombok

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Bitcoin is high risk for someone who doesn't understand investment (newbies without investment knowledge), but for someone or a professional who understands Bitcoin is the best safe haven investment. The long-term growth value is very impressive and 100x superior to any type of investment that has ever existed. Many even say that Bitcoin is better than gold in the investment return performance category.

In the long term, Bitcoin is still the king of investments.

bitzizzix

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“Trust” is a complicated word, and its meaning is different for everyone. I can only answer this question when I start to believe and understand Bitcoin and if talking in the long term I consider that Bitcoin is a safe asset and can store value and that has been proven.
And if I had to choose gold or Bitcoin, I would choose Bitcoin. Because it has been predicted and confirmed that the long-term increase in Bitcoin prices will be much higher than gold and is very safe and comfortable, I think so.

philipma1957

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Quote from: stompix on October 27, 2023, 11:17:40 AM

Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

Recently AllianceBernstein, an asset manager with $699 billion, called bitcoin a safe haven and even more attractive than gold.

Let's go by one definition:

Quote

A safe haven asset is one which is expected to maintain or increase in value during periods of economic uncertainty and market turbulence

A quick look back how Bitcoin performed during the high inflation period in 2022-23 and it's nowhere near the definition.
If you have the market cycles Bitcoin has had till now, you can consider it anything but safe asset, it does work if you spread the definition to long-term 4-8 year cycles, but if you go by that then pretty much every company in the stock exchange is qualifying like one. CocaCola is the leading safe asset in the world, with continuous growth for a century by that metric!

Let's go over more, without the heaven part:

Quote

Safe assets are assets which, in and of themselves, do not carry a high risk of loss across all types of market cycles.
Safe assets refer to low-risk assets that can weather market volatility
an asset that pays off a fixed amount with absolute certainty at some future date
A safe asset is defined as any debt asset that promises a fixed amount of money in the future with virtually no default risk

Not fitting in any of them!

Bitcoin is a good investment, it does provide returns over long period, it is safe, but simple it simply doesn't fit the definition, calling it such a thing right now is just wrong!
20 years from now on asvolatility will be probably one fraction of it, when adoption and liquidity will make swings based on some Twitter noise close to impossible, sure but it's just far away from it at this point..

So dark bro.

btw using 2022 to 2023 to say it was bad for inflation is not as good as using 2021 to 2023 to say it was bad for inflation.

here is why BTC low for 2021 was about 28 k in June btc high in 2023 is about 35k I would argue

it kind of matched inflation using the worst 2021 number and the best 2023 number.

while btc was 15.5k in nov 2022 and got to 35k in 2023 which smokes inflation.

puloweh555

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Quote from: Eternad on October 27, 2023, 11:25:36 AM

Bitcoin is the safest crypto assets in the market because it’s real decentralized and no one can manipulate the price but due to its volatile nature I’m not sure if Bitcoin can be categorized as safe haven.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. Safe haven aims to secure assets with minimal risk. The goal is to secure the value of his assets, not increase his wealth. In essence, the value of his past and present assets is the same or only slightly reduced. So I think gold is still the best choice to save assets from decreasing value. Correct me if I'm wrong

Bitcoin is indeed a safe haven for "now". The reason is because of the fact that the price of gold over the last 5 years has risen only around 60%, while Bitcoin in the last 5 years has risen around 350%, in the last 20 years the price of gold has risen around 431%, while Bitcoin in the last 10 years has risen around 22,250%, so you can concluded that Bitcoin is better than gold.

But remember, no system is 100% safe. Gold tends to be stable, because it is a clear, multifunctional asset, many people still use gold as a safe haven. Even though the decline will not be extreme like Bitcoin and vice versa. But don't just think about safe havens, you should also consider the risks.

Sim_card

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Since the creation of bitcoin it has been doing well in price due to the volatile nature. It is safe to invest in bitcoin for a long time and you will be having a good profit compare to that of gold. But this doesn't make it a safe haven, because we don't know the fate of bitcoin in future but gold has been in existence for a very long time which anyone that invest in gold can beat his chest and say in the next 50yrs, I will make good amount from my gold investment because gold is recognized world wide and is acceptable as an alternative payment method. This is why gold is a safe haven but bitcoin, we are still looking forward to see if it can be called a safe haven but not yet.

mindrust

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Tbh I don’t know what is fully safe anymore. Gold and bitcoin are as safe as you can get but even these assets have their weaknesses. Alphabet (google) lost 10% of its market cap recently. This is very alarming imo. If the conflict between Israel and Palestine spreads, we may see very wild moves in the markets. This reminds me of the covid drop which we had in 2020. These might be the last days of capitalism. We are only 6 years away from 2030. By 2030, we will not own anything they say. Maybe they will accomplish it successfully. A nuke here, a nuke there and suddenly everybody becomes as obedient as a sheep.

Eternad

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Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

For me, this is the first time I've seen a traditional company admit and call bitcoin a safe haven and consider it superior to gold. What do you think about this and should we stop calling bitcoin a risky investment?
https://blockworks.co/news/alliancebernstein-gold-bitcoin-returns

Bitcoin is too volatile to be called as safe haven asset but if the plan is long term then possibly right as long as there’s no interest being paid to the bank like what Microstrategy experience before during bearish market.

The company that said such statement show same positive remark on Bitcoin last 2020 which is the year when the previous bull run start. Possibly, they are heavily invested on Bitcoin since the last bullrun that’s why they said that statement to hype Bitcoin.

Source: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2020/11/30/investment-giant-alliancebernstein-now-says-bitcoin-has-role-in-investors-portfolios/

Bitcoin is the safest crypto assets in the market because it’s real decentralized and no one can manipulate the price but due to its volatile nature I’m not sure if Bitcoin can be categorized as safe haven.

stompix

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Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

Recently AllianceBernstein, an asset manager with $699 billion, called bitcoin a safe haven and even more attractive than gold.

Let's go by one definition:

Quote

A safe haven asset is one which is expected to maintain or increase in value during periods of economic uncertainty and market turbulence

A quick look back how Bitcoin performed during the high inflation period in 2022-23 and it's nowhere near the definition.
If you have the market cycles Bitcoin has had till now, you can consider it anything but safe asset, it does work if you spread the definition to long-term 4-8 year cycles, but if you go by that then pretty much every company in the stock exchange is qualifying like one. CocaCola is the leading safe asset in the world, with continuous growth for a century by that metric!

Let's go over more, without the heaven part:

Quote

Safe assets are assets which, in and of themselves, do not carry a high risk of loss across all types of market cycles.
Safe assets refer to low-risk assets that can weather market volatility
an asset that pays off a fixed amount with absolute certainty at some future date
A safe asset is defined as any debt asset that promises a fixed amount of money in the future with virtually no default risk

Not fitting in any of them!

Bitcoin is a good investment, it does provide returns over long period, it is safe, but simple it simply doesn't fit the definition, calling it such a thing right now is just wrong!
20 years from now on asvolatility will be probably one fraction of it, when adoption and liquidity will make swings based on some Twitter noise close to impossible, sure but it's just far away from it at this point..

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Quote from: Ayers on October 27, 2023, 10:38:27 AM

For me, this is the first time I've seen a traditional company admit and call bitcoin a safe haven and consider it superior to gold. What do you think about this and should we stop calling bitcoin a risky investment?

The economy in most countries is quite unpleasant at the moment and has become very worrying for citizens, many companies and even private business are folding up because their profit has heavily been affected and reduced and they can no longer sustain the high cost of running the business hence the choice to shutdown. Bitcoin provides a way out, an opportunity, a safe haven for people to make investment in something that is not affected by their economy and government.

As things toughen up, many people who never like bitcoin are coming to the realization the importance and relevance bitcoin has.

Charles-Tim

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Bitcoin is a volatile asset, but in short term. If you want to hold bitcoin for a long time and not selling, it is a store of value. Bitcoin price has proven that up to now.

Bitcoin is superior to gold because its total supply is limited and not more than 21 million in total. But gold is still superior because it is the asset with the largest marketcap in the world.

Ayers

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Previously, not only did the world consider bitcoin a highly volatile and high-risk asset, but even those of us who invested in bitcoin considered it a high-risk asset. But I think we should gradually change that concept as well as change the way we call it, bitcoin is no longer a risky asset. Recently AllianceBernstein, an asset manager with $699 billion, called bitcoin a safe haven and even more attractive than gold.

For me, this is the first time I've seen a traditional company admit and call bitcoin a safe haven and consider it superior to gold. What do you think about this and should we stop calling bitcoin a risky investment?
https://blockworks.co/news/alliancebernstein-gold-bitcoin-returns

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