Topic: Bitcoin is a stock (Read 3997 times)

This is really not true. The federal reserve and other central banks do not back their respective currencies. The economy of the country (or economic zone) that issues the currency is what backs the currencies.

When central banks'' profit increases, the value of the underlying currency do not necessarily go up.

And owning dollars is an investment in the company called The Federal Reserve.

Holding euros then you are invested in the European Central Finance Company.

Hold yen and you are thus invested in the CHINA CORP.

Holding bitcoin supports the value of SATOSHI INC.  

Then SATOSHI INC can issue more stocks (at the rate of 3600 a day) and they are currently trading for $600/share.

Thus SATOSHI INC operations expand, and joint ventures are being formed in alternative but related stock options. (which you may swap)

DRK KOINS Inc.
DOGE Inc.
POT Inc.

etc.

Owning bitcoin is like owing dollars, or euros, or yen. It is a currency.

This is a much more accurate description of what bitcoin is then how the OP describes bitcoin.

Owning bitcoin is like owing dollars, or euros, or yen. It is a currency.

What and do all the thinking for you?

OK please give us w bitcoins fundamentals then.   Explain why its valued at $590

And try to break it down as line items w prices.   Not abstractions

Ok Satan, thanks for the advice. So when is a stock not a stock? When it is a cat?

Stocks are not all the same, eventually, they become something that isn't really a stock.

Well at least you are contemplating reality. But the point you are missing is that fundamentals are arbitrary and invented. One company's valuation has nothing to do with another. The Beta for an individual stock is nothing more than consensus mind control. Amazon itself is a perfect example, where profits have been eliminated from its fundamentals as its growth potential and global domination trumps any short term profitability.

In reality, ALL fundamentals are arbitrary and fiction for any stock, as is your effective "ownership." Embrace them at your peril and do so only to help you sleep at night. "Fundamentals" are nothing more than mass justification and sales fodder for putting your hard earned money in ownership of digital fiction.

Bitcoin is a limited ownership in an economic entity that is everyone refuses to label as one thing or another, primarily because of stupidity. So figure out what "Fundamentals" the whales use to drive Bitcoin price, get rich.

Yep. Bitcoin is not some magical bubble machine driven by mass hysteria and panic purchases. It is ownership of an asset whose price is driven by basic things that can be measured. Those basic things are more like a stock's basic things than anything else.

Don't let these guys discourage you and don't let definitions get in the way of sound logic.

I tried explaining to my neighbor earlier today that her cat is a dog.  "Look!", I said, "She's covered in fur, walks on four legs, has four paws, and a tail. Just like my dog! Eureka! Your cat is really a dog!"  She rolled her eyes at me and tried to tell me I was stupid, but you and I know that she's the stupid one.  I'm sure they'll get it some day.   

...
But the main flaws of your argument are in your understanding of how stocks are valued...
Bitcoin is a speculative investment.  People typically buy bitcoin because they expect it to be worth more at t, where t is some time in the future.
Or they invest because they believe that the value of bitcoin is less volatile (or has greater upside) than their traditional currency.

The way you portray the stock market, you assume those are all speculative investments.  Perhaps you've heard the phrase "do your homework" in regards to stocks?
There are methods to estimate the intrinsic value of a stock - the discounted cash flow formula is standard.
You can also use Price to Earnings ratio, PEG, etc. etc. to compare company A to company B (typically within the same sector).
Amazon's price is ~800-900X earnings......so then you would say, "see, it's magic!".  But no, it isn't.
P/E is just one way to understand the price relative to similar entities.  Using the DCF formula, you would find Net Present Value...
for a firm with extremely high growth, and a dominant position (+ high barriers to entry) - like Amazon - the NPV calculation includes more years.
While there is certainly some guesswork involved, leading to differences in estimates and recommendations by analysts, this isn't just pure speculation.
So, intrinsic value calculations will change based on concrete numbers from the quarterly income statements/balance sheets of these companies.
Investors act accordingly and the price changes.  There's also movements based on missing or exceeding consensus estimates, guidance from the firm, etc.

Then there are the obvious differences between bitcoin and stock that have already been mentioned.
You might have a better case comparing some characteristics of penny stocks to bitcoin...
but your fundamental understanding of stock valuation needs some work.

Unless the definition and words that you so vehemently defend is complete BS for 90+% of investors. Keep clinging to your precious "definition" but rest assured the masses own nothing, have no power, and will only receive a return if the consensus of the rest of us buy into the vision that the asset's fundamentals and opportunities will continue to improve.

I know what you are talking about.   Thats why I suggested you look up what a stock is.

You ever seen "The Social Network".  How Zuckerberg diluted his stock to cut out his co founders?

Same company,  same stock.   Regardless if its public or private.

We can debate whether BIDU is worth its current price.  But there's no debating the definition of stock.

I can see some of the similarities that OP bases this conclusion on:

- You buy something that has a value based on what the market has agreed upon.
- Ownership is somewhat ambiguous since you don't gain anything tangible*, like gold (or other physical commodities).
- And you don't have much of a say in the "operations of Bitcoin", or in the operations of the company you buy and hold stock in.
- The price could go up or go down... to the moon or to zero.

One might suggest that you do gain something tangible* - the unique private key for some paired public key that you own.
But the main flaws of your argument are in your understanding of how stocks are valued...
Bitcoin is a speculative investment.  People typically buy bitcoin because they expect it to be worth more at t, where t is some time in the future.
Or they invest because they believe that the value of bitcoin is less volatile (or has greater upside) than their traditional currency.

The way you portray the stock market, you assume those are all speculative investments.  Perhaps you've heard the phrase "do your homework" in regards to stocks?
There are methods to estimate the intrinsic value of a stock - the discounted cash flow formula is standard.
You can also use Price to Earnings ratio, PEG, etc. etc. to compare company A to company B (typically within the same sector).
Amazon's price is ~800-900X earnings......so then you would say, "see, it's magic!".  But no, it isn't.
P/E is just one way to understand the price relative to similar entities.  Using the DCF formula, you would find Net Present Value...
for a firm with extremely high growth, and a dominant position (+ high barriers to entry) - like Amazon - the NPV calculation includes more years.
While there is certainly some guesswork involved, leading to differences in estimates and recommendations by analysts, this isn't just pure speculation.
So, intrinsic value calculations will change based on concrete numbers from the quarterly income statements/balance sheets of these companies.
Investors act accordingly and the price changes.  There's also movements based on missing or exceeding consensus estimates, guidance from the firm, etc.

Then there are the obvious differences between bitcoin and stock that have already been mentioned.
You might have a better case comparing some characteristics of penny stocks to bitcoin...
but your fundamental understanding of stock valuation needs some work.

Well since you owned an LLC, I think i will shut my dumb ass up. Thanks for setting my ass straight.

Oh, btw I haven't changed my position, you sorry ass LLC shares are not what I am talking about. I am talking about BIDU on NASDAQ, that is what I am taling about.

Dude give it a break.   You obviously don't know what a stock is.   I had an LLC and I issued stock to the co-founders and investors.  When the LLC was sold the stock owners had claim on the assets.  Also during the life of the LLC,  we bought out one of the co-founders.   A stock is just equity in a company

Just because some stocks are used for speculation doesn't mean the definition of stock changes.

Bitcoin is more like a commodity.   Like owning bushels of corn or barrels of oil.   This is so basic any high school student should understand

If a share of stock you own say NFLX, BIDU, TSLA pays no dividends, has no material voting rights, will receive no money if the company goes bankrupt, and then you insist on referring to wikipedia to "PROVE" what a stock means, well then you are missing my entire point. We all feel better about what is written in a wikipedia article, however, that doesn't mean your stocks mean anything.

In practice, a share or stock means nothing, you own a piece of fiction, a piece of a limited asset backed by NOTHING other than our collective delusion.

Bitcoins and stocks are digital measures of value where the market agrees every day on their worth.

Oh and if you own enough stocks, then maybe you have enough voting power to control the organization and make the changes you need to make your stocks worth more. Hmmm, Same can be said for Bitcoins.

How are bitcoins a commodity?  Are all currencies a commodity?

it may be more accurate than OP's statement, but it's not the full story. it's like owning a currency and commodity (investment) rolled into one. there needs to be a new word for it, because that goes over most peoples' heads.

This is a much more accurate description of what bitcoin is then how the OP describes bitcoin.

Owning bitcoin is like owing dollars, or euros, or yen. It is a currency.