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Topic: Bitcoin is getting destroyed - page 2. (Read 3212 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
May 25, 2017, 03:57:39 AM
#53
Same with DASH. People criticize DASH because of the masternode centralization. Well then what you call the Lightnight Network HUB transactions?

No.  DASH's principal critique comes not from the existence of master nodes, but rather from the scammy start of it, which lets one estimate that the original devs may just as well possess half of them, if they didn't spend their coins on girls and coke.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
May 25, 2017, 03:55:25 AM
#52
Is it true? i dont think so Because given the increasingly rapid development of bitcoin and peoples increasingly need it.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
May 25, 2017, 03:54:10 AM
#51

wait.. will you be saying that when LN starts pushing people into multisig permissioned hubs/hops... which is the only 'gesture' benefit left that segwit is suppose to solve

I used to make fun of ETH and ETC. But it looks like even after the DAO and the ETC split disasters, ETH is much more reasonable than BTC now.

It has a similar market cap that BTC had 1 year ago, so ETH is only 1 year behind in progress, and if BTC doesn't pull together itself,  ETH might surpass BTC.

Same with DASH. People criticize DASH because of the masternode centralization. Well then what you call the Lightnight Network HUB transactions?

look even deeper at the Tier network being created.. top of the pyramid.. bitcoins DNS seeds, oh look majority blockstream maintained.. next down the list FIBRE network. ... then there is the core upstream filter nodes..
then the cludge of filtered downstream, no witness, non sanctioned, prunned, lite nodes.. then the next layer LN

then look when they start tweaking the DNS to not include certain versions(segwit activation) in the dns listing.. it all becomes super centralised.

This is exactly what i see coming as well and its in the making behind closed doors and meetings for invited ones and no minutes and action points published after.

Bit I still believe in the disruptive forces  sourcing this special community here, that is exactly split already i.o. To conquer,. Hard task but not hopeless!

Go on , keep it up.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
May 25, 2017, 03:52:31 AM
#50
and no ether is not capable of taking care of these problems, it has even worse scaling issue than bitcoin has. the transactions fees of ether has already grown 10 times and it doesn't even have enough users to send transactions. and it will only get worse. and this is also true about majority of altcoins. they all seem good now because nobody uses them and their networks are empty of users but when they get a little bit more usage they all face the real problems.

You shouldn't confuse the "size of the block chain" with "the scaling issue in bitcoin".   The scaling issue in bitcoin finds its origin in a belief that the size of the block chain should be relatively small, not in a genuine technical problem that a big block chain causes.  Bitcoin has a scaling problem because one wants to keep the block chain small, because there's a dogma that it should be small.    What is causing a problem in bitcoin right now is not the size of the block chain, but the LIMIT that one has set on that size (because, one believes that one would run into problems if one didn't, but for the moment, the remedy seems far worse than the imagined illness that never showed up).

Other crypto currencies don't adhere to that belief, and hence are not going to face a "similar" scaling problem.  If the belief in the potential problems of large block chains is justified, these crypto currencies will maybe run into these problems.  But if that belief is not justified and I fully think it isn't, then bitcoin is just hurting itself over a dogma with a problem it has created out of thin air, which other crypto currencies will simply not face.

So, yes, other crypto currencies make larger block sizes for a given number of transactions (Monero for instance, with its ring signatures).   But as it is absolutely not indicated that big block chains are a problem, as they don't have put, in the name of that belief, a hard limit on its size, they won't face the scaling issue of bitcoin.

full member
Activity: 172
Merit: 100
May 25, 2017, 03:48:13 AM
#49
Lol bro bitcoin died about 100 or 200 times I am not sure for that but it is still alive and everything wil be fixed just to save bitcoin because we need him because it is really much better than fiat and so much popular.
I would not call the drop of the price as death. Bitcoin has it's ups and downs and this is normally to us already. Now we are really close to 3000$ price, but a new drop will not be a surprise to me. My strategy is HODL, I am waiting for 5000$.

A new drop should not be a surprise, but an opportunity to buy as many coins at a cheap price in order to earn more money later.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 25, 2017, 03:45:41 AM
#48
Why? How?
Due to both mining and node centralization.

Is segwit outside of bitcoins blockchain?
It is not.

Okay okay, so hide your bad arguments inside a haystack full of insults and character attacks.
I am not hiding anything, and neither are my arguments bad. You're an uneducated baboon. At least you aren't directly shilling for the BU trash.

Can you explain this, because it doesn't make sense to me. How the hell will Bitcoin centralize if you add more people to it? That is the dictionary definition of decentralization. More users = more decentralized.
See, you claim my arguments are bad but you don't even know what decentralization is. Does the high user count of Visa == more decentralized? Roll Eyes The number of users is completely irrelevent, we are talking about mining and node centralization which are already a problem to some degree today.

You must be living in an upside world.
No. Right now, without realizing it, you're acting exactly equal to the anti-vaccination people.

So above you said that you can't add more people to Bitcoin, and here you say that you can't have more users creating their own altcoins.
Private currencies are useless.

So basically you are saying that only we (a few million users) can use cryptocurrencies, and the rest of the world should stick to fiat? Because that is what I am understanding from your point.
No. I have told you how Bitcoin is supposed to scale, at least in the medium-term whilst something better is found.

If you have more people running more nodes in Bitcoin, then it doesnt become centralized.
There is nothing that implies more users will be running more nodes.

Similarily if you have more people creating their own coins (which is more nodes in general for their own coins), is more decentralization.
No. Centralized, private blockchains, are not part of any form of decentralization.

Not only it's competition inside the altcoin space (may the best one win), but it's also more decentralized as everyone can work on his own project and doesnt have to rely on a centralized developer team to make the code for them.
There is no such thing.

Or is your idea to basically just have a centralized development team with a centralized mining system, with diminishing node count? Well that is Bitcoin currently.
Wrong. Development is decentralized, the node count has been steadily growing and the mining, albeit still centralized, is much less centralized that it was in the past.

Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?
That statement is complete nonsense and has nothing to do with reality. Classic FUD.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 501
May 25, 2017, 03:44:43 AM
#47
Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?

OP is mostly spreading FUD about bitcoin and the current situation, otherwise i doubt that anybody is left in bitcoin community that is unaware of the problems that bitcoin is currently facing with the big backlong and rising fees.

and no ether is not capable of taking care of these problems, it has even worse scaling issue than bitcoin has. the transactions fees of ether has already grown 10 times and it doesn't even have enough users to send transactions. and it will only get worse. and this is also true about majority of altcoins. they all seem good now because nobody uses them and their networks are empty of users but when they get a little bit more usage they all face the real problems.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
May 25, 2017, 03:42:59 AM
#46
Lol bro bitcoin died about 100 or 200 times I am not sure for that but it is still alive and everything wil be fixed just to save bitcoin because we need him because it is really much better than fiat and so much popular.
I would not call the drop of the price as death. Bitcoin has it's ups and downs and this is normally to us already. Now we are really close to 3000$ price, but a new drop will not be a surprise to me. My strategy is HODL, I am waiting for 5000$.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
May 25, 2017, 03:39:30 AM
#45
I was a Bitcoin purist, thinking that Bitcoin has to be what it was coded for, this meant no hardforks. Yet I have realized that this is a very closed-minded position, and very dogmatic.



Yes Bitcoin doesnt need a million nodes, a couple thousand nodes are probably well enough for all humanity.

There are less clearinghouse banks in the world, so why do you need so many nodes.

You don't even need "thousand nodes".  As I pointed out, even one node is sufficient, as long as that node doesn't deny you access, because a node doesn't need to be trusted: it cannot serve fake data.  Given that mining pools need a node, which is also the source from which all other nodes can only copy (or refuse to copy and stop), in fact, the nodes of miner pools are sufficient for bitcoin's security.

You don't need many e-mail servers serving you the same e-mail with a signature for the security of the signed message.  If I send you a signed e-mail with my secret key of which you know the public key, and you KNOW that I sent you a message, then you only need one single e-mail server to get my message from.  No matter how much the single owner of that server can tamper with everything on it, you don't have to trust him: if you can download an e-mail with my signature, you know it is the right e-mail, it is not forged, and there is no other one.

This is why the whole debate of "my god, if ever we increase the block size, Joe will not be willing to buy a 3TB disk for his full node in his basement and bitcoin is centralized" is totally, totally ridiculous.  It is so ridiculous, and propagated by such knowledgeable people, that this is covering up an agenda.  First of all, because Joe will mostly be able to afford such a disk as you pointed out ; but second, because whether Joe is having his node in his basement or not, doesn't change zilch to the security or power model of bitcoin.

If you do technology based upon false assumptions or starting points, you will end up making a system that doesn't work well.   If people keep insisting on the false relationship between bitcoin's decentralization and the number of Joe's that have small computers running nodes in their basement, one is going to make decisions that are ill-fated.

Of course, the goldbugonomics of bitcoin reduces the block reward, and hence the financing of the (silly) cryptographic security of the ledger as time goes by, so somehow, transactions need to become scarce and expensive to take over from debasement.  This can be a good argument to introduce scarcity of transactions (killing the "fluid currency" concept if it wasn't yet dead by goldbugonomics).  My idea is that this argument is also used to force users off the block chain onto the LN.  Not for real, of course, because that will most probably never work for real, unless operated by "banking hubs", killing the last bit of "freedom money" that remained.

If bitcoin however, evolves towards what goldbugonomics drives it, namely, a speculative asset in a greater-fool pyramid game, then most probably, bitcoin doesn't need a very high transaction capacity (apart from the last day, when the final crash comes, but people cannot transact fast enough to sell their coins).  But 1 MB is too small.

BTW, I'm not against hard forks.  I think hard forking is natural, and in as much as two prongs emerge, that's good too.
Hard forks are great in that they don't need any "majority consensus" which is, by definition, impossible to obtain in a truly decentralized system.

Anybody can propose a hard fork, and if people take it on, then a new coin is born.  That's good.

member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
May 25, 2017, 03:37:55 AM
#44
I never pay more than a few $ in transaction fees don't see how you can get it to 30$, but regardless its still high and needs to be reduced if its to scale up.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 544
May 25, 2017, 03:35:54 AM
#43
Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?

All bitcoin holders are hopeful of the upcoming UASF meeting that will decide the consensus towards increasing the blocksize as well as what will be the standard code for miners to use. With this we are hopeful that the miners fee will decrease since the blocksize will be increased to 2mb. Everything will be clear after August and hoping that the consensus as well as the segwit activation will open the way for a lower fee and fast transactions.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1009
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
May 25, 2017, 03:17:44 AM
#42
Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?

Try moving coins from a used address with a long history (I get that you should not reuse an address, but most of the time it's just not feasible).

Fees can get as high as 50$ in peak hours. Just for a new transaction from a new address ,you already pay 5$ fees.

God forbid you try to create a transaction with multiple inputs and outputs, I can't even imagine how much fee you would pay for that.


I was a Bitcoin purist, thinking that Bitcoin has to be what it was coded for, this meant no hardforks. Yet I have realized that this is a very closed-minded position, and very dogmatic.



Yes Bitcoin doesnt need a million nodes, a couple thousand nodes are probably well enough for all humanity.

There are less clearinghouse banks in the world, so why do you need so many nodes.


It should be setup as the DASH system, with multiple tiered node systems, each doing a different layer of verification.

Node pruning does this, which is great. But we also need block increase as well.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 520
May 24, 2017, 11:41:37 PM
#41
Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?
He's referencing a future where there may be $30 fees because the fees for the blockchain keep increasing, making Bitcoin a really elite-esque crypto and out of the average man's hands. And buying from an exchange is not a transaction fee ffs. This isn't hard to understand.
Ethereum takes care of them in one way and trades them for another problem.
I see your activity and I hope this is satire because this should be something you understand.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
May 24, 2017, 11:41:21 PM
#40
You know I've been here for 3-4 years now, and I have seen Bitcoin rollercoaster from 700$ down to 100$ and now back up to 2000$. A very interesting rollercoaster indeed.

I was a Bitcoin purist, thinking that Bitcoin has to be what it was coded for, this meant no hardforks. Yet I have realized that this is a very closed-minded position, and very dogmatic.

It seems like everybody here is dogmatic about this, you think you are very smart and you know things better, it's just pure arrogance. And when anybody has a dissenting view, they get marginalized or maybe even banned.

I had an ignore list of 50+ people who were shouting very hardly that Bitcoin's current path is unsustainable. And instead of hearing their opinions, I just ignored them, because that is how an intelligent open minded person behaves.

I fully agree with the silly dogmatism that reigns in bitcoin land.   I have to say I came late to bitcoin ; in mid 2014.  I had heard of it before, but I thought it was something like the failed e-cash system I was very close to about 10 years earlier.  Back then I was enthusiastic, I saw it fail, and I realized that "freedom money" was not going to be possible.  I didn't immediately grasp the decentralized aspect of bitcoin.  I was mesmerized.  THIS was finally "freedom money" !

In the mean time, I saw it evolve from a system where one could, indeed, transact value in a "permissionless" way, into a speculative gambler's feast.  In the beginning, I thought it was great it was taking up value.  Then it started to annoy me that people seemed to focus on speculation more than on usage.  After all, "freedom money" is not to speculate or to get rich with because you happen NOT to be a person occupied doing valuable things, but because you happen to gamble some money at the right time in the beginning and just sit on your ass, right ?  That's exactly the sort of financial game that is making our banking system sick, so this should NOT be the essence of "freedom money", right ?  So when was the speculative bubble of bitcoin going to crash, finally, and start following "Fisher's formula" which is the true value of a currency used to buy stuff with ? After the 2013 crash, I thought that bitcoin was going to "de-bubble" and that people had been burned enough not to start over.  Bitcoin's price was happily going down, and my idea was that it was going to arrive at a few tens of $, its "Fisher price" rough estimation.

But no, speculation took of again, with the "halving", etc....  I didn't understand it.  Where was this sick speculation coming from ?   So I set out finding out why.  I now realize that it was made that way. "gold bug economics" but with huge initial seigniorage, can be nothing else but speculation.  The more I studied the game-theoretical aspects of bitcoin, the more I realized: this thing is broken beyond repair as a currency.  About everything in it is set up for it to fail as a normal day-to-day currency.   However, bitcoin is not dead, and will not die.  But it is something else.  It is not gold either.  Gold has had the bulk of its seigniorage hundreds or thousands of years ago.  Gold, economically speaking, "existed for ever".  It had its "price rise" so long ago, that no economic effect is felt today.  You can *reasonably" speculate on gold, like you can speculate on anything, but you won't do factors of 1000.    So what is bitcoin then ?  It is simply a huge greater-fool system.  No more and no less.  And what's driving it ?   A delusional story, of "the new money for the 21st century", what it is exactly designed not to become.  It is brilliantly designed as one of the better greater-fool traps in history.  

This is one of the greatest dogma's in bitcoin, that it should sustain "all payments of the world" one day.  It is not going to, but if you point out that its economic design is everything but that, and is nothing else but one of the biggest pyramid games in history, you hit a dogma.  I'm sorry that it is that.  I would have preferred "freedom money".  But it isn't.  Its price in the market is not set by the demand for bitcoin in order to buy stuff with.  Its price in the market is set by the demand of speculators that want to leave it to greater fools, making a benefit on it.  That's the definition of a pyramid game. If you mainly want an asset for the sole reason of selling it for a higher price to someone else later, and if this demand is what sets its price, and there's no "sound fundamental" backing it up, then this IS a pyramid game.

The other dogma is a cryptographic idiocy, namely that bitcoin's decentralization is depending on how many copies of the sole ledger are around, which brings us to the block size.  A payment system in which the ledger has to be integrally copied by all/most users, is a system of which the burden *per user* increases linearly with the size of the network.  Such a thing always crumbles under its own weight.    The more users the network has, the higher the burden *per user*.  This is crazy. It means that the total burden of a network goes QUADRATICALLY with the network size.  No reasonable system does so.

But on top of that, it is cryptographically not necessary.  If there's one block chain cryptographically available (no other one is actively being made), then *a few independent copies* are sufficient.  Not every user needs such an integral copy.  It doesn't help him in anything.  There is cryptographically no way to "fake" block chains, because the PoW can be checked by just the header list, and in any case there's no possibility to fake it without delivering the PoW, so without genuine mining. The only thing that must be decentralized as a check, is the *header list*.  You cannot fake it.  Once you have the header list, there's no way in which one can sell you "fake blocks", because their "signature", their Merkle tree hash, is in the (verified) header list.
So whether these blocks are 1 MB, 10 MB, or 50 GB each, doesn't really matter, they cannot be faked if the header list is right.  Nobody can sell you a fake block.  You don't need them all.  You only need those of the transactions you are concerned with, to verify that you obtained a transaction, or that you sent a transaction. (*)

If there are, say, 20 full nodes in the world, serving these data, that's largely sufficient, because no-one can fake the data, and there is no other data "in competition" available.  Satoshi already explained that, his logic is correct, but is conveniently ignored.

In *such* a case, a block chain system is NOT having a burden that goes quadratically with its users, but essentially linear/logarithmic, and COULD hence perfectly sustain growth without the slightest problem.  A few full nodes being the "world servers" of the single block chain is good enough, because that chain cannot be faked.  You cannot receive "erroneous data" from such a server, because you can check it against the header list that you DO maintain.

So all this "block size debate" is based upon a totally erroneous/bogus argument, namely the "need for this data to be copied a number of times, proportional to the number of users", which kills its growth.  It is another dogma, but this time, invented afterwards.

So, if bitcoin didn't have an economic design that induces pure speculation, it could have become a freedom currency, but its speculative behaviour transforms it in one of the better pyramid games of history ; and if that silly dogma of "everyone needs a full copy" wasn't maintained, it could technically sustain network growth without a problem.

Bitcoin has OTHER fundamental errors in its design, like using PoW for coin creation AND consensus, which industrializes and centralizes the decision-making process in bitcoin.

This is why I think bitcoin was a good idea, but is so badly designed, that essentially it KILLED the notion of freedom money it was supposed to become.

(*) edit:  it is important to realize that even if there are only 20 nodes out there, you don't need to TRUST them.  They cannot give you a fake block.  The only blocks that you can get from them, are true blocks, because these are the only ones that comply with their Merkle hash to the header list you received.  This is somewhat similar to the fact that you don't have to trust your e-mail server when you receive a cryptographically signed message.  If the signature verifies, then your e-mail server gave you the right copy of that message, he cannot give you a false one.  If you *know* that your e-mail server received exactly one such message (if you KNOW that you want block 480721), then the only thing that e-mail server can do, is to send you the right message, or refuse to send you a message.  This is why one node would in fact be sufficient, apart from the fact that that one node could decide to deny you access.  This is why some copies around are needed.  But cryptographically, from the moment you know that you can get a copy of a specific block, you do not need to trust the entity that gives you that block.  They cannot fake it.

You don't even need a full block, but just the "Merkle path" to the transaction that you need.  It cannot be faked either.

sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 253
May 24, 2017, 11:37:16 PM
#39
Well this is interesting 30$ transaction fees? I don't follow, if I buy from coinbase, it doesn't cost 30+ what I"m purchasing, why? Also does ether take care of these problems?
hero member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 534
May 24, 2017, 11:31:13 PM
#38
I agree that increasing transaction fees and higher confirmation time would be a critical issue in the future and we must find a practical solution for it for to sustain in the long term and that would be important from the growth perspective. People would prefer bitcoin as far as it is better than traditional fiat transfer infrastructure in terms of cost, time and usability and we still have some time to find a concrete solution.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
May 24, 2017, 10:55:51 PM
#37
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
May 24, 2017, 10:50:26 PM
#36
im laughing at lauda's "free market"

does lauda understand the math of average tx fee... vs reactive tx fee..

the average tx fee mechanism does not drop the fee down to 0 when there is no demand.

imagine for 10 blocks people pay 0.0001.. then a spammer puts in a load of tx's that cause that SINGLE block to be 0.001
now before even caring about what the demand is.. lets say block 12 demand was 0.. the average is already at 0.00019 not 0.00010 or less
so even with no demand peoples estimate tx fee average is suggesting people pay 0.00019 or more!!.. even without caring about demand

if anyone is over 8 years old and has more than a 3 second attention span can easily use excel to do some basic maths and realise the price
does not naturally drop in low demand anymore..

0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000  
0.00010000  
0.00100000
0.00019000
0.00019900
0.00020890
0.00021979
0.00023177
0.00024495
0.00025944
0.00027538
0.00029292
0.00031222
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
May 24, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
#35
Bitcoin price has increased along with major inflow of investment as well increased users compared to the past. Not only bitcoin everything grows in the similar way, for the same we cannot say that bitcoin is under destruction or getting destroyed.

In a Free Market profit goes up while operating costs go down.

But apperently Lauda doesn't know how a free market works:


Are you mentally incapacitated? I explicitly said: "If people want to pay $100 per TX, they will. ".


In his version of a free market, profit goes down while transaction fees go up. Totally reversed world  Cheesy

Don't waste your time w Lauda.  he/she's the biggest troll on this forum.   A shameless blockstream butt licker.

hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1009
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
May 24, 2017, 10:28:34 PM
#34
Bitcoin price has increased along with major inflow of investment as well increased users compared to the past. Not only bitcoin everything grows in the similar way, for the same we cannot say that bitcoin is under destruction or getting destroyed.

In a Free Market profit goes up while operating costs go down.

But apperently Lauda doesn't know how a free market works:


Are you mentally incapacitated? I explicitly said: "If people want to pay $100 per TX, they will. ".


In his version of a free market, profit goes down while transaction fees go up. Totally reversed world  Cheesy
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