Topic: Bitcoin is NOT a currency debate! - page 5. (Read 6199 times)
If he sells a pair of jeans for 1 bitcoin and when the customers ask for a refund due to product dissatisfaction, the customer will get back 1 bitcoin. Simple as that. How complicated could that be? the problem that arises here is the bitcoin to dollar mentality which has been engraved in our mind that whatever tangible item value has to be measured against fiat currency. If it is priced in btc then by all means it is measured in btc. You don't hear people paying for a pair of jeans in euro and when the dollar equivalent value goes up, he will ask for extra refund.
I have touch upon this in my first post. If it is a tech and not a currency why are we talking so much about regulation? Compare bitcoin to Visa. Visa is not a regulated business. Why should bitcoin be?
I would argue that Visa is a regulated business. The credit card industry is heavily regulated and does a lot of compliance. As far as currency, I can understand why it is a topic of hot debate because it has characteristics that allow for different arguments but I view BTC as a currency. After all, we call them cryptocurrencies.
I have seen in many portals, websites that bitcoin is named as a cryptocurrency.
But i have read also somewhere as a digital currency.
So it is just a currency
But i have read also somewhere as a digital currency.
So it is just a currency
OP is right. Bitcoin is not a currency.
It is an online community with a communication mechanism (=the BTC software) that replaces some of the properties of a currency.
Fundamentally, because of it's "volatility", a BTC token does not cover the important function of a unit of account.
This is because its price / value depends only from the valuation the community members give its tokens. If the community feels the BTC token is overvalued, they may sell and BTC price may fall.
This wouldn't be a problem in a mostly "egalitarian" and "rational" community. But 1) not every community member has the same "voting power", as large speculators still dominate the market and can manipulate the price. 2) New bitcoin holders operate often in a pretty irrational manner, "buying high selling low".
Maybe in the future the unit of account function can be covered by BTC, maybe not.
It is an online community with a communication mechanism (=the BTC software) that replaces some of the properties of a currency.
Fundamentally, because of it's "volatility", a BTC token does not cover the important function of a unit of account.
This is because its price / value depends only from the valuation the community members give its tokens. If the community feels the BTC token is overvalued, they may sell and BTC price may fall.
This wouldn't be a problem in a mostly "egalitarian" and "rational" community. But 1) not every community member has the same "voting power", as large speculators still dominate the market and can manipulate the price. 2) New bitcoin holders operate often in a pretty irrational manner, "buying high selling low".
Maybe in the future the unit of account function can be covered by BTC, maybe not.
All good gents!!! But you are confused. If you call tomatoes apples it won't make them apples.
Bitcoin is not a legal tender which is the primary function of currency or funds. As defined by Royal Mint:
Bitcoin is not a legal tender which is the primary function of currency or funds. As defined by Royal Mint:
"As defined"
So you're saying tomatoes are apples because they're defined as apples.
"Legal tender" is just what the government calls it. It has nothing to do with the inherent properties of the medium of exchange.
Another government's currency is not legal tender in the United States, but it is still currency. Just as U.S. Dollars are not legal tender in other countries. Unless they call them apples, like in Ecuador, which now uses U.S. Dollars as their legal tender. And they banned Bitcoin, which doesn't stop it from being a currency.
Bitcoin is NOT a currency!
In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?
If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!
What do you think?
In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?
If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!
What do you think?
Man is it that hard to understand? He would get the same value back. ALL currencies fluctuate, the thing is Bitcoin does it a ton more since it's new.
If you bought those jeans in gold, and gold fluctuated, it would be the same thing.
A currency is a currency if it's accepted for exchange of goods and services, that's all, the rest is mental masturbation.
Well, that depends on in what currency the merchant denominated that jeans. If that was $250 but as an alternative payment method he/she accepted 1 BTC (at the then current $250 exchange rate) then he should refund $250 worth BTC. If he sold that Jeans for 1 BTC what was worth $250 in that time then he/she should give back 1 BTC even if it went up to $300 in the meantime.
Agreed.
Bitcoin is NOT a currency!
In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?
If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!
What do you think?
In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?
If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!
What do you think?
Well, that depends on in what currency the merchant denominated that jeans. If that was $250 but as an alternative payment method he/she accepted 1 BTC (at the then current $250 exchange rate) then he should refund $250 worth BTC. If he sold that Jeans for 1 BTC what was worth $250 in that time then he/she should give back 1 BTC even if it went up to $300 in the meantime.
Let me ask you this... If say 10 countries/governments in the world, accept it as a legal tender, would you define it as a currency?
If one country accepts bitcoin as a legal tender it would be halfway to becoming currency. But I do not believe it will happen. As to the reason, same as Visa or MasterCard would not have either word bitcoin or it's logo on a card. It's a branding issue. Card schemes do not understand who or what is behind bitcoin so for them to put their cherished brand next to something they have no idea about is impossible. I would say it's the same with countries. Most likely they will develop their own digital currencies. I know Bank of England has 3 man team looking into this and I'm sure others do the same. However, bitcoin can be seen as settlement mechanism between other government backed digital currencies. Time will show. But I'm having difficulty accepting bitcoin as a vanila currency in conventional terms.
Bitcoin is NOT a currency!
What do you think?
I have to say Bitcoin is NOT ONLY a currency! It's more as a platform. But it still a currency What do you think?
You need to learn to quote properly. You don't need to double post with massive walls of quotes each time but I've already substantiated it, but you haven't other than posting your incorrect opinion constantly so you need to substantiate yours or provide something more than hasn't been disproved time and time again. You're not going to change any ones opinion here but you can keep parroting it like it means something.
Thanks for the opportunity
Could you guarantee me that? Show me this guarantee. I'm not saying gold can't be used as currency, for instance gold coins, but most people won't accept gold coins or bits of gold for things, but you can't make your piece of gold divisible to pay for a packet of cigarettes nor could you get your change back in gold. In fact, I'd say it far easier and quicker to buy cigs for bitcoins than it is gold, so regardless of you saying bitcoin isn't a currency over and over that's just your opinion, and one where you're wrong.
You are confusing convenience with a definition of currency. Gold and later gold standard has been used for thousands of years as currency. As it is less divisible, yes, I agree it is not as convenient as for example bitcoin to make a small payment. But you argue that if it is convenient, divisible and more or less accepted unit of exchange than it is currency. In that case do you consider WebMoney as currency?
Oh, look, the troll has an alt account. So cigarettes are currency now but bitcoin isn't? Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, though maybe in your head it does.
One in constructing an argument based on logical conclusions can chase the opponent's argument into absurd. You argued that if acceptance is one of the key characteristics of currency than cigarettes are wider accepted than bitcoin hence siggies are currency.
But currency is a lot more than a divisible, medium of exchange in order for it to be currency it has to be a legal tender and that was argued previously. You can call smonting currency but it does not make it currency in legal sense.
In my opinion bitcoin is closer to a unique token but if this token will be backed by gold will it be currency then? Or what needs to happen for it be recognized as currency. In the same what what needs to have happen for digitised gold or other conventional assets to be recognized as a digital asset?
Are you asking, if a currency is defined as a currency, if it's backed by gold? Because none of the 600+ currencies in the world would fit that definition, if THAT was true.
The currency debate will go on and on.. if your definition of a currency is only linked to it's "legal" status from a government point of view.
Let me ask you this... If say 10 countries/governments in the world, accept it as a legal tender, would you define it as a currency?
My definition and the Wiki definition of a currency differ in the sense that I accept a commodity as a currency, when it's widely accepted as a medium to exchange value.
{ a system of money in general use in a particular country. }
The Wiki version is based on fiat :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency
You need to learn to quote properly. You don't need to double post with massive walls of quotes each time but I've already substantiated it, but you haven't other than posting your incorrect opinion constantly so you need to substantiate yours or provide something more than hasn't been disproved time and time again. You're not going to change any ones opinion here but you can keep parroting it like it means something.
Thanks for the opportunity
Could you guarantee me that? Show me this guarantee. I'm not saying gold can't be used as currency, for instance gold coins, but most people won't accept gold coins or bits of gold for things, but you can't make your piece of gold divisible to pay for a packet of cigarettes nor could you get your change back in gold. In fact, I'd say it far easier and quicker to buy cigs for bitcoins than it is gold, so regardless of you saying bitcoin isn't a currency over and over that's just your opinion, and one where you're wrong.
You are confusing convenience with a definition of currency. Gold and later gold standard has been used for thousands of years as currency. As it is less divisible, yes, I agree it is not as convenient as for example bitcoin to make a small payment. But you argue that if it is convenient, divisible and more or less accepted unit of exchange than it is currency. In that case do you consider WebMoney as currency?
Oh, look, the troll has an alt account. So cigarettes are currency now but bitcoin isn't? Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, though maybe in your head it does.
One in constructing an argument based on logical conclusions can chase the opponent's argument into absurd. You argued that if acceptance is one of the key characteristics of currency than cigarettes are wider accepted than bitcoin hence siggies are currency.
But currency is a lot more than a divisible, medium of exchange in order for it to be currency it has to be a legal tender and that was argued previously. You can call smonting currency but it does not make it currency in legal sense.
In my opinion bitcoin is closer to a unique token but if this token will be backed by gold will it be currency then? Or what needs to happen for it be recognized as currency. In the same what what needs to have happen for digitised gold or other conventional assets to be recognized as a digital asset?
An it has nothing to do with trolling. It's a debate. Substantiate your argument and join in.
You need to learn to quote properly. You don't need to double post with massive walls of quotes each time but I've already substantiated it, but you haven't other than posting your incorrect opinion constantly so you need to substantiate yours or provide something more than hasn't been disproved time and time again. You're not going to change any ones opinion here but you can keep parroting it like it means something.
I could guarantee you that you would find more people how would accept a piece of gold before they would accept a bitcoin. Following your logic, gold is currency...
Could you guarantee me that? Show me this guarantee. I'm not saying gold can't be used as currency, for instance gold coins, but most people won't accept gold coins or bits of gold for things, but you can't make your piece of gold divisible to pay for a packet of cigarettes nor could you get your change back in gold. In fact, I'd say it far easier and quicker to buy cigs for bitcoins than it is gold, so regardless of you saying bitcoin isn't a currency over and over that's just your opinion, and one where you're wrong.
And a lot more people would accept smoke since this is the most used "currency" in jails around the world.
Thanks for the argument
So, until bitcoin reaches the same level of acceptance it's NOT a currency Oh, look, the troll has an alt account. So cigarettes are currency now but bitcoin isn't? Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, though maybe in your head it does.
Bitcoin is still not a currency. Not yet. It doesn't have the market cap, global adoption to back it up. The result is too much volatility. But we don't need to go to far with our thoughts. We just simply need to use bitcoin as an alternative payment system and let it sort out it's space in the world economy in time. Someday it will be the most influential currency world has ever see.
From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.
To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinс value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.
If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.
Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat? Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.
I could guarantee you that you would find more people how would accept a piece of gold before they would accept a bitcoin. Following your logic, gold is currency...
And a lot more people would accept smoke since this is the most used "currency" in jails around the world.
Thanks for the argument
So, until bitcoin reaches the same level of acceptance it's NOT a currency From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.
To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinс value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.
If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.
Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat? Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.
I could guarantee you that you would find more people how would accept a piece of gold before they would accept a bitcoin. Following your logic, gold is currency...
And a lot more people would accept smoke since this is the most used "currency" in jails around the world.
From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.
To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinс value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.
If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.
Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat? Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.
An it has nothing to do with trolling. It's a debate. Substantiate your argument and join in.
From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.
To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinс value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.
If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.
Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat? Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.
I could guarantee you that you would find more people how would accept a piece of gold before they would accept a bitcoin. Following your logic, gold is currency...
From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.
To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinс value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.
If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.
Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat? Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.
From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.
Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?
In my opinion, the only thing
We are in the right direction with hardware wallets and cards.
Once those become easier to use by anyone, then mass adoption will slowly take place.
And yes, it will be seen as and called a currency (by the mass) then.
I agree with you 100% bitcoin is not easy to use. But when it will become easy to use you would not know that you are using bitcoin. In one aspect it is destined to become sophisticated payment rails like MasterCard of Visa but hopefully cheaper.
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