Bitcoin is urgent. Argentina is printing free money too

South Park

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on May 05, 2019, 08:04:58 AM

Quote from: muslol67 on April 21, 2019, 05:25:54 AM

If USA wants it, it can create millions of dollars with a very simple decision to make money.

You're off by several orders of magnitude, I think. The amount of "free money" that gets created is staggering, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight--or a solution. The effects of quantitative easing combined with low interest rates have been great in the short term--the stock market certainly isn't complaining--but these economic crutches are going to break eventually.

Why wouldn't Argentina (or any other country for that matter) want to get in on the game? They see what the US has done and what results they've gotten. The problem is that the day of reckoning may well be something that their grand- or great-grandchildren are going to have to deal with. That isn't fair to future generations, but that isn't something politicians seem to care about.

You are right but the United States can get away with it because the dollar is the unofficial currency of the world, so other countries have no other option but to accept it or avoid the dollar but that will create issues with other countries that accept the dollar, also quantitative easing was nothing more but an attempt by the United States to weaken its own currency to try to boost their exports and other countries had no option but to weaken their currency as well so they could protect their economy.

BitHodler

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Quote from: goldreset on May 05, 2019, 11:11:49 PM

when a currency is being floated too much into the market, it lose value easily

Too bad the mass doesn't respond to fiat printing until it's too late to act. Investors are familiar with how the current financial system works and consistently outperform the rate of inflation. These people don't suffer.

I am glad that Bitcoin lowered the bar for the average joes because they get more interested in economics too. I got more interested in economics purely because of Bitcoin, otherwise I wouldn't do much better than the average person.

Bitcoin isn't only an anti inflation asset, but also a currency at the same time. You can spend your coins to benefit from the increase in purchasing power throughout the years. What other asset allows you to do that?

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Quote from: Bitinity on April 21, 2019, 01:50:52 PM

Quote from: Shenzou on April 21, 2019, 10:40:51 AM

It is crazy how government just manipulate the currency as they want, but does not this lead to their currency going down since they are printing it out, but obviously this is one of the cases where we knew about it, but for sure they have been doing it for years under the table the same as the other countries where money is being printed and put to banks, if this keeps going it will lead to a finical crisis, the same as the case of zimbabwae where they have a currency of 1 trillion dollar worth only 0.4 actual us dollar.

It is surprising news for me, as I cant believe that a government do this kind of thing. Do they even think what are the bad effects of printing more money? I do believe if it is happening in my country then there will be non stop demonstration against the government's decision.

It's happening on a daily basis in the world's largest economies and soon it'll happen in non-reserve currency nations as well (see links about Argentina posted by colleagues above).

Japan came up with this idea in 2002, they called it quantitative easing (QE).

Here's the trick: if you print money and give it to the people, it generates inflation. Money becomes "cheap" and easy.

But if you print money for banks only and never let it reach the population, banks make sure the money's used to pump the stock markets while The People must work 9-5 to pay their bills.

Essentially we're living in a system where banks command everything, they print money for themselves. 99% of the people worldwide exist solely to keep the banks running.

uray

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Quote from: jjjfff on April 21, 2019, 05:04:08 AM

Why does the US get to print money to save their banks? Why does China pump their stock market by printing more money whenever the stocks dip?
This may be the beginning of the new crash: every country out there decides they want to do quantitative easing too.
US banks got bailed out, why can't governments get bailed out?
See where this is going?

First and foremost the government does not have the authority to print money, it is controlled by the central banks and they decide on what to do and hope you understood why the banks got bailed while the government debts are still accumulating, these things are not transparent and that will lead to another financial meltdown in the future because of inflation and i am not sure what are the steps they are taking to counter that .

DigitalCyberius

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The wonders of the so-called "Federal Reserve", as well as the legacy of fiat currencies (especially paper). Paper fiat allows for a huge economic boom at first, but it eventually loses value from overprinting, and eventually collapses. Even in Rome, with metal coins, they got into the habit of devaluing the money supply over time. Mike Maloney from goldsilver.com has an excellent series on that called The History of Money (I think), on Youtube. The Federal Reserve, as far as I know, is basically a bunch of global bankers, who print money and loan it to the government. Pretty crazy.

Have a great day,
The Cyberius team.

goldreset

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Quote from: leavolnhals on April 21, 2019, 11:03:30 AM

they do not save the market by printing money, because when printing a lot of money, the value of the currency will decrease and it will show up on the balance sheet in the forex market.
they just adjusted their economy by printing money, not making their country richer by printing money. Cheesy

Absolutely. Seem like they failed to learn from US.

when a currency is being floated too much into the market, it lose value easily

fiulpro

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If every country starts to print money like they do then there won't be any country that will be poor , the whole economy background will be unstable , right now every country is allowed to print only a certain amount of money based on the economic relationship of that country with respect to dollars , more stronger the economy is more money could you print , unfortunately this rule is very essential of we don't want any complications .
This is somehow managing stuff in a good manner , the whole would is nothing but a part of democratic society * whole world is connected with strings with each other which is very essential for the functioning*

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: muslol67 on April 21, 2019, 05:25:54 AM

If USA wants it, it can create millions of dollars with a very simple decision to make money.

You're off by several orders of magnitude, I think. The amount of "free money" that gets created is staggering, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight--or a solution. The effects of quantitative easing combined with low interest rates have been great in the short term--the stock market certainly isn't complaining--but these economic crutches are going to break eventually.

Why wouldn't Argentina (or any other country for that matter) want to get in on the game? They see what the US has done and what results they've gotten. The problem is that the day of reckoning may well be something that their grand- or great-grandchildren are going to have to deal with. That isn't fair to future generations, but that isn't something politicians seem to care about.

UNOE

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This is personal

Did you know that Japanese central bank owns around 75% of Japanese stocks, their money come from the air and that bubble needs to burst, something similiar to Argentina. High inflations from Argentina or other countries will come to an end, because this system is unsustainable.
What do you think, which system will replace current fiat system?

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Quote from: Artemis3 on April 27, 2019, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: alyssa85 on April 27, 2019, 11:53:21 AM

It's sad what has happened to Argentina. At the start of the 20th century they used to be as wealthy as the Americans. In the last 100 years, the Americans got way richer and emerged as the main superpower while the Argentinians descended into one of the poorest places on earth. There are African and South-East Asian countries wealthier than Argentina now.

It's a massive warning about how things can deteriorate if you have bad government.

And Venezuela was the world's first oil producer in the 50ies, and remained one of the wealthiest countries of south America until the 80ies.

All it took was some politician to mess with the coin... If your government can dictate monetary policy, you are exposed to this.

Bitcoin separates coin from State, you want this, even if you think you don't because your fiat is looking great today...

if a country's wealth is misused by politicians, the state is managed by amateurs or the wealth of a country flows out of the country, then it only takes time for the country to bankrupt and collapse as happened in Venezuela. Argentina should not make a policy by printing a lot of money, it will make their economy plummet

jademaxsuy

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Quote from: Artemis3 on April 21, 2019, 05:47:23 AM

Quote from: jjjfff on April 21, 2019, 05:04:08 AM

After the Fed, ECB, BoJ and PBoC printed over U$ 300 trillion in debt (free money because this debt will never get paid) now non-reserve currency countries want to join the party too.

Argentina is printing free money for their own purposes: https://twitter.com/dlacalle_IA/status/1119660655005634565
"The big guys are doing it, why can't we do it too?"
Why does the US get to print money to save their banks? Why does China pump their stock market by printing more money whenever the stocks dip?
This may be the beginning of the new crash: every country out there decides they want to do quantitative easing too.
US banks got bailed out, why can't governments get bailed out?

Quote from: Daniel Lacalle

The Argentina case should be a serious warning for those defending "printing money to finance government spending".

If thats the warning then what is Venezuela? Argentina WAS bailed out, without anyone expecting it, back in the 2000s by none other than Hugo Chávez, who literally saved Argentina when she was defaulting on her debt and no one wanted their bonds. Chávez ordered a massive buyout (using Venezuela's money, mostly from State oil PDVSA and taxpayers) to help his friend Kirchner, and the bonds suddenly soared so high that Kirchner sold them and paid the entirety of the then Argentina's debt with it.

But then socialist policies came and wasted all the money again, and now nobody bails Venezuela which is in a far worse position and for a far longer time now. 60% yearly inflation? try a million and see if you like living with 5 USD a month, that's the Venezuela where a de-facto government INSISTS in financing all the insane socialist spending by adding money digitally (because printing banknotes is too expensive in this day and age).

I don't understand how someone like Macri who is a businessman would agree to fall into this trap. If you can't pay your bills start shrinking that State, sell what needs to he sold and re-float the country like you would with a company in red. If he lets the socialist thinking prevail, Argentina will have a much grimmer future, just look at Venezuela.

Well it could also be done with the venezuela if there will be a massive buy out of the argentina currency. However, if there ain't then this is where the problem will be remain a problem.

For now, a good solution from the debt must be address. I do not think that printing money will solve the problem since inflation rate still experience. Why would not sell the assets to other countries like opening it for investments? I think many people.would invest and that will help also the problem's economy.

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Quote from: Artemis3 on May 02, 2019, 10:43:19 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on April 29, 2019, 10:30:03 PM

The difference is that in the US they had capitalism and most of the Latin American nations drifted towards socialism. The problem with socialism is that although initially there will be a lot of positives (such as eradication of poverty and free healthcare), very soon the government will run out of money. In case of Venezuela, the petroleum revenue was not growing in line with the growth in the population. Also, the socialist government in Venezuela seems to be very corrupt, even when compared to the other socialist regimes (such as Cuba and DPRK).

No, in the case of Venezuela the State was increasing spending in parallel to the oil price, in addition to severe corruption. This had nothing to do with population growth (which btw, it has shrunk due to massive emigration). Worse than that, they got in huge debts betting that the oil would keep going up.., so not only were they spending more than the oil income, they were spending more than oil income PLUS loans...

Again, corruption was the main reason why the economy got destroyed. It was possible for them to survive, even with the low oil prices and socialism. But the corruption killed off everything. And I think this was the main difference between Maduro and Chavez. The latter was able to keep the corruption in check, while the former allowed it as he needed the loyalty from powerful figures.

CryptoBry

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Quote from: jjjfff on April 21, 2019, 05:04:08 AM

"The big guys are doing it, why can't we do it too?"

Why does the US get to print money to save their banks? Why does China pump their stock market by printing more money whenever the stocks dip? This may be the beginning of the new crash: every country out there decides they want to do quantitative easing too.

US banks got bailed out, why can't governments get bailed out? See where this is going?

The idea that a country can just be printing more money to solve economic ailments can be so damaging on the long-term. Yes, it can be helping the tide for the main time but its side effects can be felt by the people as time goes by. And this solution is not actually the one that can fix everything and will even make things worse especially those economies already suffering from hyper-inflation. More and more disasters can be coming to countries who are adopting this mistake. Ironically, these countries are great critics of America, yet they are following the same blunder. Isn't it funny but sad?

South Park

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Quote from: metalglowd on April 24, 2019, 11:25:57 AM

Oh god, why they just think about the short term effect about this printing money ? Even if they make just for pay the debt, its still didn't work. For a while you maybe can free for financial problem and gets anything with a cheap but in other side slowly when the supply too much, it will decrease the value

Countries are made by people and most people are only concerned about the short term, it is sad but it is the truth, so if they see that the measures taken by the governments have a nice short term effect then the majority will support it even if it goes against their long term well being, this is why we cannot allow governments to spend more money than the taxes they get because if we allow it then it will happen what we are seeing now in which most countries of the world are so indebted that it is going to be impossible for them to pay their debts.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on April 29, 2019, 10:30:03 PM

The difference is that in the US they had capitalism and most of the Latin American nations drifted towards socialism. The problem with socialism is that although initially there will be a lot of positives (such as eradication of poverty and free healthcare), very soon the government will run out of money. In case of Venezuela, the petroleum revenue was not growing in line with the growth in the population. Also, the socialist government in Venezuela seems to be very corrupt, even when compared to the other socialist regimes (such as Cuba and DPRK).

No, in the case of Venezuela the State was increasing spending in parallel to the oil price, in addition to severe corruption. This had nothing to do with population growth (which btw, it has shrunk due to massive emigration). Worse than that, they got in huge debts betting that the oil would keep going up.., so not only were they spending more than the oil income, they were spending more than oil income PLUS loans...

Sithara007

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Quote from: alyssa85 on April 27, 2019, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: Ailmand on April 21, 2019, 05:23:50 AM

Here is the a short article regarding this: https://www.dlacalle.com/en/five-reasons-for-the-weakness-of-the-argentine-economy/ .

Simply said on the article, "Argentina has been, for many years, a country with the potential of a developed economy and a monetary policy of a third-world country." Printing free money for their own purpose causes the value of their money to reduce, making it's ability to buy goods lesser which causes inflation. Printing too much money without even equivalent economic activity or growth will lead to inflation.

It's sad what has happened to Argentina. At the start of the 20th century they used to be as wealthy as the Americans. In the last 100 years, the Americans got way richer and emerged as the main superpower while the Argentinians descended into one of the poorest places on earth. There are African and South-East Asian countries wealthier than Argentina now.

It's a massive warning about how things can deteriorate if you have bad government.

The difference is that in the US they had capitalism and most of the Latin American nations drifted towards socialism. The problem with socialism is that although initially there will be a lot of positives (such as eradication of poverty and free healthcare), very soon the government will run out of money. In case of Venezuela, the petroleum revenue was not growing in line with the growth in the population. Also, the socialist government in Venezuela seems to be very corrupt, even when compared to the other socialist regimes (such as Cuba and DPRK).

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Argentina is now looking at cryptocurrency as a way to bypass the US dollar:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/argentinas-dep-finance-minister-crypto-adoption-could-reduce-demand-for-us-dollar

Quote

In a meeting in Beijing, Argentina’s Deputy Minister of Finance, Felix Martin Soto, claimed that the government should address crypto and blockchain tech as a way to promote Argentina’s financial inclusion and reduce state costs.

Soto, who leads Argentina’s international financial relations, explained that half of the country’s population does not have bank accounts and operate cash transactions by converting their savings to United States dollars.

Soto stated that he believes that promoting crypto industry in the country will help to reduce its demand for USD, which will eventually contribute to stabilizing the local market and attracting global investment.

Artemis3

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Quote from: alyssa85 on April 27, 2019, 11:53:21 AM

It's sad what has happened to Argentina. At the start of the 20th century they used to be as wealthy as the Americans. In the last 100 years, the Americans got way richer and emerged as the main superpower while the Argentinians descended into one of the poorest places on earth. There are African and South-East Asian countries wealthier than Argentina now.

It's a massive warning about how things can deteriorate if you have bad government.

And Venezuela was the world's first oil producer in the 50ies, and remained one of the wealthiest countries of south America until the 80ies.

All it took was some politician to mess with the coin... If your government can dictate monetary policy, you are exposed to this.

Bitcoin separates coin from State, you want this, even if you think you don't because your fiat is looking great today...

alyssa85

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Quote from: Ailmand on April 21, 2019, 05:23:50 AM

Here is the a short article regarding this: https://www.dlacalle.com/en/five-reasons-for-the-weakness-of-the-argentine-economy/ .

Simply said on the article, "Argentina has been, for many years, a country with the potential of a developed economy and a monetary policy of a third-world country." Printing free money for their own purpose causes the value of their money to reduce, making it's ability to buy goods lesser which causes inflation. Printing too much money without even equivalent economic activity or growth will lead to inflation.

It's sad what has happened to Argentina. At the start of the 20th century they used to be as wealthy as the Americans. In the last 100 years, the Americans got way richer and emerged as the main superpower while the Argentinians descended into one of the poorest places on earth. There are African and South-East Asian countries wealthier than Argentina now.

It's a massive warning about how things can deteriorate if you have bad government.

metalglowd

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Oh god, why they just think about the short term effect about this printing money ? Even if they make just for pay the debt, its still didn't work. For a while you maybe can free for financial problem and gets anything with a cheap but in other side slowly when the supply too much, it will decrease the value

Topic: Bitcoin is urgent. Argentina is printing free money too (Read 498 times)