Pages:
Author

Topic: Bitcoin Loans? (Read 2038 times)

reg
sr. member
Activity: 463
Merit: 250
December 14, 2011, 06:50:30 AM
#22


Posts: 776


Sawatdee!



   
   
Re: Bitcoin Loans?
Today at 11:04:34 AM
   
Reply with quote  #25
Quote from: reg on Today at 10:57:12 AM
I am wondering something here.. Am I the first person to use my own BTC debt to take on a second debt??  I used BIB.goat Bonds (my debt) as collateral for a second loan?

no, the EU is currently arranging an increase of a loan fund from 440 billion to about 1 trillion to cover debts incured by greece Italy and others. The main debt holders are France Belgium and others in the EU- the debt is secured on the collateral of the EU nations ie themselves including ermmm.. greece Italy  spain Portugal Ireland France Germany Belgium etc need I go on?  reg

I said my own BTC debt. Debt in the form of BTC.... Does the EU use BTC? If so w00tn33sinthep00tn3ss  but i doubt it.

If money is money and BTC is money then debt is debt. A BTC loan is in principle the same as a fiat money loan and the same problems apply ie how do I ensure my loan is repaid. The same sort of guarantees are sought but more difficult in an anonymous system.  We can only hope BTC are not deemed money (in the French courts) as they( cyberspace strings of random numbers) do not exist in reality. Then you can have what I believe is the real value of BTC the transfer anonamously of agreed value between two individuals without the control and influence of a large organisation.  reg.
reg
sr. member
Activity: 463
Merit: 250
December 14, 2011, 05:57:12 AM
#21
I am wondering something here.. Am I the first person to use my own BTC debt to take on a second debt??  I used BIB.goat Bonds (my debt) as collateral for a second loan?

no, the EU is currently arranging an increase of a loan fund from 440 billion to about 1 trillion to cover debts incured by greece Italy and others. The main debt holders are France Belgium and others in the EU- the debt is secured on the collateral of the EU nations ie themselves including ermmm.. greece Italy  spain Portugal Ireland France Germany Belgium etc need I go on?  reg
reg
sr. member
Activity: 463
Merit: 250
December 14, 2011, 05:41:12 AM
#20
Quote from: kokjo on December 13, 2011, 04:26:06 PM
banks could say: if you don't proof that you are you, and that you live at x, and signs here, here, and here, then fuck you we are not gonna lent you our money

What banks actually do say is : if you already have £ 100 (in collateral ) then we will loan you £100. Larger sums are coverd by endowments or annuities. I have already implied that banks are not buisnesses because they are guaranteed to get their money : ie win win.  The islamic bank offers interest free loans (small amount) based on trust. I loaned 2 BTC last week and will pay it back next week- I needed the 2 BTC fast and got it. whats in it for them? If I dont pay it back my name is mud on the forum! would I risk that ? no. would you?  reg>
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
December 14, 2011, 03:50:36 AM
#19
banks could say: if you don't proof that you are you, and that you live at x, and signs here, here, and here, then fuck you we are not gonna lent you our money


Lol, maybe you mean "prove" instead of proof.  Grin

Is that the only typo you caught?  Grin
IM DOES NOT HAVING ANY TYPOS!
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 14, 2011, 02:58:07 AM
#18
banks could say: if you don't proof that you are you, and that you live at x, and signs here, here, and here, then fuck you we are not gonna lent you our money


Lol, maybe you mean "prove" instead of proof.  Grin

Is that the only typo you caught?  Grin
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
December 14, 2011, 02:47:55 AM
#17
banks could say: if you don't proof that you are you, and that you live at x, and signs here, here, and here, then fuck you we are not gonna lent you our money


Lol, maybe you mean "prove" instead of proof.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
December 13, 2011, 11:26:06 AM
#16
banks could say: if you don't proof that you are you, and that you live at x, and signs here, here, and here, then fuck you we are not gonna lent you our money
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
December 13, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
#15
I have 3 loans going on currently.

One is in the form of a bond traded at GLBSE BIB.goat. Around 340 BTC

The second I used stock as collateral.  40 BTC

The third, I am paying a small amount of interest for something the loaner is providing.  35BTC   (But the seller is loaning me his future hashing power so its a bit tricky)

Smiley
I will look at GLBSE, thank you.
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
December 13, 2011, 04:05:40 AM
#14
Aggregating capital has become so common it's hard to imaging life without loans and debt. Loans should be the exception, not the rule. Financial sorcerers have conjured arcane debt based commodities that perpetuate debt. IBB has simplified loans to bring back loans to a community level. I hope this model catches on. Open Transactions will probably facilitate community based loans, even if the community is global.

Absolutely agree, neither a borrower or a lender be, live within your means etc etc etc when you borrow for business purposes you are selling your company to the the bank far better to grow slowly from your own efforts.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
December 11, 2011, 08:48:32 PM
#13
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
December 08, 2011, 12:58:06 AM
#12
The only way bitcoin loans work are if they happen within a closed community. I've loaned significant sums before, but only to those I have extremely high confidence in--and who also would lose if they were 'blacklisted.'

It's the wild-west. The only 'laws' that exist are the ones you, as a lender, can enforce.


tl;dr You can't send anyone to collections!
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
December 07, 2011, 10:35:26 PM
#11
I'm trying to figure out how loans with bitcoins work.  Say I were to give John a loan, how can I be sure that John will pay me back if bitcoin is essentially anonymous?  I mean, with regular banks and financial institutions you can either get a secured loan or if it's unsecured and you don't pay them back they'll fuck up your credit.  How can loan companies that use bitcoin be confident that they'll get paid back?

We'll there is a form of credit... it is the WoT gpg system. Although it might not be tied to you IRL, it is tied to your nick. Then it is not that simple to get a 'loan' because you will have to have the 'credit' or lets call it the 'credibility' on the WoT. Then there is still the chance that will not pay you back. So what do you do?

The same thing banks do, you spread the risk and work with in a margin of acceptable risk. It would not be wise to get into the loan business until you become familiar with the nicks and you can work with in an acceptable margin of risk.

PS, If you find anyone giving loans of BTC without a 'Credit Check', they won't be doing it for long and will probably go out of business.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 07, 2011, 10:34:32 PM
#10
Quote
I'm trying to figure out how loans with cash work.  Say I were to give John a loan, how can I be sure that John will pay me back if cash is essentially anonymous?  I mean, with regular banks and financial institutions you can either get a secured loan or if it's unsecured and you don't pay them back they'll fuck up your credit.  How can loan companies that use cash be confident that they'll get paid back?
Good question, very good question indeed.

It seems that banks are failing everywhere. Maybe loan companies are becoming obsolete. I guess it depends on the risk vs reward. Why are you lending money? Are you lending simply to make a maximum profit? Are you lending to help someone improve their quality of life? It's about trust. Communities have a stake in helping one another. Even social networking communities can build trust. Maybe social networking will replace banks.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
December 07, 2011, 10:18:21 PM
#9
Quote
I'm trying to figure out how loans with cash work.  Say I were to give John a loan, how can I be sure that John will pay me back if cash is essentially anonymous?  I mean, with regular banks and financial institutions you can either get a secured loan or if it's unsecured and you don't pay them back they'll fuck up your credit.  How can loan companies that use cash be confident that they'll get paid back?
Good question, very good question indeed.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
December 07, 2011, 12:35:48 AM
#8
another idea i read somewhere else, is that you can give a loan in return for shares in a GLBSE company.

LIF.B shares are worth 0.77 , so if you want 7 BTC loan, give 10 shares of LIF.B that you already own and then once you pay back the loan, get back the shares.

sr. member
Activity: 409
Merit: 251
Crypt'n Since 2011
December 06, 2011, 11:16:01 PM
#7
We could build some sort of p2p credit rating system. 

Pipedreaming. 

Build a block chain that just does loans. A public key used in block chain would be your identity.  Loans would be like transactions.  The block chain length would compute the loan age.  A transactions back to the originator would complete the loan.  How well the loan was paid back and the age of the identity can be used to compute a credit rating.

Problem: How would you keep people from loaning money to themselves to artificially increase their own credit score? Possibly a loan fee?

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 06, 2011, 09:33:36 PM
#6
Aggregating capital has become so common it's hard to imaging life without loans and debt. Loans should be the exception, not the rule. Financial sorcerers have conjured arcane debt based commodities that perpetuate debt. IBB has simplified loans to bring back loans to a community level. I hope this model catches on. Open Transactions will probably facilitate community based loans, even if the community is global.
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 500
December 06, 2011, 09:27:03 PM
#5
Ona a large scale, this only works  if the loan is secured. in other words, you need to place a deposit.

We did try that out on our exchange but the interest was neglegtible and the discussions around the sense or nonsense made us switch of the feature again and replace it with an options system.

Here the basic thoughts on the loan system that we had in place:
1. Trader A would place an offer to loan coans for a defined fee, for a defined period of time and he specifies the deposit that he requires.
2. Trader B taking up the loan offer would then deposit the amount with the exchange, and receive the coins from trader A (obviously the deposit into the exchanges' escrow account happens automatically)
3. Trader B at a later point in time decides either to forfeit his deposit (incase the price of the loaned coins went up) or pay back the loaned amount and receive back his deposit (if the price of the loaned items went down).

Obviously Trader A - in order to protect himself against trader B forfeiting the deposit - will choose a deposit that is considerably) higher than the current market price of the loaned amount.

So the question is, why would anyone be loaning the amounts? Trader B could just go and buy the coins of the market with the current market value (i.e. lower than what Trader A asked as a deposit) , and in case he needs to hedge his investment, he can buy a sell-option.

But if you guys thnk it still makes sense to put up a loan system based on above "strategy", I will seriously consider activating the feature again.

legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1097
December 06, 2011, 09:13:25 PM
#4
Now more seriously. As far as you don't know counterparty, you don't have any way how to force payback. You answered yourself pretty correctly.

However I can imagine some web of trust where lending will be possible when there's at least some connection between both parties. Unfortunately I'm not a specialist to networks like Ripple, so I don't know how exactly it should work.

I have (good) personal experience with bitcoin lending. Few months ago I borrowed 700 BTC from one good guy on this forum, because I wanted to order some goods asap and I had money on the way. It was pretty big risk for that lender, because I had a chance to run away with those coins and he even didn't know my real name (well, it was long before I had 1777 posts Smiley.
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
December 06, 2011, 09:04:22 PM
#3
I'm trying to figure out how loans with bitcoins work.

They don't work.

And there I have my answer.
Pages:
Jump to: