Bitcoin losing its P2P efficiency!! | Bitcointalksearch.org

Promocodeudo

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on December 22, 2023, 03:05:07 PM

You know the truth: Bitcoin has just become an investment scheme. Everyone just wants to make money from Bitcoin investments; hence, no one cares about the real goal of Bitcoin. True, Bitcoin still uses a peer-to-peer payment method, but it is insignificant in comparison. Due to the high fees, it has become hard to make payments in any marketplace through Bitcoin. Because congested network transaction times wouldn't meet with the payment gateway. In this manner, it's true that Bitcoin is losing efficiency. Developers should find a solution to reduce transaction fees and avoid congested networks.

Boss you outlined a fact here, people failed to recognise this problem, this is why most people in the signature campaigns prefers using the exchange wallet to receive their payment in other to avoid any extra fee unless for those who want to hold completely, this high fee of a thing is a problem I hear some people say that bitcoiners should concentrate on purpose for bitcoin existence, but the question is, will people hold forever, no matter how long we hold some day, some time we will make an option either to continue holding or withdraw a little bit and this will pose a threat on us because of the fee involved, I think an urgent attention should be given to the high fee to allow more users to allow more users to embrace this innovation by making payment through the system and indirectly advertising this innovation called bitcoin, though this is my opinion.

Synchronice

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To my mind, Bitcoin is a currency that satoshi created with short-term plan and he hadn't thought about long-term plans and if I recall correctly, he somewhere mentioned that he had a hope that developers would improve it over time (correct me if I am wrong).

At the moment transaction fees are low but overall, Bitcoin is not always a good choice for making a p2p transactions and it's not the optimal choice the power that miners have and the way whole process works because miners can easily increase the transaction fees if they flood mempool with very high transaction fees (after all, they receive them back via mined blocks, so, fees that they pay to increase transaction fees, aren't wasted).

kojektea

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Bitcoin was originally created for alternative transactions, it was supposed to be used for people who transacted on the black market initially. but because of the uniqueness of bitcoin, which has a limited supply, there has been innovation in bitcoin until it was released to the public. What this means is that they have made this a commodity asset, but that of course eliminates the characteristic of bitcoin, which was originally P2P. but here are the facts. even if bitcoin is made p2p how much will it cost to just make transactions?

yhiaali3

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According to my personal opinion, Bitcoin lost its P2P efficiency a long time ago, not because of the rise in fees, but because of its deviation from its basic path for which it was created. Bitcoin has turned into an investment only and not to be used as a means of peer-to-peer payment.

When the price of Bitcoin began to rise, people started rushing to own Bitcoin to invest and make huge profits, so most of them forgot or did not know in the first place that Bitcoin is not a way to make money, but rather a means of P2P payment.

Therefore, in my opinion, the high fees are a result, not a cause.

Richbased

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on December 22, 2023, 03:05:07 PM

You know the truth: Bitcoin has just become an investment scheme. Everyone just wants to make money from Bitcoin investments; hence, no one cares about the real goal of Bitcoin. True, Bitcoin still uses a peer-to-peer payment method, but it is insignificant in comparison. Due to the high fees, it has become hard to make payments in any marketplace through Bitcoin. Because congested network transaction times wouldn't meet with the payment gateway. In this manner, it's true that Bitcoin is losing efficiency. Developers should find a solution to reduce transaction fees and avoid congested networks.

You are correct, every Bitcoin investors is just geared on how to make profits from Bitcoin investments rather than use Bitcoin to make transactions from person to person directly without seeking the service or assistance from centralized body or a third party which was the sole reason for inventing bitcoin and due to congestion in the mempool and high transactions fees rate has made the system difficult because transactions now take longer time to confirm so this might cost some reduction in the number of Bitcoin hodlers. Although every investor needs to make some profits from their investments but let's not forget the reason for introducing Bitcoin.

I quite agree with you that it's developers needs to proffer lasting remedy to this effect if not the number of Bitcoin investors hodling Bitcoin might start depreciating and it might really conquer the goal of Bitcoin becoming massive in other to pave way for it's adoption globally.

Apocollapse

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@new19980

You can use bluewallet because it doesn't have to open a channel although it's custodial https://bluewallet.io/features/

Increasing the mempool size from 300 MB to 2GB or higher won't give any impact as long as the block size and the transactions per second are still same.

Also you shouldn't post in a row since it's not allowed in this forum.

new19980

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Lightning is TRASH for small transactions since you need to use BTC to open a channel
the only way is to block those BRC20 shit tokens and if possible increase pool capacity from 300 MB to +2GB

new19980

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isnt the fees increase because of those BRC20 SHIT Tokens ? i heard one of bitcoincore devs
saying that they have plans to block them from the network in next updates also 300 MB on the mempool seem
too small i hope they can increase it to 2 GB or something

mindrust

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Quote from: Kakmakr on December 23, 2023, 06:35:42 AM

Yes and No....

The congested Mempool is part of a coordinated attack and not the normal day2day transactions that we are supposed to have on a daily basis. We also know if more people used the Lightning Network for daily transactions, then congestion on the Blockchain would not have been an issue.

We should allow the developers to find counter measures for these kinds of attacks and we should also allow for Bitcoin enthusiasts to solve the mystery of who is behind these attacks. Wink

Technically, this is not an attack. Some people who love NFT's are willing to pay more than the other people who want to create cheap transactions that's all. The attacker is the dev who implemented this feature and thought it was a good idea. Whoever he is, should be kicked out immediately and never again come close anywhere coding bitcoin.

If this thing keeps going, soon bitcoin will indeed lose its cash functionality completely. It will be a cat pic market.

Blitzboy

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It is very interesting to see how Bitcoin has changed from a p2p system with low fees to one with high transaction fees. At first, Bitcoin's appeal came from the fact that it was cheap and easy to use; it was a digital way to make everyday trades. But as use grew, the blockchain's design caused it to become crowded and charge high fees. SegWit and Layer 2 solutions, while innovative, havent fully resolved these challenges.

Bitcoin's place in the digital economy has changed because of this congestion and the high fees that come with it. For me, and many others, Bitcoin has become more of an investment asset than a medium for everyday transactions. As Hhampuz's experience shows, the high fees make it impossible to do small deals. That other cryptocurrencies, like Tron and Doge, are better for everyday trades is becoming more and more clear. In all its digital glory, Bitcoin is changing into a digital gold, a safe haven rather than a way to buy things.

hatshepsut93

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I see a lot of newbies are concerned about the fees, but nothing new has happened over the recent years, it has all been discussed back in 2016-2017. Bitcoin (and all other cryptocurrencies) has fundamental limitations, blockspace can't be made too large or the network will stop being peer-to-peer. And while the current fees can be blamed on NFTs, the fees are bound to only go up and up. So forget about Bitcoin being a p2p currency fir buying small things - it's mostly a store of value that is supposed to be resilient to inflation.

Alpha Marine

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High transaction fees are one thing that can hinder Bitcoin adoption. Bitcoin adoption to me is not about how many countries accept Bitcoin as legal tender, it's not about how many people use Bitcoin. All these things are important I know but it doesn't matter how many people use Bitcoin if they can't use it whenever they want.

Bitcoin adoption to me is being able to use Bitcoin at any time. What's the point of all that privacy and animosity if you have to wait hours for a transaction to be completed?

I don't think Bitcoin is losing its P2P efficiency but high transaction fees is discouraging its adoption.

348Judah

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on December 22, 2023, 12:25:26 PM

Take for example this post made by Hhampuz who is one of the most reputable campaign managers on Bitcoin talk.
In that post Hhampuz made mention of spending roughly $200 /week on fees for each campaign. Now assuming Hhampuz managess 5 campaigns for 15 weeks, taking the math he would have spent an enormous amount of about $15,000 (~0.34BTC) on fees only. Considering these enormous fees P2P transactions would become uneconomical.

You're right, many people are making use of the bitcoin network because of how cheap it appears, but it's becoming more difficult for people to maintain this standard anymore because of the high transaction fee, you could see this confirmation from some other campaign managers who have made a decision of making payments using other coins, just to be able to bypass the transaction high fee on bitcoin network.

Same also have so many of the bitcoin users are facing now because they couldn't afford the high fee, they had prefer using other network in making transactions by exchanging bitcoin in other to serve their purpose, we may be in expectations of something new to ease the whole thing coming this new year if the developers made such decision for that.

avp2306

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Sad part here is there's less number of people use bitcoin for p2p transactions but rather majority choose altcoins even before since it gives them convenience especially on transaction speed and fees. Right now majority of people use bitcoin for investment since this is what inserted first on their mind and they always speculate on when the price it pump and how much price they could sell it on exchange.

The true essence of bitcoin and its usage has been erase out by hodl or trading mindset since this is what always portrayed to the people and can't blame people to think about that since majority of us here want to earn and take advantage on current situation where bitcoin price is volatile.

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Quote from: CODE200 on December 23, 2023, 01:10:07 AM

Quote from: ThemePen on December 22, 2023, 09:45:16 PM

This is just due the f*cking ordinals. The Bitcoin fee was normal or even low in previous days. And I hope this will go down because these ordinala are not long lasting. Soon they will not exist in the crypto world.
By the way there is one more reason, the popularity and adoption of Bitcoin increased, the congestion in the mempool and the competition for block space led to noticeable increases in transaction fees.
As we can see the Bitcoin Price is increasing, with this significantly the transaction fee also increasing. Hope it will come down soon.

Definitely the goddamn ordinals, there's no utility that I can see in these ordinals besides the fact that they generate more profit for miners because the mempool becomes more congested which makes it more expensive for us to do transactions because ordinals are considered a transaction too which makes the queue much longer and so they payment for priority gets more expensive. I share the same hope as you, that ordinals are going to perish eventually but right now, it seems that there's some groups of people that aren't happy with it having to go away so either we get more patient with our transactions since the optimal thing to do is set the fee to a lower than usual amount and wait for the transaction much longer or we just don't do a lot of transactions for now or maybe lessen it.

We all wish ordinals would go away and transaction fees would return to normal, but do you think that will happen? Because if we think more carefully, we can see that there are many people who benefit from high transaction fees. So I seriously doubt that Ordinals or BRC-20 will disappear from the market anytime soon. I even see the BRC-20 trend becoming stronger as they are supported by major exchanges.

I don't know if the developers have a solution for this problem, but I don't think Ordinals will disappear as many people expect, and the solution of waiting for them to disappear is not feasible because there are many people who are benefiting greatly from there.

Kakmakr

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Yes and No....

The congested Mempool is part of a coordinated attack and not the normal day2day transactions that we are supposed to have on a daily basis. We also know if more people used the Lightning Network for daily transactions, then congestion on the Blockchain would not have been an issue.

We should allow the developers to find counter measures for these kinds of attacks and we should also allow for Bitcoin enthusiasts to solve the mystery of who is behind these attacks. Wink

gunhell16

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We know that as the Bitcoin network becomes overloaded, transaction fees will rise, causing problems for holders who perform transactions here.
Then, when it comes to scalability, we know that the Bitcoin network has a limited amount of transactions per second, and this constraint, or in another phrase, blocksize, is what creates a delay or backlog in transaction confirmation, further affecting p2p efficiency.

Overall, even if Bitcoin is losing its peer-to-peer efficiency, I believe it will stay an opinion. Because, as far as I can tell, both perspectives are equally valid. Then there's the question of what I see in the future of Bitcoin's p2p capabilities. This is only my view.

Agbe

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on December 22, 2023, 03:05:07 PM

You know the truth: Bitcoin has just become an investment scheme. Everyone just wants to make money from Bitcoin investments; hence, no one cares about the real goal of Bitcoin. True, Bitcoin still uses a peer-to-peer payment method, but it is insignificant in comparison. Due to the high fees, it has become hard to make payments in any marketplace through Bitcoin. Because congested network transaction times wouldn't meet with the payment gateway. In this manner, it's true that Bitcoin is losing efficiency. Developers should find a solution to reduce transaction fees and avoid congested networks.

You just spoke my mind. I don't know what they are still waiting for when the large number of people are crying about the high transaction fee and yet they are giving deaf ears. This is something that need urgent attention. Government can't destroy Bitcoin because it does not have a central server that use to store data control information but the users can make a stop to it once they stop using it then the coin will become worthless. Bitcoin is valued because the users are many and if the transaction fee is like this then many will back out. And I am suspecting that it is the government that is bringing this ordinals. I'm suspecting that this is the only way they are using to deal with bitcoin. Developers should take a drastic step to coil the situation fast so that investors will come to site. As it is everybody is afraid because they don't know if they invest they would make profit from it.

Dump3er

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on December 22, 2023, 12:25:26 PM

One or the Most significant reasons for the creation of Bitcoin was,to create a currency easy and suitable to be used for peer-to-peer transactions.
During the first eight to nine years of its launch, Bitcoin actually achieved this goal, With fees considerably low as just a few cents. However things began to change at about early 2016 when fees began to increase noticably, and during late 2017 when the mempool started having congestions, which influenced transaction fees directly.

Of course, One can say the reason for the very low fees during its earliest stages was a result of low adoption and a less congested mempool. We can also confirm that due to the problems of competition for block spaces which led to high fees, Bitcoin's block size was increased on August 24, 2017 by the application of the SEGWIT protocol upgrade known as "Segregated witness" in full. This definitely helped in malleability of transactions by separating the signature data (withness data) from the transaction data to free up block space.

Other solutions like the layer 2 that became popular during 2018,also helped reduce congestions and fees by conducting majority of transactions off the Blockchain making transactions more scalable and faster.

However, upon these upgrades and solutions, as Bitcoin grew the congestion problem has become more and more prominent especially due to the effects of ordinals in recent times.These congestion and fee problems are gradually exempting the need to make simple day to day transactions with Bitcoin thereby bring the need for people to make small transactions with other stable altcoins like Tron and Doge.

Take for example this post made by Hhampuz who is one of the most reputable campaign managers on Bitcoin talk.
In that post Hhampuz made mention of spending roughly $200 /week on fees for each campaign. Now assuming Hhampuz managess 5 campaigns for 15 weeks, taking the math he would have spent an enormous amount of about $15,000 (~0.34BTC) on fees only. Considering these enormous fees P2P transactions would become uneconomical.

Whether we like it or not, but one of the most important value propositions of BTC was its unshakable foundation for censorship-resistant data inscription and transfer. Everyone remembers how ETH got once criticized for their move to hard fork and role back the network history. Now I understand that conditions are different, but one thing is the same: we are talking about core principles being eroded. I don't have a clear cut opinion on that, but I think it is important to gather info, insights and opinion to come with one's own point of view.

In this case I think Adam Back has a strong point when he says

Quote

"...the high fees drive adoption of layer2 and force innovation..."

as he also adds that there will be other ways to inscript stuff that overload the network. I feel the frustration about the high fees too, but the discussion about the if and the why is important.

CODE200

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Quote from: ThemePen on December 22, 2023, 09:45:16 PM

This is just due the f*cking ordinals. The Bitcoin fee was normal or even low in previous days. And I hope this will go down because these ordinala are not long lasting. Soon they will not exist in the crypto world.
By the way there is one more reason, the popularity and adoption of Bitcoin increased, the congestion in the mempool and the competition for block space led to noticeable increases in transaction fees.
As we can see the Bitcoin Price is increasing, with this significantly the transaction fee also increasing. Hope it will come down soon.

Definitely the goddamn ordinals, there's no utility that I can see in these ordinals besides the fact that they generate more profit for miners because the mempool becomes more congested which makes it more expensive for us to do transactions because ordinals are considered a transaction too which makes the queue much longer and so they payment for priority gets more expensive. I share the same hope as you, that ordinals are going to perish eventually but right now, it seems that there's some groups of people that aren't happy with it having to go away so either we get more patient with our transactions since the optimal thing to do is set the fee to a lower than usual amount and wait for the transaction much longer or we just don't do a lot of transactions for now or maybe lessen it.

Topic: Bitcoin losing its P2P efficiency!! (Read 587 times)