Topic: Bitcoin Miners Face Leanest Month of 2024: August Earnings Hit Year’s Low (Read 914 times)

worse for the environment?

so you live in a cave with no modern technology?.. oh wait guess not, seeing as you use electric too, to be able to interact on this forum

you do realise that the amount of miners are not centralised in one city..nor produce smog.. and if they were they would not replace the electric demand of even a mid size city. so counting the amount of cities in the world and then realise bitcoin uses less than one of those cities demands, you will see the effect is not even 0.1%

did you know that there are more EV cars that use more electric than bitcoin does.. so are you saying that EV cars are bad for the environment, in comparison to say fossil fuelled cars, in comparison to say fossil fuel tuk tuks or fossil fuel mopeds/scooters
so how do you travel? by magic carpet?, riding the back of a giant snail?

so knowing the numbers.. which technology or utility do you want to get rid of

oh and by the way, the UK fiat system(pounds) uses more electric than bitcoin.. where UK pounds only facilitates the money functions of a small island country, where as bitcoin is international.. yep bitcoin reaches around the world but its environmental impact is not even that of a small city

.. your response just goes to show you have alot more to learn about many things, both related to bitcoin aswell as general economics and environmental impact. hope you decide one day to do some research and not make silly responses

things are more complicated than just black and white franky. i could do without your personal attacks/insults though. they don't accomplish anything. but consider this: you like proof of work better than proof of stake. but proof of work is worse for the environment. which do you consider more important? your wallet or the environment. sometimes we have to make compromises to facilitate the greater good for the planet. ethereum has done that and we shouldn't criticize them for it. how much greenhouse gas emissions has vitalik saved by moving ethereum to proof of stake? probably alot more than anyone here has by switching over to an electric vehicle and patting themself on the back..

you have been on this forum for 3 and a half years and your education about bitcoin seems to be equal to someone with 2 weeks research. are you purposefully acting ignorant to be spoonfed information and then ignoring it to annoy people into repeating it.. or are you just trolling?

you have been told things before and then you act like you know nothing. all in an aim to pretend your preferred altcoin is better somehow.. everyone else on the forum (well 98% of them) know that your preferred altcoin is not superior and infact has more issues, so it might be worth you doing some proper self education to learn about bitcoin and your altcoin to realise where you should store your wealth long term..

a hint in May 2022 your preferred altcoin stabilised to shadow follow bitcoins trades the ratio of btc:eth was 1:12 and slowly now its 1:24 meaning that although the alt tried to shadow follow bitcoins trades it keeps losing price pegging strength and cant stay inline at a stable ratio..

eth also has a very low underlying cost of minting blocks and so its difference between bottom value($50) and current price ($2.6k) shows that your preferred altcoin is speculating at a high premium compared to value. where as bitcoins bottom line value in q3 of 2024 ($50k+) and is price ($65k) is nearer to value and a great opportunity, as the ability to speculate to a premium is better for bitcoin, where as ethereum has better odds of falling DEEPLY

i don't necessarily know why wall street would have any interest in bitcoin. nor do i care because bitcoin is not a company that has a product or service. it probably doesn't even belong on wall street. and these people you are talking about on wall street i doubt many of them even own any bitcoin at all. it's just something they talk about but don't really care about. why should they? bitcoin didn't make them rich. they got rich by fiat.


to the extent that they are more informed about current market conditions and what is likely to happen in the next year or so yes i think they have insider information. and once they start selling, it causes other people to do the same thing. which causes bitcoin to drop maybe. if they were smart enough to get involved with bitcoin when it was worth $1 then they're smart enough to know when is the ideal time to sell it.

How do "they" know what's going on? Do you really think that "they" ("old wallets") have insider information? No, they just had a banal desire to sell at the current price. What should you expect if you urgently need money? A completely natural phenomenon and that's all.

Of course, progress does not stand still. New technologies will come to replace blockchain technology and its derivatives. A little analytics is needed. In the modern world, there is access to almost any information.

yet you have in recent months been idolising the staking prospect of ethereum.... have you not realised the reward rate of ethereum staking is far less than 200% per 4 years

anyways lets take ethereums 3.56%/year 'profit' (15% over 4 years cumulatively)
even my basic fiat bank account offers 4.2% which over 4 years is (17.88% over 4 years cumulatively)

the stock market averages 8% a year  (36% over 4 years cumulatively)
so just hoarding bitcoin which per 4 year cycle has and will be better than inflation and other assets.. will pay off just hoarding

bitcoin by its many factors(you should learn about) is and will be deflationary for everyone alive today life time
(as long as there is no large bug that kills bitcoin)

you need to really understand the many factors of bitcoin economics to realise why even the most highly paid economic strategists of wall street have even bothered to invest billions in labour and research and operating budgets to get things like the ETF's activated and operating

...

yes diversifying to not have all eggs in one basket is safe legit advice, yes the future is a unknown path where bugs can happen or other world atrocities or economics take over.. but thats long term investment risk of anything
the current scope of the nearest 2 decades+ shows that calling bitcoin a dying horse this year is far from the truth, its still young and the risk level of hoarding for 4-20 years is far less risk than what you keep implying. 2024 is not a death note, condolence card, its a teenagers birthday card
 

that depends on what else it out there for them to mine instead. i guess. no one necessarily has loyalty to bitcoin. if something else is more profitable and they can mine that instead they'll probably do it. and then what you'll have with bitcoin is a bunch of people fighting for table scraps.
 

i mean franky don't expect to sit on your rear end and become a millionaire without lifting a finger. the world is not that simplistic. that's another thing about bitcoin that i don't particularly care for is how i think it encourages laziness. people just want to sit back and become a millionaire as though it is owed to them just because they bought some bitcoin... now, if it's part of their overall investment strategy and diversification plan to set themself up financially over the longterm then that's respectable. but not just yoloing into something thinking you don't need to work you can be lazy and bitcoin will take care of you.

1. bitcoin has PROOF OF WORK as its block creation mechanism, which means you can make money via proof of work.... unlike legiteums sad preference of a stake coin which he thinks makes him money doing nothing... its good to see him eat his own words and realise his preferred PoS coin is not going to make him a millionaire/billionaire

2. the whole point of proof of work is that the work has a cost and so there is an underlying cost that protects value.. unlike legiteums preferred PoS coin thats just speculation and inflation increased production.. its good to see him eat his own words and realise his preferred PoS coin is not going to make him a millionaire/billionaire

3. i wonder id legiteum hears his own words and realises it when said in comparison to his preferred PoS coin

i do laugh when i see people being swayed by idiots to abandon bitcoin for an inferior coin/token/network that has no proof of work and no underlying cost mechanism to support the value.. but they dont wanna hear that

We have been down this road before; multiple times in fact and one thing that has been clear is that Bitcoin won't be going anywhere. If people need ultra cheap transactions, they can port elsewhere. For me, my biggest concern is how many of these miners that aren't profitable right now will still be here when there are no more block rewards and only rewards are from tx fees?

If they take losses even with block rewards enabled, I'm imagining what it would look like when the block rewards tap stop following. Either fees are raised exponentially and small users leave or keep fees low and miners leave. If this is resolved, I think Bitcoin will be here for a long time. I mean, we already solved block rewards.

i think people who put all their trust in bitcoin are kind of shortsighted to the extent that what you just mentioned. it would be really arrogant and conceited to think that something better is not going to come along and bitcoin will die a slow death. it's just the way things are. no wonder some of those old satoshi era wallets woke up recently and starting hitting the sell button they know what's up. 

use it for what it is good for but don't expect it to make you a millionaire or billionaire without you doing any work. it might not even be a good store of value. in the long term. but i know people don't want to hear that...

And who, in general, says that Bitcoin will exist in a few years? Where does such a probable scenario come from? Just want it and that's it? Well, that really won't be enough. I am considering the option in which something different and unique will come to replace the blockchain technology, meeting the requirements of that time. Why do I think like that? All because the technological process does not stand still and is developing by leaps and bounds. The computer direction is also improving, which is capable of changing the course of history. Yes, it sounds loud, but we should all look at the modern world and understand this.

franky i understand what you're saying about how people will use smaller and smaller units of bitcoin but that is only if bitcoin price relative to the us dollar keeps going up. it can't go up by 200% every 4 years for the next 25 years that is mathematically and economically impossible. the price of 1 bitcoin can never equal to $50,837,316,566,580,000. that's not 50 trillion us dollars franky. that's 50 QUADRILLION US DOLLARS.

no matter what the economics of bitcoin are in the future, no matter anything, it can never happen that the value of 1 bitcoin is that large. so anything else you have to say about that is just inconsequential. keep in mind there's also a possibility that bitcoin doesn't go anywhere that it just stays where it is right now or goes lower.

unlike gold, which for some reason you mention and i don't know why, bitcoin can have competitors. competitors that could come along and take marketshare away from it. so i'd say in 100 years, it's far more likely that gold retains its value than bitcoin does. but that's just my opinion. in 1000 years, gold for sure. 

Revenues will continue to decline as mining complexity increases incredibly quickly and equipment becomes obsolete at exactly the same rate. Can you imagine the cost of buying new equipment? It's simply astronomical money if mining is done on an industrial scale. Not every company is able to buy new equipment every year. It is highly likely that this will be their last step in this business. Alas, but such are the times. They require sacrifices.

in 100 years people are not going to be moving whole bitcoins (thats the point your not getting)
so you emphasising $5trill/btc is like saying a 10k tonne gold bar is worth $460bill so lets kill gold usage

much like we are not in the era of 2012 where even i was normally moving 1000 bitcoin at a time, now i only move 1btc at a time and in the future will only be moving xxxsat amounts at a time

much like ancient egyptians moved tonnes/kg of gold at a time and now we move ounce, grams

you are again thinking that in 100 years the blockchain will be producing more then 1btc reward per block to be producing $5 trillion per block. which you now admit is not feasible in comparison to a countries GDP if you multiplied that across a demograph of holders..

what you need to realise is in dates like 2012 a "whale" was someone with 10k coins+ now a "whale" is someone with 100coins+ because the fiat value moved up, and in the future whales will be the ones with 1btc, then 0.001btc
just looking at the whale position shift of 15 years will show you the shift pattern of the next 100 years
individuals wont have whole bitcoins in the next century.. get it yet (individuals dont have whole tonne gold bars)

as for the other factors you have not understood. its not needed now, but in 20-100 years there will be a flip from reward being main income and fee being a bonus, to a situation where the reward is the bonus and the fee is the income
(there are other economics involved but you still not at the stage of basic economic understand to progress discussions onto deeper economics)

...
as for your horse analogy.. a average horse lifespan is 30 years. you are trying to say that a young 3 year old horse is a dying horse because its life is more than 25 years, so you want to shoot a healthy 3year old horse now because you fear its lifespan of over 25 years is not enough

to you a 10year old human child is a dying human because its lifespan is 80+... so you might aswell kill a 10yo kid now out of fear of it getting old in 80 years
..

i understand you are a ethereum fanboy and have no concept of bitcoins features, functions and economics(as proven in other topics) but it seems you have gone completely blind about real basics that can be found out in just 10 minutes of research.. or just sitting in a chair with a cup of coffee and actually just thinking rationally about real life stuff and the numbers

..

please understand this simple concept
although you think 3.125btc a block is a small number with not much divisions left
its actually 312500000, meaning alot of units per block and alot of divisions to go

the rule is you can't use someone else's equipment you have to buy your own. can't partner up with anyone. only YOU get free unlimited electricity. not for you to share with someone else like whoever that person is you are talking about.

there are already with free electricity. some people who rent their landlord pays their electric bill. i don't see them mining bitcoin...


franky, you're the one that said the rewards go up in value by 200% every 4 years. in order for that to happen EVERYONE'S bitcoin has to go up by 200% every 4 years which leads to a contradiction as I already pointed out since bitcoin can not ever feasibly reach a valuatation of $50837316566580000 in the next 25 4-year cycles.


it's definitely a dying horse franky. once those rewards dry up, you're going to see a mass exodus of miners over to some newer coin that actually pays rewards still. maybe a fork of bitcoin even. doesn't that make sense? 

but it wont be producing 1btc a day, nor 1btc a week, nor 1btc a month so you thinking that it would be producing multiple trillions quickly is in error

in 2124 it would be producing only 9 sats per block as a reward, which over a year would be 9*52500=0.00472500btc a year
also within 12-100 years alot of other economics both on fiat side and btc side would kick in, but yet again i need to take things slowly and spoonfeed the baby steps details first

but can you atleast acknowledge that bitcoin is not going to stop mining this year or this decade and has many decades to go of mining.... if you can acknowledge that concept then we can dig deeper into the more economic details that will occur in the future

so far you think bitcoin in this year is a "dying horse" without realising that in human years its a tween and not even an adult. with far more years to go compared to years already passed

so do you accept the concept that bitcoin can continue mining for more then 120 years and only 15 years have passed so far, so not really a "dying horse"

Are you arguing against your own hypothetical example? You started the post by saying that,


Which is a laughable claim because if someone truly had "free and unlimited" electricity, that would be a golden opportunity to mine Bitcoin with a very big advantage. Tell Jihan Wu you have a source to free electricity and definitely he'll be paying you a percentage of coins mined to give him access. It's guaranteed profit.

extrapolating that to the next 25 4-year cycles seems somewhat dubious though franky.  even you yourself would have to admit that there is no way that in 100 years from now bitcoin is going to be able to keep up that pace of 200% growth every 4 years. if it did it would be worth around $2,013,265,920,000 in 2124. That's right, 1 btc would be worth 2 trillion dollars.


my bank doesn't even pay any interest at all!  

actually my computations was wrong. in 25 4-year cycles, 1 bitcoin would be worth $50837316566580000 thus invalidating that bitcoin can continue to grow.

By locking your coins to staking pools, you take some risks.

Impermanent loss.
Lack of flexibility to sell your coins when price changes big.

Project teams are smart by creating staking feature because it gives people a sweet carrot of promising APR. This serves two purposes: attracting new investors who will bring new money to buy the coin, higher demand I mean; and reducing selling pressure from current coin owners who lock their coins in staking pools.

Stakers can lock their coins for staking without enough understanding of impermanent loss risk while project team members are always ready to dump their coins to get profit.

Could be worse you could be staking ETH that only gives you 3.5% before expenses and that will keep going down as more people stake.
That is the joy of PoS coins you have to keep putting money into it to get money out of it so there is effort and expenses involved.
It's not like some free magical internet money thing. That as we all know never lasts.

-Dave