Bitcoin mixing | Bitcointalksearch.org

stompix

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Quote from: bitmover on August 25, 2023, 04:38:57 AM

We basic live in another world. This technology of exchanging fiat currencies didn't reach Brazil's banking system.
I know many rich people here, millionaires, who don't have a bank account which can receive USD. Regulations are strict here, more than you can imagine.

Bruh! There is SWIFT and IBAN!
I don't even have to know your currency, whether you live be it Uganda or Brazil or Thailand, you give me your SWIFT code and I deposit. I don't even need to have and USD account or an EURO account, exchange is done automatically between banks, that's the whole reason SWIFT was invented in the first place, a settlement platform between banks on foreign currency.

Do you think I need to open a peso account here in Europe to receive money from Argentina?
We have business partners in 20 different currencies, but we always use the same account, the whole international trade would be screed if you needed the same currency accounts in every country.

Quote from: bitmover on August 25, 2023, 04:38:57 AM

But you can't transfer BRL, can you? I don't think you can even buy it in your bank. Try later Wink

So you're telling me nobody in Europe can send you money unless we open a BRL account here? Seriously? Cheesy

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Dunamisx on August 25, 2023, 07:17:07 AM

If you look at the campaign service discussion board, there's a thread created titled Overview of Bitcointalk Signature-Ad Campaigns [Last update: 20-Aug-23] this comprises the numbers of all signature campaigns on this forum both active and non active ones, you can from the list of the ones listed active on the table which have selection of mixers among them, you can check to see a number of the mixing services available and make your choice, you can also see from some of the members wearing their signatures and avatars on the forum.

This is not necessary. He can just click on this link that has been provided above: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2023-list-bitcoin-mixers-bitcoin-tumblers-websites-2827109

All the mixers there are active. Even the recent Whirlwind which is no more functioning has been removed.

Dunamisx

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Quote from: mikementzer10 on August 22, 2023, 05:15:40 AM

Hello everyone, I need help to clean some bitcoins. Does anyone know about some bitcoin mixer?

If you look at the campaign service discussion board, there's a thread created titled Overview of Bitcointalk Signature-Ad Campaigns [Last update: 20-Aug-23] this comprises the numbers of all signature campaigns on this forum both active and non active ones, you can from the list of the ones listed active on the table which have selection of mixers among them, you can check to see a number of the mixing services available and make your choice, you can also see from some of the members wearing their signatures and avatars on the forum.

bitmover

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Quote from: stompix on August 25, 2023, 03:16:35 AM

Quote from: bitmoverlink=topic=5464134.msg62745418#msg62745418 date=1692951395

Additionally, people who live in developing countries mostly don't have an USD/EUR account, which narrow a lot p2p possibilities.

People who live in developing countries and who don't have a bank account are certainly not the major part of the ones who need to sell 1 or 2 BTC at a time in a rush. Besides, things have changed a lot in the last decade, you don't need to transfer USD from an USD to an USD account, you can simply pay a guy from your currency to his national currency the same way, automatic fx exchange is the norm now.

I didn't said people don't have bank account. I said people don't have a USD/EUR bank account. So most brazilians can't make a p2p btc/fiat conversion in this forum, only in local board (which is a small community).

We basic live in another world. This technology of exchanging fiat currencies didn't reach Brazil's banking system.

I know many rich people here, millionaires, who don't have a bank account which can receive USD. Regulations are strict here, more than you can imagine.

I have a bank account that can receive USD/EUR, but it was not easy to create it, and it is far from commmon. Some older people even think that it is illegal (even thought it is not).

It is common to see online banks in US and Europe which accepts all passports but from brazil argetina, ethiopian, uganda, etc...

Quote

Also, how will a guy with no bank account use a Cex to sell his coins?

We can have a bank account in our fiat currency. That is easy to have.

But you can't transfer BRL, can you? I don't think you can even buy it in your bank. Try later Wink

stompix

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Quote from: bitmover on August 23, 2023, 10:26:15 AM

I think this is true for most situations.

If you want to trade a 20usd for an Amazon card, you can certainly use a p2p solution, or some merchant or whatever...

But for people who are heavily invested in bitcoin and want to trade high values, this is not feasible.

Would you dare trade 1 or 2 btc in a p2p? This is very risky, and an exit scam is a real possibility. Additionally, people who live in developing countries mostly don't have an USD/EUR account, which narrow a lot p2p possibilities.

People who live in developing countries and who don't have a bank account are certainly not the major part of the ones who need to sell 1 or 2 BTC at a time in a rush. Besides, things have changed a lot in the last decade, you don't need to transfer USD from an USD to an USD account, you can simply pay a guy from your currency to his national currency the same way, automatic fx exchange is the norm now.
Also, how will a guy with no bank account use a Cex to sell his coins?

I really want to skip a few years till this whole FOMO of missing a x10 return a year finally dies down and we start thinking less of investing and trading and more of real-life usage. Oh, wait, that thing Bitcoin was built to be!

Quote from: bitmover on August 23, 2023, 10:26:15 AM

you can just do 4,5, 6 hops... It is quite cheap to make an on chain transaction with 1-2 sats bytes.

Except that if we exclude a one-week interval there hasn't been any possibility of sending a below 6sat/b fee in the last 6 months.
If you don't split the inputs and outputs you're not doing anything so easily from a 4 cents tx of 1/1 input-output you need a 2$ tx with at least 4 times the size. Multiply that by 5 hops, then think of what extra transactions will do to the fees if 10,000 people will do so and, it stops becoming that trivial.

Quote from: bitmover on August 23, 2023, 10:26:15 AM

On the other hand, trading 2, 3, or even 5 bitcoin is quite secure in the biggest centralized exchanges.

Yeah, it was perfectly secure in both MtGox and FTX case, big, old, trusted exchanges....

Synchronice

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 24, 2023, 02:26:03 PM

Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

I think that if there is really a mixer that inspires trust, it's [banned mixer] without a doubt.

Not even without a doubt, come on. I mean, I had to search that thing. Tongue

The fact is, I had to search that thing too before I was about to post in this thread. The reason why I said that cryptomixer seems the most trustworthy mixer right now is that it operates since May 24, 2016. It's reserves have also been proven by reputable members of this forum, as it seems from their trust rating: prooflink 1, 2, 3. They managed to run this service for a very long time, probably they established a record. So, if I had to mix more than 1 or 2 bitcoins, I would choose this mixer because of the reasons I wrote above. That's just my personal opinion, I say what sounds logical for me.

Quote from: suzanne5223 on August 24, 2023, 06:22:54 PM

My point is that using an old or new mixer is not enough if privacy is a top priority. Yes, aged Tumbler company is a top priority but to be safe it's better to use 1 or 2 privacy services after using a mixing site. I made this statement based on advice once provided by Theymos "You should always operate with the expectation that any anonymity system you use will eventually fail you. "
After operating like that, is when you get a totally clean coin and the right privacy.

Yes, I agree with you on that. Just using a mixer is not completely enough today to protect your privacy and when protecting your privacy, you should always low self-esteem.

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Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

Quote from: suzanne5223 on August 23, 2023, 01:07:42 PM

@m2017 It is not a good idea to totally trust a crypto tumbler service, it's better to also make use of 2-3 privacy services if want to have a solid clean BTC.
@SynchroniceThe long existence of a Bitcoin tumbler is not what is important if privacy or BTC cleaning is the top priority because the said mixer is still never shut down because they are yet to have an issue with the authority.

Bitcoin mixers are constantly under pressure, right? So, when mixer provides mixing service for years without scam accusation and manages to survive for years under the pressure, that automatically makes me to choose that over brand new one.

Your reasons are clear but let me clear your doubt Bitcoin mixers are not actually under pressure and for the record, they are recognized by FinCEN which also identifies it as a technique invented to avert others from tracing the transmission back to its source.
A certain mixer can be only under pressure if fails to follow the rules and regulations of FinCen for cryptocurrency related business models or mixer coins that are on the radar of the government agency.

Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

If privacy is your priority, then I would say that this service is absolutely trust based one because you never know whether you are an user of a compromised website or not. So, I don't understand what's your point? Logically, isn't it better to keen towards old, well-established service? By the way, if you wanna hear my opinion about new mixers, I think Sinbad.io will become a new chipmixer but it's still early to speculate anything.

My point is that using an old or new mixer is not enough if privacy is a top priority. Yes, aged Tumbler company is a top priority but to be safe it's better to use 1 or 2 privacy services after using a mixing site. I made this statement based on advice once provided by Theymos "You should always operate with the expectation that any anonymity system you use will eventually fail you. "
After operating like that, is when you get a totally clean coin and the right privacy.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

I think that if there is really a mixer that inspires trust, it's [banned mixer] without a doubt.

Not even without a doubt, come on. I mean, I had to search that thing. Tongue

If you don't feel confident with handing over your coins to a stranger, don't use a mixer. Install Sparrow wallet and use the Whirlpool coinjoin feature. It's pretty easy to use, and dependent on the time you'll leave your computer open, you can make your coins even more difficult to trace as they can be picked for future mixes for free.

Quote from: ranochigo on August 24, 2023, 01:12:53 PM

Bitcoin is not fungible to them but what can you do?

Unfortunately, it only requires a handful exchanges to hit the fungibility of the currency. I don't buy the taint nonsense, but when I get asked to send the bitcoin to some address, quite frequently, the merchant / receiver uses some exchange. Fortunately, I haven't happened to be censored yet.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 23, 2023, 09:16:56 AM

Even that is not proof. "I sold an old laptop to my friend. He wanted to pay me in bitcoin, so I gave him my deposit address for my Coinbase/Binance/whatever account. He paid the coins directly from the mixer to my account."

The bottom line is that as soon as a transaction has happened, you cannot say the bitcoin haven't changed hands. As soon as a transaction has more than 1 input and 1 output, you cannot say which bitcoin ended up where - indeed, "which" bitcoin is a concept which doesn't actually exist. The very concept of taint is provably nonsense. It is a triumph of blockchain analysis companies that they have convinced governments to force centralized exchanges to pay them hefty fees to peddle this nonsense.

Of course you can't and that is a perfectly logical explanation. Generally, the clause of the exchange's TOS forbids the association of these tainted coins. Even if you were to argue from this narrative, they have the rights to not serve and allow you to trade on their platform.

Bitcoin is not fungible to them but what can you do? You have two options, build your case by intentionally running your coins through multiple hops and come up with an easier and more believable story or use another exchange if you'd like.

Bitcoin is supposed to be fungible but the key issue is that they could care less about closing one account so long as they conform to the regulations.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

By the way, if you wanna hear my opinion about new mixers, I think Sinbad.io will become a new chipmixer but it's still early to speculate anything.

Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

I think that if there is really a mixer that inspires trust, it's [banned mixer] without a doubt.

There are other good mixers like Unijoin, Coinomize, Mixtum and many other ones (on this forum), but these mixers that you mentioned and that I mentioned are centralized. They are not comparable with coinjoin like Whirlpool and Jointmarket which are trustless.

Quote from: Synchronice on August 24, 2023, 06:38:41 AM

Overall, crypto mixer business become a very hard and difficult business. It's hard to create a mixer and operate it as it is hard to trust a mixer.

If you have high amount of bitcoin that you can prove belongs to you and create a mixer, you will see how not easy a mixer can be created. What that is needed is money.

Synchronice

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Quote from: suzanne5223 on August 23, 2023, 01:07:42 PM

@m2017 It is not a good idea to totally trust a crypto tumbler service, it's better to also make use of 2-3 privacy services if want to have a solid clean BTC.
@SynchroniceThe long existence of a Bitcoin tumbler is not what is important if privacy or BTC cleaning is the top priority because the said mixer is still never shut down because they are yet to have an issue with the authority.

Bitcoin mixers are constantly under pressure, right? So, when mixer provides mixing service for years without scam accusation and manages to survive for years under the pressure, that automatically makes me to choose that over brand new one.
If privacy is your priority, then I would say that this service is absolutely trust based one because you never know whether you are an user of a compromised website or not. So, I don't understand what's your point? Logically, isn't it better to keen towards old, well-established service? By the way, if you wanna hear my opinion about new mixers, I think Sinbad.io will become a new chipmixer but it's still early to speculate anything.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 23, 2023, 04:57:19 PM

If time serves as a measure of reputation, then mixers such as the one mentioned in my signature inspire trust. But, at the same time solutions like Whirlpool exist, I think that, unless transaction costs is an obstacle to you, you shouldn't be spending time to decide. Do you value self-custody? If not, enjoy the comfort of the mixer. Just don't keep coins for long time there, as even if trustworthy, it can be shut down by authorities.

Have a read: Your options to having privacy in Bitcoin - and their tradeoffs.

I think that if there is really a mixer that inspires trust, it's [banned mixer] without a doubt. It has proven its reserves and operates since 2016. As I see, they were advertising at past but haven't advertised for decades, maybe that's the key why they managed to survive. Or maybe everyone hesitates to use them because they showed their addresses to some people in order to prove their reserves? I don't know.

Overall, crypto mixer business become a very hard and difficult business. It's hard to create a mixer and operate it as it is hard to trust a mixer.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: m2017 on August 22, 2023, 11:17:05 AM

To be honest, even I can't decide which bitcoin mixer (after closing chipmixer) I would be willing to use if needed. Which of the existing (and promoted on this forum) can be trusted (if bitcoin mixer can be trusted at all) and which one can be recommended by users (only real ones with real experience using BTC-mixers)?

If time serves as a measure of reputation, then mixers such as the one mentioned in my signature inspire trust. But, at the same time solutions like Whirlpool exist, I think that, unless transaction costs is an obstacle to you, you shouldn't be spending time to decide. Do you value self-custody? If not, enjoy the comfort of the mixer. Just don't keep coins for long time there, as even if trustworthy, it can be shut down by authorities.

Have a read: Your options to having privacy in Bitcoin - and their tradeoffs.

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Quote from: Synchronice on August 23, 2023, 11:08:21 AM

Quote from: m2017 on August 22, 2023, 11:17:05 AM

Quote from: mikementzer10 on August 22, 2023, 05:15:40 AM

Hello everyone, I need help to clean some bitcoins. Does anyone know about some bitcoin mixer?

Are you asking about bitcoin mixer? You are joking! Yes, here wherever you ~~poke~~ click (the user's signatures), you will definitely get to some bitcoin mixer.

To be honest, even I can't decide which bitcoin mixer (after closing chipmixer) I would be willing to use if needed. Which of the existing (and promoted on this forum) can be trusted (if bitcoin mixer can be trusted at all) and which one can be recommended by users (only real ones with real experience using BTC-mixers)?

It's not that hard I guess because recently I discovered that one of the oldest mixer out there is still alive and functioning without problems: [banned mixer].
I have no idea how that mixer managed to still be alive but if we keep in mind that they actually have more than 2000 bitcoins in reserve, then I bet this is the safest option out there. Another old mixer out there is [banned mixer] and seems they deliver this service without any problem, everything seems to be working smoothly.

@m2017 It is not a good idea to totally trust a crypto tumbler service, it's better to also make use of 2-3 privacy services if want to have a solid clean BTC.
@SynchroniceThe long existence of a Bitcoin tumbler is not what is important if privacy or BTC cleaning is the top priority because the said mixer is still never shut down because they are yet to have an issue with the authority.

Synchronice

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Quote from: m2017 on August 22, 2023, 11:17:05 AM

Quote from: mikementzer10 on August 22, 2023, 05:15:40 AM

Hello everyone, I need help to clean some bitcoins. Does anyone know about some bitcoin mixer?

Are you asking about bitcoin mixer? You are joking! Yes, here wherever you ~~poke~~ click (the user's signatures), you will definitely get to some bitcoin mixer.

To be honest, even I can't decide which bitcoin mixer (after closing chipmixer) I would be willing to use if needed. Which of the existing (and promoted on this forum) can be trusted (if bitcoin mixer can be trusted at all) and which one can be recommended by users (only real ones with real experience using BTC-mixers)?

It's not that hard I guess because recently I discovered that one of the oldest mixer out there is still alive and functioning without problems: [banned mixer].
I have no idea how that mixer managed to still be alive but if we keep in mind that they actually have more than 2000 bitcoins in reserve, then I bet this is the safest option out there. Another old mixer out there is [banned mixer] and seems they deliver this service without any problem, everything seems to be working smoothly.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 23, 2023, 10:01:03 AM

Are the post mix outputs on different addresses?

Yes. Each output is on its own address and addresses are never reused.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on August 23, 2023, 10:01:03 AM

Example is cycling a little over 0.5 BTC in the 0.01 pool to create 50 outputs of 0.01 BTC. Does this means that all the outputs are sent to 50 different addresses on your Samourai wallet?

Yes, although if you wanted to cycle 0.5 BTC, then the 0.05 pool would probably be a better choice.

Quote from: bitmover on August 23, 2023, 10:26:15 AM

you can just do 4,5, 6 hops... It is quite cheap to make an on chain transaction with 1-2 sats bytes.

I already made that point above. A number of simple "hops", with one input and one or two outputs is absolutely trivial to trace, and achieves literally nothing against blockchain analysis companies. And transaction with 1-2 sats/vbyte in fees aren't even being relayed at the moment, let alone confirmed.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 23, 2023, 02:39:38 AM

Quote from: bitmover on August 22, 2023, 11:56:25 AM

You can just make a few hops (transactions) to other addresses you have, to make that mixing undetected by exchanges.

Any exchange is more than capable of looking back a few transactions to see where the coins have come from. A far better option is to stop using centralized exchanges which attack the very essence of bitcoin by treating it as non-fungible, and will spy on you and censor you if they don't like what they find.

There are now plenty of decentralized exchanges, marketplaces, merchants, services, and so forth, out there which do not spy on you and do not promote the provable nonsense that some coins are "tainted". Use them instead, and stop worrying about whether some faceless third party thinks your coins are naughty.

I think this is true for most situations.

If you want to trade a 20usd for an Amazon card, you can certainly use a p2p solution, or some merchant or whatever...

But for people who are heavily invested in bitcoin and want to trade high values, this is not feasible.

Would you dare trade 1 or 2 btc in a p2p? This is very risky, and an exit scam is a real possibility. Additionally, people who live in developing countries mostly don't have an USD/EUR account, which narrow a lot p2p possibilities.

On the other hand, trading 2, 3, or even 5 bitcoin is quite secure in the biggest centralized exchanges.

Quote from: joniboini on August 23, 2023, 01:04:37 AM

Quote from: bitmover on August 22, 2023, 11:56:25 AM

What is more ironical about "clean" bitcoins, is that some exchanges consider bitcoins "tainted" after a recent mixing process.
You can just make a few hops (transactions) to other addresses you have, to make that mixing undetected by exchanges.

If I remember it correctly, somebody said their mixed coins were classified as tainted even though they already move them through some addresses. So some exchanges might trace back to more than just one past transaction to see if your coins are "bad" or not. Although if you use a mixer that doesn't really make it hard for exchanges to see that you use them is a bad idea to begin with.

you can just do 4,5, 6 hops... It is quite cheap to make an on chain transaction with 1-2 sats bytes.

There is a nice video about this, made by Andreas Antonopoulos
Bitcoin Q&A: Blacklists, Taint, and Wallet Fingerprinting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BILcJ3WtdLQ

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 23, 2023, 09:16:56 AM

If I had ten outputs of 0.01 BTC being coinjoined, for example, I can easily spend one of those right now and leave the other nine in Whirlpool to continue to be mixed.

Are the post mix outputs on different addresses?

Example is cycling a little over 0.5 BTC in the 0.01 pool to create 50 outputs of 0.01 BTC. Does this means that all the outputs are sent to 50 different addresses on your Samourai wallet?

Do not mind me, I have not used Samourai Whirlpool before and I just want to be certain about it. But I think that is what the outputs should be, to different addresses.

Topic: Bitcoin mixing (Read 515 times)