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Topic: Bitcoin needs Ethereum VM to reach its full potential — Web3 exec - page 2. (Read 533 times)

hero member
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https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-needs-ethereum-evm-botanix-founder

Botanix Labs founder Willem Schroé argues a “huge amount of value” from real-world assets will be captured on Bitcoin, provided it connects to the Ethereum Virtual Machine.

Mainstream Bitcoin adoption won’t happen until it bridges to the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) — the first point of entry for many real-world assets moving on-chain, a Web3 executive argues.


If that's true then it doesn't look for bitcoin. Might as well invest in ethereum...

Maybe you should put this thread in the Altcoin Discussions forum.
What the hell is an Ethereum virtual machine? I'm not an expert on Ethereum and I don't care that much about all the "new innovations" in the ETH blockchain, that end up being used for scams(ICOs, NFTs, you name it). I Googled it and it seems that EVM is simply an environment for ETH smart contracts. So this guy is basically shilling the EVM by adding Bitcoin to the conversation. Bitcoin is doing just fine without ETH, smart contracts and all that sh*t. I'm sure that Bitcoin will be alright in the future without any fancy "improvements" involving smart contracts.
This "huge amount of value from real-world assets will be captured in Bitcoin, provided it connects to EVM" statement is total nonsense.
How do you "capture" the value of a real world asset in Bitcoin?
hero member
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I agree with the Botanix Labs founder, Bitcoin might be the anchor crypto coin around here...but the EVMs do bring in some indirect traffic to Bitcoin thereby complimenting it's existence. Am pretty sure the man used a long cut in trying to bring out the point of dependance in the crypto ecosystem being the road to success aka no coin is an island  Cool

Though of late EVMs have been terrible in the security department, hope this proposed bridging of the two doesn't make a bad name for BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

In construction and architecture, the foundations of a building are generally less intricate or elaborate than whatever structure is built upon it.  Simple and robust foundations means there's less that can go wrong.  Particularly with software and networking.  That's considered good design.
maybe that's true. i understand that something like TCPIP is not as complicated as something like ChatGPT. But chatgpt couldn't function without the internet. But with regard to LN and Bitcoin, you got something that feels like its trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Bitcoin wasn't invented with LN in mind. People tried to adapt some features of Bitcoin to create LN but i'm not sure if all those features were enough to make it work perfectly. ChatGPT didn't suffer any limitations due to TCPIP. Then you get into the Millineium Tower.

that's what happens when the foundation isnt really sufficient to support what people are trying to build on it:  Shocked

San Francisco ‘Leaning Tower’ residents forced to pay $6.8M for failed fix
https://nypost.com/2023/10/03/san-francisco-leaning-tower-residents-forced-to-pay-6-8m-for-failed-fix/

Having go back and fix the foundation so it can support what you thought it could support but were wrong...


LN fundamentally is not complex.
neither is artificial intelligence fundamentally. just make a machine behave like a human. the devil can be in all the little details.

ether Need a Supply Cap .
i'm waiting for bitcoin to outpace ethereum in price since bitcoin's supply is having a hard cap.
jr. member
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ether Need a Supply Cap .
legendary
Activity: 2254
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A Bitcoiner chooses. A slave obeys.
I think that Bitcoin is fitting in its role of being a decentralized store of value quite nicely. There is no need to to turn Bitcoin into another Ethereum alternative. Not only would that destabilize the trust and value of Bitcoin, it would lead a large part of the community to give up, after many years, on Bitcoin. The only possible reason for updating Bitcoin is to improve existing aspects rather than to redraw the entire concept.

Bitcoin concept has not led us wrong after all these years, so why change things that are not broken?
sr. member
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It's hard for many people to accept gbs fact that Bitcoin can't be everything, this is why I am investing in other projects as well, Bitcoin is good as it is and doing more can open the door to centralized manipulation, I believe that is Ethereum was never a smart contract project and just have one thing, in particular, it will still be a successful project and I started hating on it when the team decides to leave proof of work for PoS, that's when I accepted that Ethereum is now fully centralized.

I honestly don't like how Bitcoin Ordinals are running on Bitcoin still, the BRC-20 idea is never meant to be live, I am just waiting for the bull market to prove some people wrong that having Ordinals on Bitcoin is a very bad idea, don't get me wrong, I like new ideas and if Ordinals become successful in the next bull market you will see how it will be near impossible to do any Bitcoin transaction for a long period until the Ordinals isn't hyping anymore.

Bitcoin is good just the way it is and it's purpose is to be a decentralized network that people can trust, it's less of a payment solution to me, it's useful for payment options too but the main goal was decentralization.
legendary
Activity: 4424
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And as for the topic as a whole, people have been claiming for years now that Bitcoin supposedly needs X, Y or Z feature to be considered a success.  But these people are usually just trying to sell something and pretend that their feature is actually useful.  Some ideas are merely a "solution looking for a problem to solve".

doomad talking about himself. he loves promoting other things as solutions even when the things he promotes have and cause more problems
legendary
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Leave no FUD unchallenged
how could something built on top of something else be more complicated than the thing it is being built on top of. that seems like incorrect design and structure. the thing that serves as the base should be the more complicated thing.

In construction and architecture, the foundations of a building are generally less intricate or elaborate than whatever structure is built upon it.  Simple and robust foundations means there's less that can go wrong.  Particularly with software and networking.  That's considered good design.

And as for the topic as a whole, people have been claiming for years now that Bitcoin supposedly needs X, Y or Z feature to be considered a success.  But these people are usually just trying to sell something and pretend that their feature is actually useful.  Some ideas are merely a "solution looking for a problem to solve".


//EDIT:  I guess franky1 got tired of making shit up in the recent LN thread.  Now he's here to lie some more in this topic.  Dishonest troll.

sr. member
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https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-needs-ethereum-evm-botanix-founder

Botanix Labs founder Willem Schroé argues a “huge amount of value” from real-world assets will be captured on Bitcoin, provided it connects to the Ethereum Virtual Machine.

Mainstream Bitcoin adoption won’t happen until it bridges to the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) — the first point of entry for many real-world assets moving on-chain, a Web3 executive argues.


If that's true then it doesn't look for bitcoin. Might as well invest in ethereum...

Ethereum has even less mainstream adoption than Bitcoin. Complex computations are possible on Bitcoin with BitVM. Bitcoin doesn't really need to be a world computer at the base layer.

Spiderchain, which this guy is promoting, is a layer 2 which doesn't require a fork. He is free to work on this EVM bridge but like with ETH and all of its clones I expect it to attract many scammers and junk projects.
legendary
Activity: 4424
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it doesnt sound like LN in practice. because LN FAILS many security and economic integrity checks in those area's. why do you think they are inventing so many SaaS, factory channels, watchtowers and other centralised hubs renting inbound liquidity to cover up the lack in secure signature control of funds..
yes it sounds like SOME of the ideas from 6years ago with promises spouted about LN maybe achieving those ideals,, but LN failed to meet promises, hense needing them to scrap the network which devs admit they cant fix the flaws of, and instead start afresh in a different manner that actually does things securely
LN sounds more complicated than bitcoin itself. imagine that! the thing that confuses me about LN is why should something or how could something built on top of something else be more complicated than the thing it is being built on top of. that seems like incorrect design and structure. the thing that serves as the base should be the more complicated thing. but with LN on top of BTC, i dont think it is. its actually reversed which is not good but what are you gonna do?   Shocked

LN fundamentally is not complex. .. infact there are soo many simplistic things to it, it has become rife with bugs/flaws and methods to scam other people
its instead MADE TO BE complex for users, to make it LOOK technical
its instead MADE TO BE complex to sucker people into handing BTC to server and then be rented some msats for a session.. its MADE to be complex to lease out a watchtower service.. its MADE to be complex to sucker people into using their proprietary litewallets
do you really think these LN lovers who sponsored core devs, done it out of charity/altruism.. no. its so they can get ROI out of syphoning funds from users that use it..
blockstream did not get hundreds of millions in donations. they received investments from corporations. corporations that will make their money back if they can sucker users to use their prefered middlemen services and move away from using the open bitcoin network


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not all subetworks need to have a "archive forever" chain, some could have it where it blockchans for 6 months and at the 6th month they data is agregated into a utxoset and at the 12th month milestone they hash the 6th month utxoset as a milestoned history and then prune the 6 month chain and just keep a utxoset of those 6thmonths. then repeat process every 6 months so that there is only 6 months of archive chain and a ball of utxo's as a preimage of the rest of history at Xmonth previous state
wouldn't that also be a solution to BTC's growing blockchain size to keep it trimmed down to a max level? if not then i'm not sure how it could be a solution there either. but i think it goes back to the issue of you can't have something more complex built on top of something simpler. that's reversed design.

well it can be made possible that one of the coinbase outputs is a hash of a utxoset and for 6 months each block contains that hash of a milstone point before generating a new hash for the next milestone . and then by having 6months of the hash proving a fileset of utxos. then users can just download that fileset, make sure it matches the hashes which have confirmed for a length of time and so dont need the full blockchain previous

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as for different niches
EG starbucks can have its own customer network. offering its giftcard balance system and loyalty points
hold that thought!

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whereby instead of locking all funds into one crappy subnetwork and then splintering off all balance into multiple channels of that one crappy subnetwork.
but at least they can send bitcoin to anyone for anything. and buy anything that bitcoin can buy, including coffee.

Quote
people lock funds into several networks before entering the networks and then having balance in different networks, doing different things
that's not what people want to do though. lock some of their funds into a starbucks network and some of it in a mcdonalds network and so on. then when some amazing pizza deal comes along they can't do it because their bitcoin is locked into the wrong networks.  Shocked

you do know most LN channels end up serving only one avenue/path of a service where using a different channel to pay a certain service comes with different costs.. so users usually just rebalance to put value into which ever channels they intend to spend the most with, with whichever service they use the most
EG if they mainly pay into exchanges they put most funds into a LN channel that has the cheapest path to an exchange. and not put funds into a expensive path to an exchange. .. and if they want to buy coffee they put coffee amounts of a month budget into the channel thats cheaper to reach the starbucks channel
taking that one step further why need to put all funds into a LN lock and then distribute to preferred/unpreferred channels in that one network. when you can do the same balance/account utility matching over different networks, thus not subservient to one crappy network that doesnt like you closing channels

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and have true atomic swaps between networks, which even LN after 6 years cant manage to fix at scale even within their own network
i would imagine atomic swaps are not free and you probably get raked over the coals in transaction fees in some cases. but if your ideal view of things includes free atomic swaps then maybe...

imagine atomic swaps as decentralised exchanges(dex) then run some thoughts through some scenarios

hint: if A wants to swap his locked LTC for B's locked BTC then the EXCHANGE RATE would be rated to cover fees
sr. member
Activity: 1190
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it doesnt sound like LN in practice. because LN FAILS many security and economic integrity checks in those area's. why do you think they are inventing so many SaaS, factory channels, watchtowers and other centralised hubs renting inbound liquidity to cover up the lack in secure signature control of funds..
yes it sounds like SOME of the ideas from 6years ago with promises spouted about LN maybe achieving those ideals,, but LN failed to meet promises, hense needing them to scrap the network which devs admit they cant fix the flaws of, and instead start afresh in a different manner that actually does things securely
LN sounds more complicated than bitcoin itself. imagine that! the thing that confuses me about LN is why should something or how could something built on top of something else be more complicated than the thing it is being built on top of. that seems like incorrect design and structure. the thing that serves as the base should be the more complicated thing. but with LN on top of BTC, i dont think it is. its actually reversed which is not good but what are you gonna do?   Shocked

Quote
not all subetworks need to have a "archive forever" chain, some could have it where it blockchans for 6 months and at the 6th month they data is agregated into a utxoset and at the 12th month milestone they hash the 6th month utxoset as a milestoned history and then prune the 6 month chain and just keep a utxoset of those 6thmonths. then repeat process every 6 months so that there is only 6 months of archive chain and a ball of utxo's as a preimage of the rest of history at Xmonth previous state
wouldn't that also be a solution to BTC's growing blockchain size to keep it trimmed down to a max level? if not then i'm not sure how it could be a solution there either. but i think it goes back to the issue of you can't have something more complex built on top of something simpler. that's reversed design.

Quote
as for different niches
EG starbucks can have its own customer network. offering its giftcard balance system and loyalty points
hold that thought!

Quote
whereby instead of locking all funds into one crappy subnetwork and then splintering off all balance into multiple channels of that one crappy subnetwork.
but at least they can send bitcoin to anyone for anything. and buy anything that bitcoin can buy, including coffee.

Quote
people lock funds into several networks before entering the networks and then having balance in different networks, doing different things
that's not what people want to do though. lock some of their funds into a starbucks network and some of it in a mcdonalds network and so on. then when some amazing pizza deal comes along they can't do it because their bitcoin is locked into the wrong networks.  Shocked


Quote
and have true atomic swaps between networks, which even LN after 6 years cant manage to fix at scale even within their own network
i would imagine atomic swaps are not free and you probably get raked over the coals in transaction fees in some cases. but if your ideal view of things includes free atomic swaps then maybe...
sr. member
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Mainstream Bitcoin adoption won’t happen until it bridges to the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) — the first point of entry for many real-world assets moving on-chain, a Web3 executive argues.[/i]
Bitcoin blockchain has lower average transaction fee (on-chain) than Ethereum blockchain, $1.22 compares to $1.55
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#alltime
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-transactionfees.html#alltime

Two charts also show Ethereum blockchain has more spikes (more expensive) in average transaction fee than Bitcoin blockchain.

Bitcoin Lightning Network has much lower transaction fee so if you need cheaper transaction fee, use Bitcoin Lightning Network. Ethereum blockchain is not cheaper so it is not a good choice.

Transaction Fees On Bitcoin Lightning Network Are 1,000 Times Cheaper Than Visa And MasterCard
legendary
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Quote
the thing is, once you lock bitcoin into a complex multisig with a method to unlock under a condition. where participants can monitor and agree/disagree to sign an unlock in a clear way offchain.. anyone can then create any subnetwork they like.. and yes this includes web3 virtual services. they dont need to use ethereums set up. they can use their own method
that sounds alot like... lightning network! which is something that i believe you have not been a fan of in the past. would Spiderchain or Drivechain be a replacement for LN maybe? so you could get behind it  Shocked

it doesnt sound like LN in practice. because LN FAILS many security and economic integrity checks in those area's. why do you think they are inventing so many SaaS, factory channels, watchtowers and other centralised hubs renting inbound liquidity to cover up the lack in secure signature control of funds..
yes it sounds like SOME of the ideas from 6years ago with promises spouted about LN maybe achieving those ideals,, but LN failed to meet promises, hense needing them to scrap the network which devs admit they cant fix the flaws of, and instead start afresh in a different manner that actually does things securely
emphasis the locking and unlocking of a complex multisig is something all offchain systems sound like. as a basic gateway into and out of those systems.. but LN fails in many of those areas

as for what option of data archiving/utilising. well there are many options. and there should be many. all offering different niche's, offering different services functionality. not just one centralised system proposed as "the solution"
not all subetworks need to have a "archive forever" chain, some could have it where it blockchans for 6 months and at the 6th month they data is agregated into a utxoset and at the 12th month milestone they hash the 6th month utxoset as a milestoned history and then prune the 6 month chain and just keep a utxoset of those 6thmonths. then repeat process every 6 months so that there is only 6 months of archive chain and a ball of utxo's as a preimage of the rest of history at Xmonth previous state

as for different niches
EG starbucks can have its own customer network. offering its giftcard balance system and loyalty points

whereby instead of locking all funds into one crappy subnetwork and then splintering off all balance into multiple channels of that one crappy subnetwork. people lock funds into several networks before entering the networks and then having balance in different networks, doing different things

and have true atomic swaps between networks, which even LN after 6 years cant manage to fix at scale even within their own network

Bitcoin is doing great in it's category — it definitely doesn't have to do everything.
I mean, sure. Let's adopt a conservative approach when developing the main layer,
conservative in politics means delay, ignore and suppress the constituents needs but push through fast the needs of the corporations and centralised services without consent of the constituents
EG uk conservatives give tax breaks for the elites but removes benefits from the poor(the majority of population)
hero member
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Bitcoin is doing great in it's category — it definitely doesn't have to do everything. You want blockchain-ized RWA? Do it on other chains. Bitcoin's job is to just be simple(send and receive BTC) and just be secure and decentralized as hell, without any unnecessary bloat that could bring in problems.
These people want bitcoin to become the pinnacle of stores-of-value in the investment category, hence why they are pushing for more scalable opportunities cause on its own bitcoin doesn't need to really employ anybody's help as you said. But we gotta be realistic in here and see that bitcoin, great as a payment system as it is, still needs to get that little bit of innovation every now and then for it to really flourish. Investment's what made it popular after all so it just makes sense for people to seek more opportunities for it to become more accessible.
sr. member
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Looking at their website[1], it looks like Botanix already do that by creating their own blockchain which support EVM[2] and people can bridge their Bitcoin to their blockchain[3]. So IMO his statement is just a way to promote their blockchain.

[3] docs.botanixlabs.xyz/botanix-labs/get-to-know-botanix/introductory-concepts/how-does-botanix-work

i think the article was misleading they are not bridging over to ethereum. they're just trying to create a bitcoin EVM that sits on top of bitcoin and doesn't have any links to ethereum at all.

Botanix is actually an intermediary that makes it possible for people to use decentralized applications on Bitcoin. That means that you will be able to use decentralized exchanges (DEX), lend and borrow money, trade non-fungible tokens (NFTs) and so on. Things like this have been possible on Ethereum but Botanix is unlocking the same world for Bitcoin. A whole new world of decentralized finance opens up!

i'm not so sure i would trust someone's project like this. i mean if you locked up your btc and they just pulled the rug out from under you you might end up with stuck bitcoin. i dont know!  Shocked


I mean, sure. Let's adopt a conservative approach when developing the main layer, but why not taking advantage of all the resources used to secure it and mess with any potentially problematic idea in a separate layer (i.e., sidechain)? Everybody's happy then, because the main layer remains secure, and people still demand bitcoin to create stuff in sidechains without selling it for altcoins.

so are you against Bip-300? i'm assuming so  Shocked

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There is already that sidechain, it is called Rootstock.
you like rootstock because if it has any problem then that doesn't affect bitcoin, i'm assuming.
legendary
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Bitcoin is doing great in it's category — it definitely doesn't have to do everything.
I mean, sure. Let's adopt a conservative approach when developing the main layer, but why not taking advantage of all the resources used to secure it and mess with any potentially problematic idea in a separate layer (i.e., sidechain)? Everybody's happy then, because the main layer remains secure, and people still demand bitcoin to create stuff in sidechains without selling it for altcoins.

There is already that sidechain, it is called Rootstock.
legendary
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https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-needs-ethereum-evm-botanix-founder

Botanix Labs founder Willem Schroé argues a “huge amount of value” from real-world assets will be captured on Bitcoin, provided it connects to the Ethereum Virtual Machine.

Mainstream Bitcoin adoption won’t happen until it bridges to the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) — the first point of entry for many real-world assets moving on-chain, a Web3 executive argues.


If that's true then it doesn't look for bitcoin. Might as well invest in ethereum...

Looking at their website[1], it looks like Botanix already do that by creating their own blockchain which support EVM[2] and people can bridge their Bitcoin to their blockchain[3]. So IMO his statement is just a way to promote their blockchain.

[1] botanixlabs.xyz/en/home
[2] botanixlabs.xyz/en/faqs
[3] docs.botanixlabs.xyz/botanix-labs/get-to-know-botanix/introductory-concepts/how-does-botanix-work
copper member
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https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-needs-ethereum-evm-botanix-founder

Botanix Labs founder Willem Schroé argues a “huge amount of value” from real-world assets will be captured on Bitcoin, provided it connects to the Ethereum Virtual Machine.

Mainstream Bitcoin adoption won’t happen until it bridges to the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) — the first point of entry for many real-world assets moving on-chain, a Web3 executive argues.


If that's true then it doesn't look for bitcoin. Might as well invest in ethereum...

The statement that "Bitcoin needs Ethereum virtual machine to reach its potential" is a perspective and opinion that might not be universally agreed upon and this idea is not widely accepted. Most of the Bitcoin enthusiast prefer Bitcoin to remain true to its original design by Satoshi Nakamoto, valuing its distinctive features. Introducing interoperability system between Bitcoin and Ethereum block chains could potentially raise concerns about security vulnerabilities and impact its credibility, as it might expose the network to hacking attacks.
hero member
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It's true having a side chain or layer 3 will increase the Bitcoin adoption because every software or application will have Bitcoin and it's easy to connect it just like in Ethereum where you can directly connect with Metamask etc.

But the purpose of Bitcoin is as a currency, not for software or application usage.

Feel free to use any other coins or tokens for software or application usage e.g. ETH, Solana, etc, but it's not for Bitcoin.
hero member
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I'd agree. There are already several threads here on bitcointalk asking if there is any way we could have real BTC on EVM, unfortunatley so far there is none or are in development. People have no trust in pegged aseets, and it's for right reasons, so things like WBTC are discarded automatically.

If we could get OG BTC to EVM, it'll be best of both worlds.
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