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Topic: Bitcoin not so anonymous? - page 2. (Read 891 times)

copper member
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Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 06, 2017, 09:00:36 AM
#28
Don’t be paranoid, but take precautions.  I use Bitcoin for whatever I want to, nobody knows how much I have, and I sleep quietly at night.  Of course, I don’t engage in criminal activity—that’s outside my threat model.  I just want—no, I demand privacy; and I have it, at the expense of some large effort.  It’s worthwhile!

Thanks, I appreciate all the information and links. I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. I've always been scared of what kind of files the blockchain analysis companies already have on us. I can't for the life of me remember many of the transactions I've made with bitcoins over the years, and it's scary to think that Chainalysis knows more about them than I do! :-[

When bitcoins were trading in the $200s in a seemingly neverending bear market, none of this seemed to matter. Now that we're trading above $10k: life comes at you fast....

Happy to help.  I wish I had a better and easier answer at the ready.

What you say reminds me of thoughts I’ve had over who has recordings of my telephone calls, or copies of long-past (unencrypted) e-mails.  My own communications, as of which I myself have no record outside scattered memories—with those, it’s impossible to be certain of who has or doesn’t have what.  My calls to my fondly remembered old ex-girlfriend in $YEAR; who may have archival recordings of those?  I think it’s probable that some database has it all.  The situation with the blockchain is worse, since it is public and permanent; although other data which could be cross-correlated with it may be another “who recorded what when?” situation, depending on what you did and how in terms of buying, spending, etc.  At least, you also have a copy of the blockchain.

Looking a few steps further:

Do you surf the Web without Tor or similar measures?  Do you remember every website you’ve ever visited?  Do you remember every search term you have ever typed into Google?  (People tell Google secrets which they would never tell their spouses, best friends, clergy, or psychiatrists.  When they have trouble sleeping, people openly tell Google their midnight fears and fantasies.  The Google search is the closest thing to mind-reading technology yet invented.  “I’m feeling lucky.”)

Somewhere, there is definitely a record of these things; or somewheres plural, not only in government agencies.  Inasmuch as this data may oft be in the hands of private companies such as Google or your ISP, it is used for “marketing” purposes.  You are eyeballs and a piece of meat.

In a similar vein, do you carry a mobile phone?  (I ask this rhetorically; I would not suggest that you answer such questions on a public forum!)  If you do, then somewhere, there is a database which knows precisely where you were physically located on, say, the date of 2010-03-09 at 10:04 in the morning.  Do you know exactly where you were on 2010-03-09 at 10:04 in the morning?  Somebody does—well, a computer somewhere does.  If you were to ever become interesting (in the sense of a “person of interest”), then a wetware analyst could look back at that years or decades later, and correlate it with other available information.  That includes, but is not limited to, the calls and texts you made with that phone (metadata and/or content).  It also includes the locations and communications of persons carrying phones around you.  Do you remember who was near you and whom you associated with on 2010-03-09 at 10:04 in the morning?  Somewhere, there is a database which remembers that.

Such is the meaning of dragnet mass surveillance.  It is the total destruction of even the most basic dignity.  It respects nothing sacred, leaves no part of you untouched and inviolate, admits no freedom.  It fears no gods, but deifies itself with omniscience and omnipotence.  It is an invisible collar around your neck, from your cradle to your grave.  “If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.”  No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.  I am a man, not a worm; therefore, my life is none of your business.

My location on 2010-03-09 at 10:04 in the morning, and my activities, communications, relationships, “social graph”, finances, reading habits, and innermost thoughts, are all none of your business.

Let these thoughts sink into your gut, and you will begin to understand why I care about privacy.  Most people don’t get it.  Encrypted e-mail, anonymized Internet, cash at the store, and antipathy for GoogFaceTwit?  People will look at you funny, at best (and thus the first rule of privacy: be discreet about privacy).  But once you start to think the full history of your blockchain transactions, your credit cards, your bank accounts, your phone calls, your locational information, your e-mails, your web surfing, your web searches, etc., etc.—well, then privacy begins to make sense.  It even makes sense to expend effort and endure inconvenience, to obtain privacy.  Actually, when you begin to understand these matters, you realize that the lack of privacy is outright insane.

Thanks for thinking about these issues.  Everybody who cares about privacy can make the world a tiny bit of a better place.  And good luck with securing your Bitcoin privacy.  Bitcoin has great promise as a force for freedom, which necessarily encompasses privacy; but thus far, its tools are as yet imperfect, and the privacy part is very difficult to get right.  At least, you certainly have more control of your own destiny with Bitcoin than you do with banks and credit cards.  Consider how your ownership of your private keys means nobody can help you if you lose them.  Here likewise, Bitcoin gives you the power over yourself, and thus the responsibility for yourself—two sides of the same coin!
hero member
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December 06, 2017, 03:29:22 AM
#27
Don’t be paranoid, but take precautions.  I use Bitcoin for whatever I want to, nobody knows how much I have, and I sleep quietly at night.  Of course, I don’t engage in criminal activity—that’s outside my threat model.  I just want—no, I demand privacy; and I have it, at the expense of some large effort.  It’s worthwhile!

Thanks, I appreciate all the information and links. I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. I've always been scared of what kind of files the blockchain analysis companies already have on us. I can't for the life of me remember many of the transactions I've made with bitcoins over the years, and it's scary to think that Chainalysis knows more about them than I do! Embarrassed

When bitcoins were trading in the $200s in a seemingly neverending bear market, none of this seemed to matter. Now that we're trading above $10k: life comes at you fast....
copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 05, 2017, 11:36:54 PM
#26
I guess they could identify you only once you cashed out. Other than that, your identity is safe (unless you have verified your identify in an online wallet, of course);

WRONG.  For but one of a hundred other ways your identities could be linked, even if you mix with CoinJoin, check out this pretty picture from a research paper I referenced in my earlier post on this thread:


Stop giving dangerously bad advice!

What I was always wondering about was how those mixing services work? Do they just send the transaction that you want to send to eg 10000 different addresses before sending it to the destination address? So it would be a huge amount of work to check all the addresses? I cant imagine how else they could make a transaction non trackable on Bitcoins blockchain. But this would also not be doable because of the transaction cost and speed. Maybe someone can explain it to me?

You ask some reasonable questions.  More reasonable still would be the question of how to actually protect your privacy.  That last is a difficult question.  Strong anonymity (or more properly, the transaction unlinkability required for strong privacy) requires considerable expertise; there does not currently exist any point-and-click solution which will make that happen for you.

I’ve been trying to write up a little post on the basics; but it takes time, since unlike some people here, I don’t simply toss out substance-free gab to hear myself talk.  It is a complicated topic; and I know that if I give the wrong advice, people could get hurt.  I may or may not finish what I was writing.  Meanwhile, here are some notes:

I observe in brief that I have never used a Bitcoin mixer site.  I am a privacy activist.  I have exclusively connected to the Internet through Tor for some years now—just on principle.  I’ve been intrigued by the potential of private digital currency since Chaumian Digicash was still a thing; that was a few decades ago.  And I have never used a Bitcoin mixer site.  That might suggest to you something about those Bitcoin mixers.

Some people here need to read this paragraph thrice, from the newbie-level introduction at https://bitcoin.org/en/you-need-to-know#anonymous (italics added):

I don't have much need for anonymity, but not having everyone from your nosy neighbors to random thieves knowing all your financial activity is both a matter of human dignity and basic safety.

There exist corrupt and oppressive governments.  There also exist robbers, stalkers, identity thieves, and kidnappers who are increasingly sophisticated in their exploitation of digital information sources.  I think it is only a matter of time before organized crime catches on in a big way to the goldmine of useful information which can be linked through blockchain tracing; perhaps they have already, and I just don’t yet know it.  All these threats can work retroactively, too.  Every transaction you commit to the blockchain is there forever.

Don’t be paranoid, but take precautions.  I use Bitcoin for whatever I want to, nobody knows how much I have, and I sleep quietly at night.  Of course, I don’t engage in criminal activity—that’s outside my threat model.  I just want—no, I demand privacy; and I have it, at the expense of some large effort.  It’s worthwhile!
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 258
December 05, 2017, 09:45:26 PM
#25
The IRS has stated that recently they can track down people who are making a profit of Bitcoin without claiming it on their tax return. I wonder if the Core Engineers will start to look at ways to keep Bitcoin anonymous from prying eyes of the IRS and other Governments?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
I guess they could identify you only once you cashed out. Other than that, your identity is safe (unless you have verified your identify in an online wallet, of course); Honestly, man there are lots of ways to stay away from the eyes of the FEDies. You just have to be creative.  Grin
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
December 05, 2017, 07:48:39 PM
#24
My guess always was that Bitcoin is anonymous as long as there wont be a link of your address to your person. As a distributed (open) ledger, all transactions are visible for everyone, so whatever one spends or receives can be seen by everyone. But if you for example always do your business from an internet cafe or other public places, nobody can link your entry in the ledger to your person. What I was always wondering about was how those mixing services work? Do they just send the transaction that you want to send to eg 10000 different addresses before sending it to the destination address? So it would be a huge amount of work to check all the addresses? I cant imagine how else they could make a transaction non trackable on Bitcoins blockchain. But this would also not be doable because of the transaction cost and speed. Maybe someone can explain it to me?
copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 05, 2017, 07:13:08 PM
#23
bitcoin being decentralized crypto currency  using internet connection I know reagarding to my knowledge bitcoin is anonymous currency, so becareful your bitcoin investment if you are careless have possible to lost your bitcoin especiall in your wallet if forget the private keys or password.

Did you flunk the Turing test?

How did you get past the CAPTCHA to log in?
full member
Activity: 2590
Merit: 228
December 05, 2017, 06:42:35 PM
#22
bitcoin being decentralized crypto currency  using internet connection I know reagarding to my knowledge bitcoin is anonymous currency, so becareful your bitcoin investment if you are careless have possible to lost your bitcoin especiall in your wallet if forget the private keys or password.
full member
Activity: 759
Merit: 105
December 05, 2017, 06:36:41 PM
#21
Bitcoin is not really anonymous because it has a ledger recording all of our transactions and everyone could look up to our own bitcoin addresses but not our real information. Once they know who that person is using that address, you are doomed i guess.  Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 756
Merit: 252
December 05, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
#20
The IRS has stated that recently they can track down people who are making a profit of Bitcoin without claiming it on their tax return. I wonder if the Core Engineers will start to look at ways to keep Bitcoin anonymous from prying eyes of the IRS and other Governments?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Bitcoin has never being anonymous, especially now if you buy your coins from an exchange or you use a payment method that reveals your identity, also if you try to cashout your bitcoin you are going to need to reveal your identity so there is nothing to do.
legendary
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December 05, 2017, 06:28:03 PM
#19
The IRS has stated that recently they can track down people who are making a profit of Bitcoin without claiming it on their tax return. I wonder if the Core Engineers will start to look at ways to keep Bitcoin anonymous from prying eyes of the IRS and other Governments?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

I'm sure that making bitcoin more private is probably on the Core dev team agenda, but I doubt that is something that has a high priority level. Bitcoin is somewhat anonymous, since your identity is not tied to your wallet or address, but of course we all know that everything is public in the blockchain, so by the time someone knows you are the owner of an address, they can track down every transaction you make. They won't know what they are, unless they also manage "to ID" the other addresses, but they can see how much you have there, and how much you have been spending.

You can of course keep changing addresses, and do your best not to get identified by a particular address, so I'm not really worried with this. As far as the IRS goes, don't forget that regulation is important for bitcoin, in order for it to become legit and get more adoption. I have no plans in evading taxes, and I don't think anyone should do that.

Anonymity is important, but I hope the Core team is focused on the scalability issues, and in developing off-chain solutions like the lightning network. That is the very important update that we are all waiting. Anyway since segwit provides many off-chain solutions, I'm sure that it will be easy to increase the privacy of bitcoin transactions.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
December 05, 2017, 06:27:37 PM
#18
The IRS has stated that recently they can track down people who are making a profit of Bitcoin without claiming it on their tax return. I wonder if the Core Engineers will start to look at ways to keep Bitcoin anonymous from prying eyes of the IRS and other Governments?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Every one already know that bitcoin is only pseudo anonymous.So,every transaction is registered in a public ledger.So,if the government officials want to track your transactions,they could easily do it.

And if you want to be safe from the radar of the government,you could better use mixer services where you would be given new bitcoins so that no one would be able to trace your transactions and identify you.I think that's the only possible option left to use bitcoins safely being untraced.
copper member
Activity: 630
Merit: 2614
If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!
December 05, 2017, 05:45:18 PM
#17
In the Twitter/TL;DR world, so few people actually read nowadays.  Who needs it?  Let’s see a picture of how pretty a Bitcoin transaction graph is!


That’s from 2014, from a blog post by bitcointalk user organofcorti, as discussed on this forum.  Anybody who hasn’t seen it is a n00b.

Now, to correct a few bits of misinformation:

Bitcoin itself is anonymous. But government is always finding a way to monitor transactions like forcing exchanges to comply with their regulations which is Anti-Money Laudering and Know Your Customer(AML/KYC) policy.

As far as my knowledge is, I knew that bitcoin was totally anonymous but governments always tried a way to track in the about all the transactions in bitcoin.

Yes, “AML”/“KYC” is poison for privacy and freedom.  But that’s not even relevant here:  Governments and exchanges are not the only ones who can trace Bitcoin transactions.

Instead of shooting off your mouth on an Internet forum, you could try your own blockchain tracing with BlockSci, available as an open-source project.  First, read the paper.

Also have a look at this paper on how merchants and third-party web trackers can correlate web cookies, names, physical addresses, etc. with blockchain data.

There are also some neat papers on attacking the privacy of Bitcoin mixers; but if you want me to assemble a bibliography for you, you’ll need to start paying me.

Correlating “KYC” identity data in an exchange is the easiest way to identify Bitcoin users.  Obviously.  But it’s not the only way; and if you think it is, then you are in for trouble at some point.  As is anybody who takes your forum advice.  Don’t mislead others with careless, foolish, and factually incorrect talk of Bitcoin being “anonymous”.

P.S.:

It is nice to see a Newbie's fight! Lmao

I think bitcoin is anonymous to a certain extent,
Stop thinking.  It is dangerous to your health.

Anyway, bitcoin has been created to be ANONYMOUS, it is not working as it was before because a lot of people started to use it.

Because it has the records of all the transactions on all over the blockchain, it does not means that it is not anonymous, because it is the public record that makes the blockchain be legit, that has been created to prevent the double spend and all the scammers, and of course, the issue of the coin.

If you want a 100% anonymous coin, go and buy monero, everytime that you need to buy something with bitcoin, you must put your details and ID's almost everytime, so yes, now it is not anonymous, but it was created for it.


I may perhaps consider your opinion and explain to you why you’re wrong, if you could explain to me how many “newbies” have longstanding familiarity with the academic literature on Bitcoin transaction tracing.

Also, I could argue Zcash vs. Monero; but that’s offtopic in a Bitcoin forum.

Also, I think my “first fight” was over here.  Though it’s tough to say; I’ve been busy.  There are just so many “ill-informed nincompoops who overestimate their own competence [and] enjoy voicing opinions to which they are not entitled”, to quote myself from that first link.

Now, stop claiming that Bitcoin be “anonymous”, or I will taunt you again.
member
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December 05, 2017, 05:13:12 PM
#16
Bitcoin is not anonymous, not anymore. Transactions are transparent so anyone can check when and from who certain address has received bitcoins. As far as I know, the introduction of "confidential transaction" will help us to solve this problem partially. What are confidential transactions? The information about sent amount of money will be encrypted so only sender and recipient will know the exact amount which was sent.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 05, 2017, 04:48:16 PM
#15
It is nice to see a Newbie's fight! Lmao

I think bitcoin is anonymous to a certain extent,
Stop thinking.  It is dangerous to your health.

Anyway, bitcoin has been created to be ANONYMOUS, it is not working as it was before because a lot of people started to use it.

Because it has the records of all the transactions on all over the blockchain, it does not means that it is not anonymous, because it is the public record that makes the blockchain be legit, that has been created to prevent the double spend and all the scammers, and of course, the issue of the coin.

If you want a 100% anonymous coin, go and buy monero, everytime that you need to buy something with bitcoin, you must put your details and ID's almost everytime, so yes, now it is not anonymous, but it was created for it.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 101
December 05, 2017, 04:39:22 PM
#14
The above fact does indicate that bitkoyn is not as anonymous as it was thought. Therefore, the last coins that detached from bitcoin, namely bitcoin brilliant, have a greater degree of confidentiality than the original bitcoin. So, in it in an open for general review magazine blockchein the data about coins in a purse and their balance are closed. This greatly reduces the likelihood of hacker attacks on wallets with large amounts in the crypto currency. If bitkoyn does not solve the issue with increasing confidentiality in the near future, people will simply switch to other coins, in particular, coins that have separated from him in recent months.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 501
December 05, 2017, 04:31:52 PM
#13
It is not anonymous, i dont know why you all are saying that is, in fact, it is not. Maybe it was created to develop a new idea for organizing the money, but it does not means that it was just created to be anonymous.

If you are looking for an anonymous coin, then monero/zcash,/zencash are the ones who you should be using instead of bitcoin. Deeponion is crap, so dont use if you dont want to lose your money.

It does not means that it is not anonymous because of that, because you can still use a multi signature wallet and no one will be able to track your addreses or your money.

Anyone can track how coins are being transferred between addresses
hero member
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December 05, 2017, 04:30:53 PM
#12
The IRS has stated that recently they can track down people who are making a profit of Bitcoin without claiming it on their tax return.

The primary way the IRS "tracks" Bitcoin traders is through exchanges. If you give your passport and proof of residence to an exchange, your deposit/withdrawal and trading histories can be provided to regulators like IRS.

It became known a few months ago that the IRS is also working with Chainanalysis, which extensively works to link Bitcoin transactions/addresses to identities by scraping the internet and more specifically, darknet markets and forums. It's hard to know how much they know about us from watching our blockchain activity.

Bitcoin is anonymous only for the books but the reality is different. Everything can be tracked through the blockchain public ledger. So we can't call bitcoin truly anonymous.

Bitcoin privacy is terrible, but users can take steps to mitigate that. For instance, most people just use default sending rather than selecting UTXOs. Each output is tainted by its history. Keep that in mind before you send it anywhere, and certainly before you link a bunch of addresses together in a single transaction. Signing transactions from multiple addresses makes it easier to track your wallet because those addresses are forever linked together after that.
full member
Activity: 280
Merit: 111
December 05, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
#11
As far as my knowledge is, I knew that bitcoin was totally anonymous but governments always tried a way to track in the about all the transactions in bitcoin. I guess bitcoin can be traceable because I have seen many people out on the forum boosting the speed of transactions after taking the hash value doesn't that mean Bitcoin can be traceable?
sr. member
Activity: 560
Merit: 269
December 05, 2017, 04:25:47 PM
#10
Bitcoin itself is anonymous. But government is always finding a way to monitor transactions like forcing exchanges to comply with their regulations which is Anti-Money Laudering and Know Your Customer(AML/KYC) policy. That exchanges will also implemented to their system. So people will have to comply in able to use their services. People will forced to give their identification that will be trun over to government and the government will monitor users. Coinbase just turn over their collected IDs of traders to IRS. That is why IRS can monitor every users. That's all i know.
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
December 05, 2017, 04:20:01 PM
#9
Bitcoin is pseudoanonymous. Anyone can track how coins are being transferred between addresses, but it's extremely hard to figure out what exactly happened, as wallets tend to generate new address on every transaction. But if the government can get exit addresses at the exchanges, they can establish connections with these addresses much more easily.
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