Topic: Bitcoin Price Manipulation Video (Read 2403 times)

Yeah, I wasn't trying to give you a hard time with my original reply.

I think it can be done with low float "stocks" easier. Things with high volume require absolutely huge amounts of resources to manipulate.
Again, I'm not saying a "wall" is manipulative. I mean if somebody wants to sell 1000 in one drop, that is their perogative but it would be MUCH better to do so slowly and not frighten people away (unless we are in super bull mode).

But when you watch the video (which is at higher speed), and you see the walls being moved up as the price slowly moves up and yet never really getting close enough to buy, always staying at arms length... Why the heck would someone do that? That basically "means" they are slowly chasing the price to buy and are two steps behind constantly? Just buy at the price or keep your bid there, don't follow the price up.
They are not following the price up to buy, they are doing so to put pressure on the price and buyers that want in.

If you read more of that guys tweets, it is clear he knows a lot about price movements. I didn't know all that he said however. The video put into a picture what the "wall thread" often spoke about but I never gave much thought to. And that is - walls can easily be used to manipulate price (but they also get bitten).

What this all means? Time will tell, but his semi-closing comment is that due to this guy often moving the price up like that, we are overvalued and should be at $93 (I have no idea.)

I believe you forgot a '0'

We are going to  $1800

When you think back to my reply (which was trying to just present the information you left out) and then your reply and your then follow up, it is sort of ironic, no?

Anyway, the moving up of bid walls can easily be construed as manipulative when they are followed by a dump.
[/quote

I suppose it is yes, although unintentional.

I can see how it can be construed like that though. Do you believe that it is quite a common market practice? (Not specifically BTC)

Such a gentleman 
[/quote]

When you think back to my reply (which was trying to just present the information you left out) and then your reply and your then follow up, it is sort of ironic, no?

Anyway, the moving up of bid walls can easily be construed as manipulative when they are followed by a dump.

It's ok, I even typed things a bit slower than normal.
[/quote]

Such a gentleman 

It's ok, I even typed things a bit slower than normal.

I clearly misinterpreted what was being displayed in the video. Thank you for pointing this out and clarifying clearly and concisely for me.

Funny, I thought of that after I posted. Bitcoin.de is interesting in that they don't have a bank. So, if someone is selling or buying, your transaction is going direct through them. You see the order book as a bunch of buy and sells that you can actually buy and sell on, jumping over orders if your wish. It is interesting in that a bid wall can be sold DIRECTLY into if you want.

Not to say that every wall is manipulative, but the Bitcoin.de model is actually where we might see decentralized exchanges going, it would just involve a person acting as an escrow (which Bitcoin.de does in a sense.) It is a relatively good method, but due to delays you can't jump in and out easily. You also can buy and if the price drops just not send the money (though you have 12 hours to mark it as sent - which I think is waaaay too much.) The penalty is that (now anyway) they can ban you. Before, and I got burned by this, I just gave the guy a bad rating. (And at that time it was a 24 hour window to mark as paid).

Regarding the video, I think the movement of the bid walls up, without every buying!, is clearly just trying to move the price, especially when it is followed by a dump at the top.

IAS

@TheEmperor

I don't really think you got the point of the video. You didn't mention the bid walls that were progressively moved up, sort of channeling the price action and directing it in a certain direction. With the video going faster, you could clearly see the bid walls being moved up. Now, it doesn't always work, but if you are looking to buy and someone has a bid wall and you want some, you just put your bid above theirs. Enough of this walks the price up on lower volume.

IAS

There might be algos that cancel the wall once some % of it gets fulfilled.

When you place a market order big enough it will get eaten at once and can´t be pulled anymore i guess.

Would be fun when two manipulators are acting in opposite directions.

lol

I did, and although there is a large dump and price movement I wouldn't personally consider it enough to be counted as manipulation. It's just a large dump.

From the Viedo:- "big sell-down + supporting fake asks-walls to prevent price going up again"

Price at dump: $127
Price at end of video: $121
Lowest price in video: $117

Doesn't even lose 10% of price over 11 hours and comes back to within $6 by the end. I'd hardly say that was a successful manipulation to prevent the price rising again, although on the longer time chart the price is driven down, that however can no way be directly attributed to the dumper as proven because price is rising back up after his dump. Also, I have an issue with fake asks-walls. I believe he's referring to the 0 volume asks. How can these be counted in the order book if the volume you require is 0, you can't ask to buy/sell nothing at (x) price? 

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/mtgox/USD

June the 2nd is where his video is from.

Look at June the 9th, wipes 20%(roughly) of the value then rises back to the pre dump level within 24hrs. Is this considered manipulation?

I'm sorry chaps but IMHO this is normal market play, only difference is in the Bitcoin market, there is a lot less volume and a lot less players and thus an increase in volatility and ability to move the market. Your telling me that if a large hedge fund/bank dumped a HUGE volume of a financial instrument, relative to market size, that this wouldn't happen on that market? It's how the markets work and its how the big boys make there money. Well, that and insider trading 

Wall will most likely disappear as soon as some percentage is nibbled off it.

Will be fun when someone puts that 10k BTC order so that their fake walls get filled.

Did you watch the video at all?

that will happen naturally 

I wish it would manipulate up to $500.00!!!

well ya, after manipulating the price down, what else is their to do but manipulate it back up!