Topic: Bitcoin Proof of Stake fork (Read 546 times)

I am glad that the bitcoin community doesn't see much value in POS yet. Apart from the obvious security issues you can't just swap it without seriously disrupting the power balance in BTC. Also POS works for the rich. There is a point that your earnings from staking become more than your life expenses and you just keep stacking more and more without taking any risks. Your children's children can do the same. Voting rights depend on the amount of stake too. As for how much greener it is I am not sure about that either. In bitcoin's competition between miners the winner is the one wasting the least energy. You can't beat a guy using the excess of his photovoltaic by burning oil. Not to mention the technological advancements that pop up because of this. Critical achievements can be accomplished in renewables just because there can be instant and easy gain.

 i cant believe people Still comparing POW with pos after 12 years of Bitcoin..

Please show me this miracle scientific consensus, I can't find it anywhere and I would like to see names and biographies for all those experts.
I am not arguing against science, but I am not going to bow down science as some weird new age religion, and not use my head for thinking and researching.

Exactly.
Watch what happens every time temperatures reach peak, after that they decline, and that is fact recognized by science.
I remember Al Gore and other fake eco-political clowns predicting in 2009 that North Pole would be totally free of ice in five years, or prince Charles saying in 2009 we only have 8 years to save the planet...
Here is interesting record for 50 years of wrong eco-pocalyptic predictions:
https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-of-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions/

OMG... you deserve a medal for what you just said.
WE are the carbon life form and so is every other living and dead thing on earth, so there is NO imbalance of co2, except maybe in your head and in heads of those expert scientist.

So you are supporting ecological distaster as long it is not happening in your country and in your background right?
Lithium excavation destroyed and keep destroying so many countries and rivers, so please do proper research before saying something like that.
Replacing excavation of one thing with another is NOT the solution for pollution, but it is making some people and corporations richer and other people more stupid for believing them.

Batteries are literally the thing those experts propose for replacing coal and oil, and what renewable energy can we use for Bitcoin is hydro, solar, wind and maybe nuclear (if you consider that to be renewable and green).
Bitcoin and asic miners also don't care where the energy comes from, so what's the problem if the power is coming from coal or volcanos.

You're the one arguing against scientific consensus, not me. Next thing we know you are asking me to prove that the earth isn't flat. I won't bother going down that road, thank you very much.



Yes, except cyclically speaking we'd be up for a new ice age soon, rather than a steady increase in temperature.



You're right, it's not. That's also not the carbon emissions being referred to when talking about climate change. If you believe that that's what people think is causing climate change then yes, that would make no sense

Read the following carefully, it may be something that you have missed and that may cause you to reconsider some of your positions:

It's not the CO2 that humans breathe out that is causing problems. That CO2 is already part of the ecosystem.

The problem is "new" CO2 being reintroduced to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels. Coals, oil, etc... that's all carbon that had been taken out of the atmosphere and bound in solid form millions of years ago. That's where the imbalance comes from. Not from people breathing.

Think of it like inflation. It's the central banks printing more money that's causing inflation. Not people spending their money.



Point taken.



To rephrase one of your statements above:

I am not saying that lithium batteries are a perfect system but it is best we have so far with energy storage.

Also that's completely ignoring the enviromental impact caused by oil and coal extraction. You know, the "other crap" that big corporations are digging up. At much larger quantities.

That being said, shifting electricity from coal to renewables -- the aspect actually relevant to Bitcoin -- has very little to do with lithium extraction. Lithium is currently relevant for getting cars off fossil fuels, yes, but less so for how electricity is produced. The lithium batteries in your laptop, smartphone, etc. care very little about whether the electricity comes from renewables or not.




Again, not what I said. Actually quite the opposite.

The conspiratorial part I am referring to was the statement about big corporations buying out scientific consensus to shill climate change.

It's almost close to the truth though. Shell and Exxon had suppressed data on the impact of carbon emissions since the 80s, so there was some corporate meddling regarding climate change. Except the money to follow would have been fossil fuel companies.

You still didn't answer, where the heck you get your information from?

Fact is that climate is always changing since the beginning of time, we had little ice age not so long ago, we had known big biblical floods and volcanos recorder in history even without man creating machines, masks and other crap.
Cause of climate change is not breath and co2 of human beings.



Let's talk the facts mr. Fact Checker, and please do proper research and not one minute quick google search before doing edits  

World largest lithium mining company is Jiangxi Ganfeng Lithium from CHINA, that owns lithium resources in Australia, Argentina and Mexico.
Third largest company is Tianqi Lithium also from CHINA, owning lithium resources in Australia, Chile and China, and controling around 46% of global lithium production.

It's a well known fact that most of the smartphones are made in China, most of the asic miners are made in China, and China is totally controlling battery production with over 80% of all batteries (including lithium ones) are produced in... China.
Now use those DuckDuckGo search and search for word Rio Tinto, and then look for images of ecological disaster created by big corporation digging Lithium and other crap.
So it's not small people causing disasters, but big corporations, and there is nothing conspiratorial about that.



At least we can agree about Bitcoin and PoW part.

We probably went to school in very different countries at very different times so I doubt we have a common frame of reference as far as a "broken educational system" is concerned. Not meant as a dig or anything, I just don't think it's possible to make meaningful, time-independent blanket statements about educational systems around the world.

Also, who the fuck gives a shit about social media?



...which is exactly what I wrote in my post.

I disagree with your statements about the severity and cause of climate change.

I do agree with your statements that PoW is not the culprit and that PoS is not the solution.

I won't be going into detail about the former because this is not the outlet to discuss this and I neither will be able to convince you nor do I care. My thoughts on the latter I already posted above; just know that it is my honest opinion that (1) PoW is the only viable option for realizing permissionless finance, (2) Bitcoin's current environmental impact is overstated and that (3) Bitcoin's potential to holistically reduce the environmental impact of finance is underestimated.



Edit:


Australia and Chile! I'm staying clear of the stuff that I deem conspiratorial but please get at least the simplest of facts straight. China may play a bigger role in some of the other rare earths, but as far as lithium is concerned China is far behind Australia and Chile both in terms of production and reserves.

Well how did you learn about this ''eviromental desaster'' if not from mainstream media brainwashing corporation, broken educational system, or their social media propaganda machinery?
I didn't say there is no ecological problems, there is a lot (biggest one now is oceans full of face mask junk), but it's not caused by Bitcoin mining that uses 1% of electric energy.
Follow the money and you will see that most of this scientific consensus is fake and paid by big corporation, Rockefellers, Bill Gates and other clowns who care so much that they even had idea to block the sun, release gmo mosquitos, and talk about population reduction because he thinks WE the people are bad for environment and we produce so much co2  
Bill Gates is NOT a scientist nor are the people he bribes to talk and spread his wild ideas while he hides on some remote island.

You are just replacing fossil fuels and coal with lithium and other poisons that are ALL coming from guess where from... yes from China.
I am not saying that PoW is perfect system but it is best we have so far with Bitcoin.


https://oceansasia.org/covid-19-facemasks/

Yes we are and utterly disregarding the scientific consensus won't change that. And I'm telling you that as someone who hasn't had a TV for two decades and isn't even sure what counts as mainstream media these days. Not like I care anyway.

That being said, PoS is a red herring. All that talk about PoW and Bitcoin mining being bad for the environment is just political posturing to distract from the real issue, ie. unnecessarily high reliance on fossil fuels and coal. It's just much easier to attack something as alien as Cryptocurrencies and PoW rather than, you know, try to actually change some of the systemic issues. Want to actually mitigate some of the climate issues? Vote the parties out that continue to subsidize coal mines and airlines over renewables and rail traffic. (well, the latter from an European perspective. I'm afraid the US rail system may be a lost cause at this point in time)



The code is open source and anyone is free to make their own fork of Bitcoin. Not sure what more you want.



Just because you can't mine BTC using a bunch of GPUs in a corner of your living room anymore doesn't mean it's centralized.

Also staking these days requires an even larger amount of capital -- e.g. 32 ETH for Ethereum which amounts to USD 83,000,- as of right now, or as another example 1,000 DASH for a masternode, which amounts to USD 160,000,- today. That's a significantly higher level of entry than mining. Unless you want to keep your money in a... you know... centralized exchange.



*CPUs. It wasn't like 1-2 years later until GPU mining became a possibility.

No we are not, and certainly not because of Bitcoin, but I guess if you keep your head in TV and mainstream media 24/7 it may seem like that.
There is obvious push for some ''green new deal'' that is not so green as advertised, and there is hidden agenda pushed by big tech corporations for this.
For all those renewables you would need to destroy countless rivers to create those lithium batteries and there will never be enough batteries to power everything like it was imagined.
You want to know what is number one pollution in world now? Over 1.6 billion stupid face masks all ended up in ocean during 2020, and nobody cares about that.
 
You are totally brainwashed and you don't have a slightest idea what you are talking about, but you can believe your own PoS fairytales of saving the earth   and watch out for pigeon shit may fall on your head 

We are. The onus is on the government to implement climate-friendly measures; carbon tax, or other financial disincentives to discourage certain activities (ie. Bitcoin mining). People also seem to ignore that greenwashing is very much quite a prevalent issue within the society that we live in. If governments are willing to implement drastic measures to limit the environmental impact of Bitcoin mining, either through outlawing it or by making them use cleaner energy source then there is no problem.

PoW works, simple as that and there is nothing to change there.

There is no such thing as decentralization when we're talking about PoW or PoS for that matter. Simple logic tells you that whoever has the most resources will be able to control a larger proportion of the network, and eventually it would become an entire industry where economies of scale outperform small miners.

We are in the middle of an eviromental desaster, thats not mainstream you can read it in many many scientific papers.
People ignore that make big stress to our children.

All the long thread you mentioned POS Forks. But you need the BTC Ticker, otherwise no trust. So the main devs need to join the game and give their github.

And centralisation..... hell how can you mine BTC these days without investing thousends of dollars at a place with cheap electricity. Thats no decentralasion. Its a fairy tale BTC is still decentral. It was sathoshis idea , but he went off when grafic cards could mine Bitcoin.

btw. little off topic: the block limit all say its a main part of BTC was not at start . It was put up later....

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10388435

Proof-of-Stake on Bitcoin blockchain will never happen because there are major disadvantages that reduce security and decentralization, and they introduce stupid stake feature
that means anyone could run PoS node only if they deposit lot of BTC or trust some validator to do it for them.
Imagine new people wanting to run node and you tell them, oh sorry sir first you need to buy and stake 5 BTC to run your node, and big wales will take most of the staking rewards.
Proof-of-Stake also adds big complexity and much more bugs with potential exploits, and Bitcoin is simple just to avoid that issues and reduce bugs in code.

Here are all Bitcoin forks and most of them are worthless btw:
https://forkdrop.io/

No we are not.
Stop watching mainstream media and don't trust everything you hear or read, it's not that hard to use your own brain and think.

What attack vectors of PoS can be easily exploited? Ideas like "Weak Subjectivity", e.g. as described in the FAQ for CASPER, seem very theoretical.

And why are copycat coins useless? I mean it would be with the added feature of PoS. So everyone who owns Bitcoin, and who wants to be "green", would clearly want to use it

It is because of two things.
First the fact that PoS is more of a vaporware rather than an actual technology which was used for many years to fool people who couldn't mine bitcoin into thinking the new shitcoins with the algorithm are "better" than bitcoin. It also has a lot of weaknesses and serious attack vectors that can be exploited easily if there is enough incentive which is why most PoS coins are either too tiny for anyone to bother attacking them or are completely centralized to prevent the attack.
Secondly it is because copycat coins (which didn't start with bcash in 2017 by the way) are useless and would die sooner or later regardless of what changes they made to bitcoin.

I was thinking about to do the same, a PoS fork of Bitcoin. But looks like nobody would be interested in it. Can't find any of the 3 coins mentioned, except BCI, and looks dead now 3 years later:

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin-interest/

I only claimed BCH & BTG, couldn’t be bothered moving my bitcoin’s out of cold storage AGAIN to claim the rest. I probably should as I could still claim a fair bit of money but don’t like risking/moving my bitcoin’s as they’re very valuable to me.

Think I read some bull shit about another fork coming soon -  Bitcoin Air. If any of these forks were really & I mean really worth it I’d claim them but atm nothing forcing me to do so.

One StakeBitcoin will cost very little, compared to the cost of 1 BTC, for investors it’s a penny, and they don’t pay attention to it, it’s not the profit scale.
it's more marketing.

very interesting to see that POS is best way to increase or stake coins instead of mining.it is much more easier than mining. we can stake coins without help of super computers and all.

ya but just doing a bitcoin fork keeping parameters the same is lame. (no innovation. no inspiration. just copy and paste script kiddy stuff to just give people more airdrops(well just the minimal single tweak as the lame excuse as to why a new airdrop should happen(facepalm)).. thats what that big list of altcoins that tag on the name "bitcoin" do)

CLAM was an airdrop for BTC, DOGE and LTC holders, so not really a Bitcoin hardfork. Additionaly CLAM uses different parameters from Bitcoin in terms of block interval and final supply (amongst other things), so it doesn't quite satisfy what OP was asking for.

Still a fun project though, always nice to see it mentioned.