Topic: Bitcoin - Revolution or Evolution ? - page 2. (Read 419 times)

Quote from: BrewMaster on July 09, 2020, 08:02:35 AM

Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

"many" is an overstatement. i have only heard about 2 or maybe 3 countries that have absolutely banned bitcoin the rest of the 190 or so countries have not!
many countries actually haven't taken any kind of firm stance about bitcoin whether for it or against it. they remain mostly undecided and have allowed it to run its course for now.
some countries have actually accepted it as a currency and have been happy about it.
some countries have called it weird things like commodity, security,... and it was mainly for tax purposes not an agenda.

Ok, this is absolute BS.... Bitcoin was banned in most countries for a very long time... and governments was very hostile towards it. Things only changed a little in the last 6 years or so.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

The tax on bitcoin is not a problem at all... most currencies are taxed with some kind of VAT system... so it is not hard to tax it at all.... it gets tricky when you tax it as a commodity, because capital gains comes into play and also losses incurred in trading. (this makes the tax process more complex)

You have to put a little bit more effort into your posts for the highest paying signature campaign on this forum my friend. Wink

i think you need to go and take a look at the link you posted here yourself. i counted and there are only 7 cases listed as "illegal" which still doesn't count as "many" when it is out of 190+ countries.
you can also look at the map for a fast visualization. hint: the red is ban cases:

keep in mind that being hostile toward something is not the same as "banning" it and also banks being legally prohibited to invest in bitcoin or the banks prohibiting their users from using their services to buy bitcoin is not called "banned" bitcoin. my bank doesn't let me do certain legal things with my money either but that doesn't mean those things are banned. banks don't set the law they can only define what kind of services they offer and don't offer.

as for taxes i didn't say it was a problem, i said their definition is like that for tax purposes because it is easier to tax a commodity,... than to tax a currency.

I see you only joined this forum in 2016, so I do not know if you knew that back in the day... most Bitcoiners (even in the USA) wanted to be totally anonymous... because Bitcoin was a NO NO back then... and that is the point I was wanting to make. Some of the largest countries battled with the concept and they were very hostile towards the Bitcoiners out there. (That includes Rusia / India / China / Vietnam / Bolivia / Columbia and Ecuador.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/041515/countries-where-bitcoin-legal-illegal.asp

https://cointelegraph.com/news/countries-that-first-outlawed-crypto-but-then-embraced-it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bitcoin

How is VAT more difficult to implement, than Capitals Gains taxes? (I am starting to rumble now, because I am as tired as a dead dog now... let's talk again tommorow.)

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 09, 2020, 10:01:53 AM

Did Bitcoin just evolve to satisfy the masses or was the whole project hijacked by the Puppet masters from the traditional Fiat system to stop the revolution and the inevitable change of money as we know it? Huh

What a strange question, Bitcoin didn't fundamentally change from what was created by Satoshi, the structure of the network, the roles, the principles, it's all still the same. And Bitcoin doesn't have any puppet masters, the nodes are controlled by the community, the code is developed by hundreds of contributors. Nothing can force you to use centralized exchanges instead of alternatives like DEXs, p2p trading, Bitcoin ATMs and so on.

Yudhisthir

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Bitcoin is the revolution. It revolutionized peer to peer payment and a decentralized ledger without a middlemen.
Bitcoin is not exactly what satoshi made and not exactly what anyone wants. It's a compromise so that the largest group of people would still trust and love it. Bitcoin may not always be as popular as it is but it would always be the one that started this revolution.

stompix

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Quote from: stompix on July 09, 2020, 09:54:29 AM

~

Bitcoin is freedom, independence from control and 100% transparent and predictable. That is universally appealing to most people regardless of who or what they are.

Most...doubt it...

You're going to be surprised how many people around the world, and not only Japan don't believe in the same freedom without control, for some cultures and for some people there is the need of an authority that can judge and force people to obey the laws, an authority with complete control that can impose at any point the views and laws of the majority. For some total freedom without a god-like authority is scarier than a dictatorship, many associate it with chaos rather than freedom.

Not only for Japanse but even for some Europeans, this idea where you're the only one responsible for your action, that everything you do is set in stone, that you can't revert things, that there is nobody to complain to makes BTC quite scary, that's why a lot of the ones tempted to try it go through 3rd party services, store their coin on web wallets, they need someone in charge as they run from responsibilities.

teosanru

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 09, 2020, 04:54:10 AM

Quote from: BrewMaster on July 09, 2020, 10:02:01 AM

Did Bitcoin just evolve to satisfy the masses or was the whole project hijacked by the Puppet masters from the traditional Fiat system to stop the revolution and the inevitable change of money as we know it? Huh

Bitcoin is what its users choose it to be.

The majority of people don't care about its principles or don't understand them. Luckily there are enough people who keep those qualities alive because one day they might be vital.

People usually attempt to bend something new to fit in with what they're comfortable with already. It takes quite some time to get beyond that and let the underlying innovations flourish.

It's far too early to decide whether it's compromised or on its way. These have all been phases we're passing through.

Can't agree more. People will use something with which they are comfortable and the change would come only if the newer thing provides value larger than what the previous was providing. But I think Bitcoin in it's original form has had enough time to showcase whether it can be used as money or not.

Quote from: BrewMaster on July 09, 2020, 08:02:35 AM

Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

"many" is an overstatement. i have only heard about 2 or maybe 3 countries that have absolutely banned bitcoin the rest of the 190 or so countries have not!
many countries actually haven't taken any kind of firm stance about bitcoin whether for it or against it. they remain mostly undecided and have allowed it to run its course for now.
some countries have actually accepted it as a currency and have been happy about it.
some countries have called it weird things like commodity, security,... and it was mainly for tax purposes not an agenda.

Ok, this is absolute BS.... Bitcoin was banned in most countries for a very long time... and governments was very hostile towards it. Things only changed a little in the last 6 years or so.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

The tax on bitcoin is not a problem at all... most currencies are taxed with some kind of VAT system... so it is not hard to tax it at all.... it gets tricky when you tax it as a commodity, because capital gains comes into play and also losses incurred in trading. (this makes the tax process more complex)

You have to put a little bit more effort into your posts for the highest paying signature campaign on this forum my friend. Wink

i think you need to go and take a look at the link you posted here yourself. i counted and there are only 7 cases listed as "illegal" which still doesn't count as "many" when it is out of 190+ countries.
you can also look at the map for a fast visualization. hint: the red is ban cases:

keep in mind that being hostile toward something is not the same as "banning" it and also banks being legally prohibited to invest in bitcoin or the banks prohibiting their users from using their services to buy bitcoin is not called "banned" bitcoin.

as for taxes i didn't say it was a problem, i said their definition is like that for tax purposes because it is easier to tax a commodity,... than to tax a currency.

Actually this could fall like a domino or is much like a magnet effect. I understand that most countries until now haven't banned it. But once the top G-8 or something decides to ban it. It could have a hard time as most of the countries do the same done by these top countries. Like If USA bans it many more will be coming behind it banning cryptocurrencies.

BrewMaster

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Quote from: BrewMaster on July 09, 2020, 08:02:35 AM

Quote from: stompix on July 09, 2020, 09:54:29 AM

Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

"many" is an overstatement. i have only heard about 2 or maybe 3 countries that have absolutely banned bitcoin the rest of the 190 or so countries have not!
many countries actually haven't taken any kind of firm stance about bitcoin whether for it or against it. they remain mostly undecided and have allowed it to run its course for now.
some countries have actually accepted it as a currency and have been happy about it.
some countries have called it weird things like commodity, security,... and it was mainly for tax purposes not an agenda.

Ok, this is absolute BS.... Bitcoin was banned in most countries for a very long time... and governments was very hostile towards it. Things only changed a little in the last 6 years or so.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

The tax on bitcoin is not a problem at all... most currencies are taxed with some kind of VAT system... so it is not hard to tax it at all.... it gets tricky when you tax it as a commodity, because capital gains comes into play and also losses incurred in trading. (this makes the tax process more complex)

You have to put a little bit more effort into your posts for the highest paying signature campaign on this forum my friend. Wink

i think you need to go and take a look at the link you posted here yourself. i counted and there are only 7 cases listed as "illegal" which still doesn't count as "many" when it is out of 190+ countries.
you can also look at the map for a fast visualization. hint: the red is ban cases:

keep in mind that being hostile toward something is not the same as "banning" it and also banks being legally prohibited to invest in bitcoin or the banks prohibiting their users from using their services to buy bitcoin is not called "banned" bitcoin. my bank doesn't let me do certain legal things with my money either but that doesn't mean those things are banned. banks don't set the law they can only define what kind of services they offer and don't offer.

as for taxes i didn't say it was a problem, i said their definition is like that for tax purposes because it is easier to tax a commodity,... than to tax a currency.

gentlemand

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And another problem with the so-called principles, it's damn hard to apply them all over the world, different cultures, beliefs, economies, for a lot of people around the world what some tell here about control, libertarian views is total nonsense.

Bitcoin is freedom, independence from control and 100% transparent and predictable. That is universally appealing to most people regardless of who or what they are.

Libertarians are free to latch on to that just as much as any other political persuasion. It's open to all.

I remember Roger Ver, pre meltdown, talking about the reception of his ideas as he went around the world in his early evangelising. The one and only place where its ideas weren't universally approved of after his elevator pitch was Japan where most people who pondered it declared it scary.

kryptqnick

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So in the early years of Bitcoin's history we saw a lot of people pushing the "Bitcoin is a Revolution" agenda. We know it's origin came from Satoshi Nakamoto posting that his project was a electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party.

In the beginning this was a technological revolution and a breakthrough that would change the future of Money. "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"

Hidden in the Genesis block was a reference to this : "The Times 03 Jan 2009 - Chancellor on Brink of second bailout for Banks", so it is just natural to think that it might spark a revolution.

Libertarians and Anarchists was all over this and when PayPal stopped processing donations to Wikileaks and credit card companies stopped processing Backpage.com payments, Bitcoin stepped in to help. Cool

Third party services took notice and regulated third parties entered the scene to try to bring some order and also to bend over to government pressure or just to make a quick buck. Angry

Did Bitcoin just evolve to satisfy the masses or was the whole project hijacked by the Puppet masters from the traditional Fiat system to stop the revolution and the inevitable change of money as we know it? Huh

That's an interesting question, not even in relation to Bitcoin, but in general. Namely, do revolutions ever happen? I've encountered many cases in which something that was called revolutionary was actually building up on various ideas if the past. In philosophy, Schopenhauer was sort of revolutionary, but in fact he was deeply influenced by a classical philosopher Kant. In politics, the communist revolution was influenced by Marx who, in turn, was influenced by Hegel in his youth.
When it comes to cryptos, there was Hayek for theoretical background and Chaum with ecash as a practical implementation.
So any revolutionary idea is probably not that revolutionary if you know the context.

stompix

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 09, 2020, 04:54:10 AM

Ok, this is absolute BS.... Bitcoin was banned in most countries for a very long time... and governments was very hostile towards it.

Nope, yours is absolutely false.
You claim BTC was banned in most countries for a long time, so please make a list of those countries, which by definition must be the majority so at least 100 in which Bitcoin was BANNED not a very long time ago.

Bitcoin is what its users choose it to be.
The majority of people don't care about its principles or don't understand them.

Principles stop being important when your stomach screams hunger!
That's why we have imbeciles ruling poor countries for decades, that's why we have a lot of shits happening all over the world.
Because at the end of the day people draw a line, and when the only benefit is hope in some possible future for things to change and the other is immediate gain and relief of troubles, guess what they will choose.

And another problem with the so-called principles, it's damn hard to apply them all over the world, different cultures, beliefs, economies, for a lot of people around the world what some tell here about control, libertarian views is total nonsense.

Kakmakr

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Quote from: BrewMaster on July 09, 2020, 08:02:35 AM

Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

"many" is an overstatement. i have only heard about 2 or maybe 3 countries that have absolutely banned bitcoin the rest of the 190 or so countries have not!
many countries actually haven't taken any kind of firm stance about bitcoin whether for it or against it. they remain mostly undecided and have allowed it to run its course for now.
some countries have actually accepted it as a currency and have been happy about it.
some countries have called it weird things like commodity, security,... and it was mainly for tax purposes not an agenda.

Ok, this is absolute BS.... Bitcoin was banned in most countries for a very long time... and governments was very hostile towards it. Things only changed a little in the last 6 years or so.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

The tax on bitcoin is not a problem at all... most currencies are taxed with some kind of VAT system... so it is not hard to tax it at all.... it gets tricky when you tax it as a commodity, because capital gains comes into play and also losses incurred in trading. (this makes the tax process more complex)

You have to put a little bit more effort into your posts for the highest paying signature campaign on this forum my friend. Wink

Salauddin1994

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People are interested in currency technology instead of bitcoin In fact, blockchain technology is thought to be capable of revolutionizing many areas bitcoin is like any other currency that can be used as a payment. The difference is that it is digital but in this modern century everything will be the perfect monetization of digitized. Paying with Bitcoin is like filling a block that records the payment data everyone should remember that this technology is still very perfect and in the process of development. Blockchain technology is capable of bringing about revolutionary change with time and proper evolution.

avikz

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Perfect statement @gentlemand! That's definitely it!

Bitcoin has definitely started as a revolution and with a pro-government agenda. But it has quickly evolved as a "get rich quick" scheme for majority. We have seen the height of "get rich quick" sentiments around bitcoin back in 2018 when the price reached ATH.

So one can't say if it's a revolution or evolution really! It's probably both and even more at times! I mean, it's impossible and bit stupid to classify bitcoin when it's just 11 years old. We don't yet know the possibilities that may come our way in future, it's endless!

BrewMaster

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 09, 2020, 04:54:10 AM

Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

"many" is an overstatement. i have only heard about 2 or maybe 3 countries that have absolutely banned bitcoin the rest of the 190 or so countries have not!
many countries actually haven't taken any kind of firm stance about bitcoin whether for it or against it. they remain mostly undecided and have allowed it to run its course for now.
some countries have actually accepted it as a currency and have been happy about it.
some countries have called it weird things like commodity, security,... and it was mainly for tax purposes not an agenda.

Mbitr

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I think it definitely started off with libertarian and anti establishment motives . As well as what was put in the Genesis block , Satoshi definitely had anti banking ideas - quote from Satoshi - “ Yes, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years“.
But unfortunately human behaviour- notably greed has taken over now . I don’t think any governments or old puppet masters are involved , it’s a new breed of get rich establishments/individuals who are utilising their new found wealth for their own purposes .

Darker45

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Whether it was due to the hijacking of the powerful elites or not, that is still considered an evolution.

But, make no mistake, it wasn't Bitcoin per se which actually changed. It was how people or businesses handle Bitcoin. Bitcoin remains as is. The thing which evolves are those which are incidental to Bitcoin like how it is being treated right now.

Kakmakr

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Did Bitcoin just evolve to satisfy the masses or was the whole project hijacked by the Puppet masters from the traditional Fiat system to stop the revolution and the inevitable change of money as we know it? Huh

Bitcoin is what its users choose it to be.

The majority of people don't care about its principles or don't understand them. Luckily there are enough people who keep those qualities alive because one day they might be vital.

People usually attempt to bend something new to fit in with what they're comfortable with already. It takes quite some time to get beyond that and let the underlying innovations flourish.

It's far too early to decide whether it's compromised or on its way. These have all been phases we're passing through.

Do you think it is impossible that the new thinking was not engineered to favor the governments agenda? Many countries absolutely banned Bitcoin when they realized that it was a threat to their local currencies. Bitcoin survived in countries where they defined it as a commodity and not as a currency.

Do you think this happened on it's own... or was this forced behavior? Lately, most people see Bitcoin as some kind of super investment option with "Get rich quick" properties. Angry

I think most people lost the ability to think for themselves, because the system/government are thinking for them now. Sad

gentlemand

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