Bitcoin savings plan - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

adamstgBit

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Quote from: proudhon on December 08, 2011, 02:24:57 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 01:20:11 PM

We have come to a state where the main net buyers of bitcoins are the ones already holding the most of them.

I think this is mostly right. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that most of the buying we've seen over the past month and a half or so has been by people who sold bitcoins before the price went below $3 and does not represent new money.

This form has an "Average registrations per day: 63.28"
Its safe to say if you register to this form you have bought or will buy SOME bitcoins.
so I'd say bitcoin is being divided by more and more people.

jimbobway

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I just bought some more bitcoins. Time to buy stuff fo r xmas. Gotta get that bitcoin tshirt. Grin

finway

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Mine it sell it or short it,

not only by mouth.

Vandroiy

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 01:20:11 PM

Currently we are in the "that will show em" stage... the same people responsible for the bubble have declared a tow war against bitcoinca, Ignoring their sunk costs they are trying to further increase artificial scarcity by buying whenever they can.

Uhm, that would be strange. The people who drove the bubble with their money probably don't have a lot of purchasing power left, and I think they've been neatly disillusioned.

I think it's people like me, who were going against the bubble and just buy back their coins now. On top of these, there might be hobby-speculators who are afraid of he down-trend and only buy back now because it has significantly weakened throughout the last month -- actually, comparing current price to 1 month ago, it might be stopping completely. A lot of people like following trends.

I'm not so much into the whole short-term and trend stuff though. I think Bitcoins are worth more than 3 USD, so I buy/hold when the price is below. I'm not terribly angry if I have to wait a while until it works out.

BTW, @Topic: it really depends on the price and situation for me. I buy slowly, to be less sensitive to swings, but it really depends on price and indicators just how much.

Crypt_Current

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 02:43:46 PM

Quote from: westkybitcoins on December 08, 2011, 02:24:02 PM

- If all gold stored (including jewelry) were to hit the market, the price would plummet
- Most gold is being bought up by people who already have the most
- Only a tiny fraction of the gold that's in existence is actually bought/sold instead of being stored

Exactly here is the difference. Jewelry cannot be converted to investment gold effortless there is no equivalent for bitcoin. The closest thing would be using the blockchain for validation of other data while destroying bitcoins. This is almost never done and insignificant right now.

Since the investment market is only a small fraction of the overall market for gold and the main use continues to be jewelery this isn't true either. The amount of gold used in wedding rings probably is higher that the whole investment market.

The last point is also false, quite the opposite almost all the gold in the earth is traded using mining stocks, and the largest holders of gold (on the comex) constantly trade it, use it for leverage, back and forth.

The amount of gold actually hoarded by goldbugs is only a very small fraction of the overall supply while with bitcoin the vast majority sits in someones wallet. It is true that physical gold mostly never moves, but nevertheless it is constantly traded as "paper gold" which can be (excluding fraud) be taked delivery for.

Do you think NMC could be analogous to using gold for jewelry?

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 02:43:46 PM

The amount of gold actually hoarded by goldbugs is only a very small fraction of the overall supply while with bitcoin the vast majority sits in someones wallet. It is true that physical gold mostly never moves, but nevertheless it is constantly traded as "paper gold" which can be (excluding fraud) be taked delivery for.

Ok. I disagree, in particular with this portion, but rather than get into COMEX fraud or central bank holding estimates, let's presume it's completely true.

With that difference in mind, what problem does my saving bitcoins cause?

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: westkybitcoins on December 08, 2011, 02:24:02 PM

- If all gold stored (including jewelry) were to hit the market, the price would plummet
- Most gold is being bought up by people who already have the most
- Only a tiny fraction of the gold that's in existence is actually bought/sold instead of being stored

Exactly here is the difference. Jewelry cannot be converted to investment gold effortless there is no equivalent for bitcoin. The closest thing would be using the blockchain for validation of other data while destroying bitcoins. This is almost never done and insignificant right now.

Since the investment market is only a small fraction of the overall market for gold and the main use continues to be jewelery this isn't true either. The amount of gold used in wedding rings probably is higher that the whole investment market.

The last point is also false, quite the opposite almost all the gold in the earth is traded using mining stocks, and the largest holders of gold (on the comex) constantly trade it, use it for leverage, back and forth.

The amount of gold actually hoarded by goldbugs is only a very small fraction of the overall supply while with bitcoin the vast majority sits in someones wallet. It is true that physical gold mostly never moves, but nevertheless it is constantly traded as "paper gold" which can be (excluding fraud) be taked delivery for.

proudhon

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 01:20:11 PM

We have come to a state where the main net buyers of bitcoins are the ones already holding the most of them.

I think this is mostly right. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that most of the buying we've seen over the past month and a half or so has been by people who sold bitcoins before the price went below $3 and does not represent new money.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 01:54:12 PM

The old gold comparison, it would be valid if the investment market wouldn't be that tiny. Half of all gold is used in jewelery that alone is such a tremendous difference. Also see the "why bitcoin is not gold" thread... it explains it in some detail.

I wasn't trying to say bitcoin is gold, but they do share a lot of relevant properties that you had touched on:

- If all gold stored (including jewelry) were to hit the market, the price would plummet
- Most gold is being bought up by people who already have the most
- Only a tiny fraction of the gold that's in existence is actually bought/sold instead of being stored

I guess I'm not understanding why the idea of someone saving their bitcoins is an issue. I like them, I want some for future use, and I expect the price to go up long-term. Ergo, I buy and store some. Am I obligated to buy (or mine) them and then spend them all, never holding onto any? Because personally, I'm not acting in a desperate, malicious manner, any more than when I buy and save silver or gold or dollars.

ElectricMucus

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The old gold comparison, it would be valid if the investment market wouldn't be that tiny. Half of all gold is used in jewelery that alone is such a tremendous difference. Also see the "why bitcoin is not gold" thread... it explains it in some detail.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on December 08, 2011, 01:20:11 PM

The whole "investing" strategy into bitcoin stinks to high heaven because the tiny fraction actually used for exchange. If all the coins currently in existence were to hit the market we would need to go down in price another 90%.

Currently we are in the "that will show em" stage... the same people responsible for the bubble have declared a tow war against bitcoinca, Ignoring their sunk costs they are trying to further increase artificial scarcity by buying whenever they can.

This thread is kind of the manifestation of this desperation, its a siege, parasitic on the real bitcoin economy which eventually gets choked to death. We have come to a state where the main net buyers of bitcoins are the ones already holding the most of them.

flame on. Roll Eyes

Ignoring the bitcoinca angle, I wonder how much of this is equally applicable to gold (the net buyers are the ones already holding the most, etc.)

Point being, people still invest in gold, even though it's rarely used in everyday trade, and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

ElectricMucus

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The whole "investing" strategy into bitcoin stinks to high heaven because the tiny fraction actually used for exchange. If all the coins currently in existence were to hit the market we would need to go down in price another 90%.

Currently we are in the "that will show em" stage... the same people responsible for the bubble have declared a tow war against bitcoinca, Ignoring their sunk costs they are trying to further increase artificial scarcity by buying whenever they can.

This thread is kind of the manifestation of this desperation, its a siege, parasitic on the real bitcoin economy which eventually gets choked to death. We have come to a state where the main net buyers of bitcoins are the ones already holding the most of them.

flame on. Roll Eyes

BadBear

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It doesn't conflict, I expect the price to go down further from here. Even if it *only* drops another dollar thats a significant percentage at this point. I expect the price will rise again in 2012 and onwards, but a lot could happen between now and then.

It doesn't hurt to wait, I have bought and am holding some, but do not plan to buy more at the moment.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 09:19:03 AM

Quote from: westkybitcoins on December 08, 2011, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 08:38:51 AM

I'm not. Using bitcoin to store wealth at this point is silly. You're silly.

Hmm.

Had you just said "Using bitcoin to store wealth is silly," I would understand your perspective.

At what point will it switch from being a bad idea to store wealth in bitcoin to being a good idea? What critical point do you think needs to be reached?

When the downtrend stops, or there is a clear reversal. The downtrend has stalled for now, but the longer we go without the price going up, the more likely it is we'll see another crash or the downtrend resume It is young still, and the short/mid term is uncertain. Long term I'm still positive, but unwilling to tie up assets in bitcoin at the moment.

But that's just it... from the chart you posted, it looks as if the downtrend has flatlined. Stability makes for a good store of value (even if just for the time being,) and since the price appears to have bottomed, that makes it the best time to buy from an investment perspective.

I don't see why a flatlined price would indicate a further drop or another crash any more than a renewed increase or new bubble, but I guess if that's your analysis it makes sense to wait it out.

Personally, I'm taking the same stance I do with precious metals: yeah, it may take another hit sometime soon... but as precarious as the global economy is right now, what if instead the price takes off and I'm not properly invested yet? At that point, wouldn't it be better to have bought at $3, missed the dip to $2, but have held through to the surge, than to have not bought at $3, expected a dip to $2 to that never came, and to have missed the surge entirely?

finway

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Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 09:19:03 AM

The downtrend has stalled for now, but the longer we go without the price going up, the more likely it is we'll see another crash or the downtrend resume

This is about speculation.

Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 09:19:03 AM

It is young still, and the short/mid term is uncertain. Long term I'm still positive, but unwilling to tie up assets in bitcoin at the moment.

This is about investment. but i don't get the short/mid/long term conflictions.

Bitcoin is now wellknown, and will be more wellknown, I am sure about that.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: jimbobway on December 08, 2011, 09:37:25 AM

Remember, you can also try to spend your invested bitcoins and support the bitcoin economy. Need hosting? Find a bitcoin hosting provider. Buy a bitcoin tshirt or two. etc...

Good point. I've just tried out bitmunchies, and hope to give a few of the other bitcoin businesses that can fill a need of mine a try.

Coinbuck @ BTCLot

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Quote from: jimbobway on December 08, 2011, 09:37:25 AM

Remember, you can also try to spend your invested bitcoins and support the bitcoin economy. Need hosting? Find a bitcoin hosting provider. Buy a bitcoin tshirt or two. etc...

Yes, infact, Bitcoin is a advantage to hosting providers, they can make lower prices thanks to the non-existant transaction fees.

So what you get: really affordable hosting and you support the bitcoin economy at the same time.

Isn't that great ?

jimbobway

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Remember, you can also try to spend your invested bitcoins and support the bitcoin economy. Need hosting? Find a bitcoin hosting provider. Buy a bitcoin tshirt or two. etc...

BadBear

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Quote from: westkybitcoins on December 08, 2011, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 08:38:51 AM

I'm not. Using bitcoin to store wealth at this point is silly. You're silly.

Hmm.

Had you just said "Using bitcoin to store wealth is silly," I would understand your perspective.

At what point will it switch from being a bad idea to store wealth in bitcoin to being a good idea? What critical point do you think needs to be reached?

When the downtrend stops, or there is a clear reversal. The downtrend has stalled for now, but the longer we go without the price going up, the more likely it is we'll see another crash or the downtrend resume It is young still, and the short/mid term is uncertain. Long term I'm still positive, but unwilling to tie up assets in bitcoin at the moment.

Quote from: finway on December 08, 2011, 09:18:08 AM

Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 08:38:51 AM

I'm not. Using bitcoin to store wealth at this point is silly. You're silly.

I don't get it ,why silly?

finway

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Quote from: BadBear on December 08, 2011, 08:38:51 AM

I'm not. Using bitcoin to store wealth at this point is silly. You're silly.

I don't get it ,why silly?

Topic: Bitcoin savings plan - page 2. (Read 4622 times)