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Topic: Bitcoin Savings & Trust - Money Returned List (One reported - CLOSED). - page 12. (Read 67107 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.


Playing devil Pirate's advocate again; we dont know how much he told his customers. Remember there arent that many, and they generally seem quite confident. Its their customers customers, all the passthrough, bonds etc holders that are jumping off cliffs.

There are people selling BTCST accounts for under their face value, these people are pirate's direct customers and they have been left in the dark. Pirate is undeniably ignoring his customers' worries.
I'm actually more surprised that people are still buying BS&T accounts at all...
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.


Playing devil Pirate's advocate again; we dont know how much he told his customers. Remember there arent that many, and they generally seem quite confident. Its their customers customers, all the passthrough, bonds etc holders that are jumping off cliffs.

If this were found out to be true, it would reflect very poorly on the morality of first-level lenders if they had repayment information that they were not passing on, therefore artificially depressing (manipulating) the market on the securities they have sold.  It would make the collateral damage to Bitcoin and this forum's reputation much worse to have several bad actors instead of just one, so let's hope that those guys have the courage to do the right thing for their customers.

As the saying goes, when the tide goes out, you find out who's been swimming naked.  By the end of this month, we will have learned a lot about the reputation and moral character of several prominent people on this forum.
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.


Playing devil Pirate's advocate again; we dont know how much he told his customers. Remember there arent that many, and they generally seem quite confident. Its their customers customers, all the passthrough, bonds etc holders that are jumping off cliffs.

There are people selling BTCST accounts for under their face value, these people are pirate's direct customers and they have been left in the dark. Pirate is undeniably ignoring his customers' worries.

Disclaimer: I have 4 BTC in some friendly bets against pirate.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.


Playing devil Pirate's advocate again; we dont know how much he told his customers. Remember there arent that many, and they generally seem quite confident. Its their customers customers, all the passthrough, bonds etc holders that are jumping off cliffs.
member
Activity: 89
Merit: 10
Marketplace for sensor data

Cheesy  Spare change?  1AZ7QeAnzW8ywfJPUS3DeiXxCmetYgUTLe

I'm saving up for the next big scam . . . . ASIC's!   Grin
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
MODs should remove the long offer forum or post an avertisment.
legendary
Activity: 2450
Merit: 1002
I dont think we are gettin our btc back, lets face it =(
full member
Activity: 134
Merit: 100
That might be true, but the problem is that, due to the general atmosphere of FUD and non-news of the past 48hs, some "investors" are now accepting lowball offers on their debt and will take big losses due to fear of getting nothing.  So even if you assume it's not a Ponzi and he will pay out, he is indirectly screwing some of his former clients by not keeping them in the loop as to what exactly is going on with their payments.

If I was running a business where my reputation was at stake, and I had custodianship of other people's savings, I'd damn well make sure to answer all communications respectfully and let everyone know the exact status of the payout situation at least once a day.  If only so that my customers could sleep well at night.

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.

PS: these are unemotional outsider observations, I have no exposure, direct or indirect, to his business.

I agree 100%. It's all to clear how pirate doesn't care one bit for his lenders. If he pays everyone back and later comes up with a BS&T 2, I'll be sure to stay clear for this reason alone.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Well, Im not sure I want to be the guy to stand up for pirate, but to be fair, if he has some sort of deal with customers, like, I dont know, future contracts or whatever, its not unthinkable he has to dissolve/settle those contracts first before he can return the coins. Assuming he would have them, if he passed the coins on to some other party for whatever reason, it might take him some days (and of course, potentially, forever) to get them back.

That might be true, but the problem is that, due to the general atmosphere of FUD and non-news of the past 48hs, some "investors" are now accepting lowball offers on their debt and will take big losses due to fear of getting nothing.  So even if you assume it's not a Ponzi and he will pay out, he is indirectly screwing some of his former clients by not keeping them in the loop as to what exactly is going on with their payments.

If I was running a business where my reputation was at stake, and I had custodianship of other people's savings, I'd damn well make sure to answer all communications respectfully and let everyone know the exact status of the payout situation at least once a day.  If only so that my customers could sleep well at night.

So at this point, although it's not yet confirmed that it's a Ponzi, the past 48hs do seem to confirm that Pirate has no moral problem with his customers jumping off a cliff due to his own lack of transparency.

PS: these are unemotional outsider observations, I have no exposure, direct or indirect, to his business.

sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 251
I'm just curious - for the people who are still standing up for pirate - can you name one good reason he's supposedly decided to keep accumulating an additional $50k+ of debt every day? If he was going to pay back wouldn't he have started immediately? Surely he can lay hands on at least part of it.

Well, Im not sure I want to be the guy to stand up for pirate, but to be fair, if he has some sort of deal with customers, like, I dont know, future contracts or whatever, its not unthinkable he has to dissolve/settle those contracts first before he can return the coins. Assuming he would have them, if he passed the coins on to some other party for whatever reason, it might take him some days (and of course, potentially, forever) to get them back.

This of course is the classic HYIP/Ponzi situation. "Funds are tied up, so sorry about the delay, perhaps over the coming months I can recoup some of the money..."
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 11
I think we can easily get a verifiable grounding on whether pirate is returning, ask bitlane, the supposed user that pirate blames the rush on (which I think is BS BTW), he was the most vocal about not getting his deposit withdrawn on time (or, according to him the lines of "communication" were down), surely he would be the man to ask whether he had received his coins yet, since he was supposedly the one that was closed on immediately (hence automatically according to pirates policies, the first to have their funds reimbursed), no?

Edit: Oops, he's already put himself at the back of the list... https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1120790
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I'm just curious - for the people who are still standing up for pirate - can you name one good reason he's supposedly decided to keep accumulating an additional $50k+ of debt every day? If he was going to pay back wouldn't he have started immediately? Surely he can lay hands on at least part of it.

Well, Im not sure I want to be the guy to stand up for pirate, but to be fair, if he has some sort of deal with customers, like, I dont know, future contracts or whatever, its not unthinkable he has to dissolve/settle those contracts first before he can return the coins. Assuming he would have them, if he passed the coins on to some other party for whatever reason, it might take him some days (and of course, potentially, forever) to get them back.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1002
I'm just curious - for the people who are still standing up for pirate - can you name one good reason he's supposedly decided to keep accumulating an additional $50k+ of debt every day? If he was going to pay back wouldn't he have started immediately? Surely he can lay hands on at least part of it.
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
any lender since more than 3 months got more interest as his investment ... early adopter since November 2011 tripled (at least) their placement ...

Yes if they started at close to day 1, never compounded, and never increased their "investment".  How many people do you think fell into the category?

The ponzi scheme works because the classic distribution model is.
Day 0 - "7% that has to be a scam"
Day 14 - "Wow he made two payment.  Well I will risk 100 BTC.  Call it a gamble"
Day 21 - "Got me 7 BTC - I will withdraw it play it safe"
Day 28 - "Another 7 BTC.  Hmm.  I mean if I compounded these I could make 3400%. What if he caps deposits?"
Day 29 - "Depositing another 100 BTC plus the 14 BTC interest."
...
Day 80 - "Wow on paper I now have 500 BTC.  Ok time to go big.  Let me deposit 500 BTC more and compound everything".
...
Day 150 - "PIRATE WHERE IS MY MONEY YOU OWE ME 2500 BTC"

Of those two cashflows which do you think is the overwhelming majority of the 500K BTC?  Smiley

"All this has happened before and all it will all happen again."

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Ponzi schemes commonly rely on people compounding and wanting to throw more money into them.
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
any lender since more than 3 months got more interest as his investment ... early adopter since November 2011 tripled (at least) their placement ...

Yes if they started at close to day 1, never compounded, and never increased their "investment".  How many people do you think fell into the category?

The ponzi scheme works because the classic distribution model is.
Day 0 - "7% that has to be a scam"
Day 14 - "Wow he made two payment.  Well I will risk 100 BTC.  Call it a gamble"
Day 21 - "Got me 7 BTC - I will withdraw it play it safe"
Day 28 - "Another 7 BTC.  Hmm.  I mean if I compounded these I could make 3400%. What if he caps deposits?"
Day 29 - "Depositing another 100 BTC plus the 14 BTC interest."
...
Day 80 - "Wow on paper I now have 500 BTC.  Ok time to go big.  Let me deposit 500 BTC more and compound everything".
...
Day 150 - "PIRATE WHERE IS MY MONEY YOU OWE ME 2500 BTC"

Of those two cashflows which do you think is the overwhelming majority of the 500K BTC?  Smiley

"All this has happened before and all it will all happen again."
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1520
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
any lender since more than 3 months got more interest as his investment ... early adopter since November 2011 tripled (at least) their placement ...

unfortunately only on paper or do you have a proof of this with bitcoin flows?
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
That's not a good reason to run with the coins...
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
I think pirate is having a good laugh seeing these threads
sr. member
Activity: 438
Merit: 291
Jesum, when did this become a "hit" thread? 

What is really funny is that it has nothing in it! And that is what makes it so interesting - no one is claiming to have received any money from Bitcoin Savings & Trust!
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