Bitcoin the fundamental tool for economic liberation/independence

witcher_sense

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on January 03, 2022, 06:05:12 AM

But first they would have to be sure that I really HODL Bitcoin, and how much. What if I have just $50.00 in Bitcoin? Will they raid my home? They should raid Roger Ver’s home. OR I can have a wallet with some Bitcoins, I give them that, and never tell them my cold storage.

The point is the user has custody over his/her own money through Bitcoin.

Naturally, if your government doesn't know that you really have bitcoin or how much you have, it is unlikely that they will come for you to seize it, which is why people will often say that money loves silence. Those who are advocating against people should have the right to financial privacy often forget that without such privacy you are very vulnerable to robbery, especially if it is being committed by government representatives themselves. They are perhaps the most dangerous robbers because they can rob you absolutely legally, so no police will protect you from that. Even in the case of totalitarian, authoritarian, and other anti-human regimes, under which the most of human population currently lives, everything is mostly taking place within the bounds of the law. The fact that you will have self-custody over your money through Bitcoin will not help you much when you are faced with such a powerful monster. Self-custody means you are responsible for your money, you are in charge of it, your money, even though it is a part of a decentralized network, is not so decentralized and censorship and seizure-resistant. You are a single point of failure when it comes to the ownership of money.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: franky1 on January 01, 2022, 06:39:54 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 14, 2021, 02:40:28 AM

Quote from: witcher_sense on December 14, 2021, 02:18:08 AM

The government doesn't need to ask permission to enter the network, and it also doesn't need permission to take away your bitcoin.

How can it take away MY Bitcoin “without permission”?

1. they can take away your access to your bitcoin.
a. arrest you, put you in a cell with no computer for life
b. kill you, call it an accident by saying they thought you had a gun in your hand
c. destroy your computer equipment/devices holding the private keys

They still have not taken away my Bitcoin, and put it in their custody.

Quote

2. they can take your bitcoin without your permission.
a. raid your home when you are not there and seize your devices and move the coin
b. have a warrant when you are there, they dont need your permission then
c. arrest you, and force you to comply. 'agree under protest/duress' is not the same as giving permission
d. destroy your equipment

But first they would have to be sure that I really HODL Bitcoin, and how much. What if I have just $50.00 in Bitcoin? Will they raid my home? They should raid Roger Ver’s home. OR I can have a wallet with some Bitcoins, I give them that, and never tell them my cold storage.

The point is the user has custody over his/her own money through Bitcoin.

franky1

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Quote from: Darker45 on January 01, 2022, 07:53:26 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Satoshi ever mentioned that Bitcoin is also created for governments. As a matter of fact, it is a reaction to how fiat is poorly handled by governments, to how the trust of the people in their governments are somehow wasted. It is in line with this that Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, is invented so that individuals could transact directly with each other and won't have to go through third parties.

try telling that to the altnet groupies that want to pretend bitcoin is not a currency or electronic cash system, but to them its a gateway settlement/auditor system for a different cash system involving institutionally regulated "hubs" that route payments through middlemen.

seems these groupies of altnets think that bitcoins design is to move people away from bitcoin and into institutional middleman banking on altnets, playing pass the parcel with IOU's and never settling up for the real independent asset holding.

bitcoin was invented to be an option thats different than the banking system. not to become institutional banking2.0

Obito

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Quote from: Darker45 on January 01, 2022, 07:53:26 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Satoshi ever mentioned that Bitcoin is also created for governments. As a matter of fact, it is a reaction to how fiat is poorly handled by governments, to how the trust of the people in their governments are somehow wasted. It is in line with this that Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, is invented so that individuals could transact directly with each other and won't have to go through third parties.

I think that it's the main reason, maybe Satoshi just unconsciously implied that bitcoin can help the government, I mean the poor handling of fiat that Satoshi said could've implied that bitcoin offers a help that they might be able to fix the problem.

Darker45

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Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Satoshi ever mentioned that Bitcoin is also created for governments. As a matter of fact, it is a reaction to how fiat is poorly handled by governments, to how the trust of the people in their governments are somehow wasted. It is in line with this that Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, is invented so that individuals could transact directly with each other and won't have to go through third parties.

franky1

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 14, 2021, 02:40:28 AM

Quote from: witcher_sense on December 14, 2021, 02:18:08 AM

The government doesn't need to ask permission to enter the network, and it also doesn't need permission to take away your bitcoin.

How can it take away MY Bitcoin “without permission”?

1. they can take away your access to your bitcoin.
a. arrest you, put you in a cell with no computer for life
b. kill you, call it an accident by saying they thought you had a gun in your hand
c. destroy your computer equipment/devices holding the private keys

2. they can take your bitcoin without your permission.
a. raid your home when you are not there and seize your devices and move the coin
b. have a warrant when you are there, they dont need your permission then
c. arrest you, and force you to comply. 'agree under protest/duress' is not the same as giving permission
d. destroy your equipment

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Wiwo on December 31, 2021, 12:36:06 AM

Bitcoin is the edge above government oppression and economic freedom of its users since Bitcoin decentralization prevents government control of it that allows its holder to attain total financial freedom.

I believe that would depend on how you store, and HODL your Bitcoin. Some users or entities who use custodial cryptocurrency storage services will learn, “Not your keys, not your coins”, the hard way.

Xapo and Bitgo. Who uses them? Michael Saylor? El Salvador? Cool

Wiwo

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Bitcoin is the edge above government oppression and economic freedom of its users since Bitcoin decentralization prevents government control of it that allows its holder to attain total financial freedom.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Sterbens on December 20, 2021, 08:33:26 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 14, 2021, 12:40:03 AM

I believe Bitcoin is for all, whether an individual, a financial institution, or a government/state entity. It’s a permissionless, open protocol for anyone who wants to use it for its main value proposition = Censorship-Resistance. OR as a back up/hedge/fall back in case of the people in the government/Central Banks loses control of the financial system.

This is the statement I want to hear. Bitcoin for all is not reserved for anyone and any group, nor any institution. Bitcoin comes to anyone offering freedom of what you should have and anyone who adopts Bitcoin be it governments, state systems, then gradually when large inflation occurs in all your countries and adopting countries are saved.

Bitcoin is not only HODLed as a hedge against inflation. Cool

Not your vault, not your Gold.

Bitcoin will be HODLed, not just by individuals rich or poor, but by smaller nation-states as well, then the big ones will follow.

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Quote from: Tellek Garing on December 13, 2021, 01:21:07 PM

The Santoshi idea to cryptography was the scalability Of all financial transactions which translates to decentralization and financial independence to or users, whether be It individual or government. Take El Salvador for example the country now accepts Bitcoin as a legal tender and also holds a large percentage of the country treasury in Bitcoin. Let say bitcoin rise above $100,000 in the nearest future the country will stand to profit large interest in the investment which will translate into the economic viability which can give the country a hedge over other developing countries.

Op there are only a few countries interested in Bitcoin and that's cause of it is a decentralized currency, Bitcoin is much more suitable for an individual than for the government, as you know, the government wants control and they want to be in charge of everything, they do not want to adopt the Bitcoin network cause it doesn't give them the control they want, I also do not consider Bitcoin as a tool for economic development, Bitcoin is still in its early/speculative/volatile stage for it to be a determinant in a countries economic affairs.

Having said that, individuals and organizations need Bitcoin more than the government does, they want to escape inflation which is most times caused by policies of the government, they also want to control their funds themselves, taking it away from the hands of the government, many people also want to be their own bank etc, all of these and many more of the advantages of Bitcoin has quite a lot of positives for people and institutions that have chosen to adopt Bitcoin. But as for the government they'll rather ban/sanction Bitcoin just to maintain their dominance/control over the finances of their citizens.

famososMuertos

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Your op, although it allows a glimpse of where your idea is going ... This is constantly repeated with other contexts, but in the long run they have the same feeling, believing that bitcoin is the solution.

Yes!! A good alternative appeared but it must be given its proper use according to each economy, bitcoin will work correctly as an economic tool to the extent that each society interprets it and consequently each government should adapt it according to what bitcoin is and represents for individuals and not to veto or limit you for the benefit of political interests.

El Salvador lives that dilemma!!

dezoel

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People there are making use of a wallet that was created by the government. In this way I would say that it isn’t really a freedom for them, because their government would still be able to look into their transactions and monitor everything they do, which in turn defeats the main purpose of bitcoin.

So, these people don’t really freedom, the only thing I can say is their economy is likely standing a good chance at recovering since they have a lot of their treasury invested in bitcoin. So, if the market price should reach $100,000 like you have said, then it is possible that what they have invested in there (their treasury) is going to be increased in value and that’s really going to help the economy of the country.

Tellek Garing

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Quote from: taufik123 on December 20, 2021, 11:04:08 AM

Quote from: Dhaniii on December 20, 2021, 09:52:48 AM

Owning bitcoin can't say you have economic freedom, because in general getting into the crypto world is vulnerable to pure risk when you can't control it like a panic sell like this week bitcoin is experiencing a very sharp decline from the price of $68k back to $45k, the market which is very risky if it can not be controlled.

Entering the crypto world is very vulnerable, especially if you don't have any knowledge of crypto. Trading and investing in crypto requires knowing what the risks and limitations are. panic sell, panic buy and FOMO occur because there is no proper preparation. the sharp decline in bitcoin as it is today makes all the altcoins experience a great deal, the market is bearish. Whales are taking advantage. Whales can control market prices but cannot be completely controlled.

This is the reason cryptocurrency is referred to as a highly volatile investment, as the country around the world and individuals adoption of Bitcoin against the traditional financial system that has been plaque with the third party system.

24Kt

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Quote from: maju69 on December 20, 2021, 01:06:51 PM

El Salvador as a country is really in front of us and will become the fastest growing country in terms of technological development. Since El Salvador adopted bitcoin, all the island countries thought that bitcoin existed and gradually wanted to get to know bitcoin more closely. In times of economic crisis bitcoin presents a great opportunity. El Salvador, on the other hand, has gone a step further. If in the end bitcoin touches the price of $100,000, it will not only be a country that benefits, but also the only country in the world that is safe from the dangers of inflation.

I have to agree that the move of El Salvador towards crypto is really a bold one. But what I am curious is that once Bukele's term is over, will his successor continue what he has started? So for his successor to continue his crypto initiatives, there should be economic improvement during his remaining years with the promotion of bitcoin or crypto in their financial market.

Quote from: taufik123 on December 20, 2021, 11:04:08 AM

Quote from: Dhaniii on December 20, 2021, 09:52:48 AM

Owning bitcoin can't say you have economic freedom, because in general getting into the crypto world is vulnerable to pure risk when you can't control it like a panic sell like this week bitcoin is experiencing a very sharp decline from the price of $68k back to $45k, the market which is very risky if it can not be controlled.

Entering the crypto world is very vulnerable, especially if you don't have any knowledge in crypto. Trading and investing in crypto requires knowing what the risks and limitations are. panic sell, panic buy and FOMO occur because there is no proper preparation. the sharp decline in bitcoin as it is today makes all the altcoins experience a great deal, the market is bearish. Whales are taking advantage. Whales are able to control market prices but cannot be completely controlled.

You will only have economic freedom in this market if you know what you are doing. But if you are not doing good, I don't think you will say you have economic freedom in this market.

maju69

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El Salvador as a country is really in front of us and will become the fastest growing country in terms of technological development. Since El Salvador adopted bitcoin, all the island countries thought that bitcoin existed and gradually wanted to get to know bitcoin more closely. In times of economic crisis bitcoin presents a great opportunity. El Salvador, on the other hand, has gone a step further. If in the end bitcoin touches the price of $100,000, it will not only be a country that benefits, but also the only country in the world that is safe from the dangers of inflation.

LUCKMCFLY

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Quote from: Tellek Garing on December 13, 2021, 01:21:07 PM

The Santoshi idea to cryptography was the scalability Of all financial transactions which translates to decentralization and financial independence to or users, whether be It individual or government. Take El Salvador for example the country now accepts Bitcoin as a legal tender and also holds a large percentage of the country treasury in Bitcoin. Let say bitcoin rise above $100,000 in the nearest future the country will stand to profit large interest in the investment which will translate into the economic viability which can give the country a hedge over other developing countries.

You are right and this is something that very few give the relevant importance, however we can evaluate another scenario, which is that they will not drop the price of BTC so much because the country has made many purchases of BTC and they did not buy To lose, they bought because they know very well the potential that BTC has, it is true that if it reaches $ 100k, massive dumps will occur, but it must also be seen that when it passes $ 100k it could drag marks of $ 150k onwards. Only when taking into account the S2F model plus some Wall Street experts do these seem to be very encouraging forecasts, something remarkable for anyone to put their money in BTC confidently.

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Quote from: Dhaniii on December 20, 2021, 09:52:48 AM

Owning bitcoin can't say you have economic freedom, because in general getting into the crypto world is vulnerable to pure risk when you can't control it like a panic sell like this week bitcoin is experiencing a very sharp decline from the price of $68k back to $45k, the market which is very risky if it can not be controlled.

Entering the crypto world is very vulnerable, especially if you don't have any knowledge in crypto. Trading and investing in crypto requires knowing what the risks and limitations are. panic sell, panic buy and FOMO occur because there is no proper preparation. the sharp decline in bitcoin as it is today makes all the altcoins experience a great deal, the market is bearish. Whales are taking advantage. Whales are able to control market prices but cannot be completely controlled.

Swordsoffreedom

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Quote from: Dhaniii on December 20, 2021, 09:52:48 AM

Quote from: Tellek Garing on December 13, 2021, 01:21:07 PM

The Santoshi idea to cryptography was the scalability Of all financial transactions which translates to decentralization and financial independence to or users, whether be It individual or government. Take El Salvador for example the country now accepts Bitcoin as a legal tender and also holds a large percentage of the country treasury in Bitcoin. Let say bitcoin rise above $100,000 in the nearest future the country will stand to profit large interest in the investment which will translate into the economic viability which can give the country a hedge over other developing countries.

Owning bitcoin can't say you have economic freedom, because in general getting into the crypto world is vulnerable to pure risk when you can't control it like a panic sell like this week bitcoin is experiencing a very sharp decline from the price of $68k back to $45k, the market which is very risky if it can not be controlled.

I've been waiting for months to get to where you see the risk. Usually, I buy bitcoin every month, but I saved some money when the bitcoin market dumped in December so I bought some coins at dip. That's the decent thing to do, and it should end there. Those who buy Bitcoin and hold it long-term will benefit the most in this dip. At $45k it is energizing, soon to be on the way to the new ATH

MrcMrc

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Quote from: Poker Player on December 14, 2021, 01:46:37 AM

I see the OP's message as too optimistic. Bitcoin can be a tool for liberation but for those of us who use it P2P mainly. Those who use it through decentralized exchanges and custoddial wallets we can't say they are very liberated.

And then the OP mentions the price rise, which to me is a consequence of the essence of Bitcoin, but we can't rely on it. The most important part is the first one.

Well, I will not say the ops is overconfidence because when it comes to decentralized financial services Bitcoin happen to come into four play as its users are free from the banks and government over-involvement in financial dealings.

Dhaniii

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Quote from: Tellek Garing on December 13, 2021, 01:21:07 PM

The Santoshi idea to cryptography was the scalability Of all financial transactions which translates to decentralization and financial independence to or users, whether be It individual or government. Take El Salvador for example the country now accepts Bitcoin as a legal tender and also holds a large percentage of the country treasury in Bitcoin. Let say bitcoin rise above $100,000 in the nearest future the country will stand to profit large interest in the investment which will translate into the economic viability which can give the country a hedge over other developing countries.

Owning bitcoin can't say you have economic freedom, because in general getting into the crypto world is vulnerable to pure risk when you can't control it like a panic sell like this week bitcoin is experiencing a very sharp decline from the price of $68k back to $45k, the market which is very risky if it can not be controlled.

Topic: Bitcoin the fundamental tool for economic liberation/independence (Read 311 times)