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Topic: Bitcoin trades the inequity of dynastic power for the inequity of early adoption - page 3. (Read 11076 times)

hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

Sure, it's like that in pretty much every country. But here's the thing:

If Bitcoin is as successful as everyone hopes it is, everyone will have a store of money that the government cannot touch. They can't freeze it, they can't seize it, they can't tax it, they cant trace it.

Imagine what that will mean to governments.

The honest part of the government that collects taxes will suffer

The dishonest part that splurges favors on friends and cronies will already be in the take .......just that it will be far more difficult to prove that they took bribes !!! This will be parallel economy of un comparable ....un imaginable proportions



Do you realize that if bribes don't work blackmail was used instead? Politicians don't get a choice to be corrupt or not! They either take bribes or get blackmailed or they aren't allowed to get elected. You get rid of the bribes and the political influence will be distributed based on who has the most dirt on who and who can generate the most blackmail on this or that politician. Since everyone has nudes somewhere floating around on the Internet or has done something regrettable, they'll just control the political atmosphere by making threats and fear if bribes didn't exist.

So to worry about Bitcoin being used to bribe people is a minor threat compared to what goes on right now without Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just another currency, but if people want to bribe they can offer favors and don't need Bitcoin. If people want control they can use fear and threats as they always do. This is why it's naive to think Bitcoin billionaires will suddenly rule the earth, those billionaires will not be able to go up against orgnanized crime and honestly I'm glad we don't know their names.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

Sure, it's like that in pretty much every country. But here's the thing:

If Bitcoin is as successful as everyone hopes it is, everyone will have a store of money that the government cannot touch. They can't freeze it, they can't seize it, they can't tax it, they cant trace it.

Imagine what that will mean to governments.

The honest part of the government that collects taxes will suffer

The dishonest part that splurges favors on friends and cronies will already be in the take .......just that it will be far more difficult to prove that they took bribes !!! This will be parallel economy of un comparable ....un imaginable proportions

Yes, but where does that dishonest part of the government get the money to splurge?

From the honest part. Which will be collapsing under it's own - and especially the dishonest part's - weight.


Exactly. And to think that the dishonest part of government didn't already have the ability to hide money? Bitcoin didn't invent hiding money. Trillions of dollars were seized just recently in the range of 30+ trillion which is 3 times the size of the US GDP. They are already hiding money and it's always been like that since the start. Billionaires don't have to worry about taxes and honestly I don't think anyone should be taxed for saving, that is bullshit.

If you save money in Bitcoin you shouldn't get taxed. If you cash out then you should get taxed. It's that simple. The elites already have their saved money so why can't the masses save money too?
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
I was studying cryptocurrencies before there was a Bitcoin, and I knew about it when first hearing about it during the bailout crisis. I heard again during the Occupy Wallstreet. I would be one of those early adopters except I got side tracked not thinking it would recover so fast from $2.

Sad that you didn't jump in

Still I think you were NOT part of the early Creators or the early elite

You were outside

That made a big difference



I was outside because I was too much of a coward to put myself at that kind of risk. I thought the insiders were gonna be harassed by the feds and shut down like E-gold. I'm actually shocked it didn't happen but my guess is because of the Arab spring, the new Presidency, and the budget politics, I think Obama simply doesn't mind Bitcoin or doesn't care. In a way Bitcoin just happened to exist at just the right time, with just the right President, and just the right environment to gain support and not get shut down.

I think at this point the economy is so bad and the budget is so locked up that shutting down Bitcoin would not be politically correct to do right after bailing out the banks. I admit because I did not have the balls to get involved with Bitcoin earlier that I do not deserve the status that those who had the balls should receive.

hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Why create something targeted at instant transactions (like a Paypal) or to be used as a currency (like the USD) but design it to have the economic behaviour of stock market? That makes no sense. What we see here is that the effort needed to get 10-15 coins today is pretty much the same level of effort and risk that 1 year ago would give you hundred of thousands.

The main problem here is not the fact that early adopters have more, this is fine. The main problem is the sheer scale of the disproportion. We talk about million times more for a comparable risk. People entering the Bitcoin world now risk as much than people entering 1 or 2 years ago.

Xiaoma hit on what I think is the fundamental reason bitcoin will never go mainstream. Some 6 Billion people in the world are much like him. They've never heard of bitcoin, or they've never heard of bitcoin until today. When they show up here they are all going to ask this question over and over again.

"Why should I waste my time and money making you guys really rich? I've got that problem already."


@Xiamo, I can answer your question directly if you'd like, but it would cause a flame war. Probably better to do it in a new thread.

Hint: Bitcoin is not a currency. It is the first commodity ever created by mathematical fiat!

Well.. I think Bitcoin will have a very hard time going mainstream because most people are NOT like me Wink

I only got so late into this because I only found out recently. If I wasn't away from crypto forums for so many years I would be an early adopter too. The only thing I can do now, at the current prices, is to get a dozen coins a month, not more than that. Still, even if I have a net loss so far, I still try to buy more coins because I believe the world needs it. I don't care much about the "getting rich" hype. It is the freedom from central entities control that I value most. Even if I was to lose all my investment on Bitcoin, another crypto-currency will be created that hopefully will have better luck than this one.

Most of the remaining 6 billions don't give a damn about it, to be blunt. They would happily give up all freedom if they were feeling safe and protected. It is the way governments work, and the way humans work.

It's also the way mafias work. That is a protection racket. That kind of political fiat currency is backed by the bullet. People are forced to accept USD or get beat up or killed?  That is what we prefer over Bitcoin? We want to go back to that thug mafia style system based around fear, threats and intimidation?

Bitcoin doesn't have the coercion and intimidation. Maybe some hackers will dox you or put a virus on your computer but that is nothing compared to getting bombed and shot at by snipers because you didn't want to spend the USD. The world needs a global alternative and I'm not even considering myself a globalist, but the world needs a global currency done right and Bitcoin is the first global currency to ever exist. It might not be done right, but it's done first, and the people who are early adopters are taking the risk because WE KNOW.



And how you plan to explain that to "common" people? Don't take it personally, but it seem to me you are only trying to preach to the believers...


You don't have to explain anything. You make an offer to the common people which is better than the offer that centralized banking is making. Bitcoin is just the first offer, some people will accept and some will think it's a ponzi scheme or part of the illuminati. The trick is to keep making additional offers until the people figure out it's in their own self interest to diversify. I think the majority of the people claiming Bitcoins and cryptocurrencies are a ponzi scheme are only saying it because of politics. They cannot accept the fact that anarchists can invent something which actually helps the world, or helps the economy, or which could be useful.

If it took anarchists to invent a global currency or to solve a crisis why should we let politics get in the way of the solution? But for people who aren't rational, they'd rather accept failure than accept a libertarian or "anarchist" solution. The fact is, centralized banking doesn't work very well for the middle class.

So anyone middle class can look at their bank accounts and their retirement(or lack of), or their unemployment check or lack of unemployment, or their loan debt, or any other punishing consequence they have received from centralized banking and decide on their own when they get tired of being punished for politically supporting the status quo.

A person like you or me, we don't have to be punished until our graves to figure out that centralized banking isn't really offering us anything worth a damn besides credit and debt. This isn't even about government, there are parts of the government which I agree with or find important. We need an EPA, we need a USDA and the government to provide national security. We need some government regulations. But I don't see how centralized banks or big banks benefit any one of us. The way to convince the common man to be rational is to ask them what the centralized bank and the status quo is doing for them? Tell them to take a hard long look at their life and their prospects and if they don't think Bitcoin is a good alternative then what are they doing to provide the alternative?

It's easy to bash Bitcoin when you're rich and have stocks in big banks but when you're not benefiting but are being punished from the current system then it's really hard not to like Bitcoin. In fact, since when did it make sense to want taxes, debt, and reduced profit over the long term?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

Sure, it's like that in pretty much every country. But here's the thing:

If Bitcoin is as successful as everyone hopes it is, everyone will have a store of money that the government cannot touch. They can't freeze it, they can't seize it, they can't tax it, they cant trace it.

Imagine what that will mean to governments.

The honest part of the government that collects taxes will suffer

The dishonest part that splurges favors on friends and cronies will already be in the take .......just that it will be far more difficult to prove that they took bribes !!! This will be parallel economy of un comparable ....un imaginable proportions

Yes, but where does that dishonest part of the government get the money to splurge?

From the honest part. Which will be collapsing under it's own - and especially the dishonest part's - weight.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

Sure, it's like that in pretty much every country. But here's the thing:

If Bitcoin is as successful as everyone hopes it is, everyone will have a store of money that the government cannot touch. They can't freeze it, they can't seize it, they can't tax it, they cant trace it.

Imagine what that will mean to governments.

The honest part of the government that collects taxes will suffer

The dishonest part that splurges favors on friends and cronies will already be in the take .......just that it will be far more difficult to prove that they took bribes !!! This will be parallel economy of un comparable ....un imaginable proportions

newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
I was studying cryptocurrencies before there was a Bitcoin, and I knew about it when first hearing about it during the bailout crisis. I heard again during the Occupy Wallstreet. I would be one of those early adopters except I got side tracked not thinking it would recover so fast from $2.

Sad that you didn't jump in

Still I think you were NOT part of the early Creators or the early elite

You were outside

That made a big difference

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

Sure, it's like that in pretty much every country. But here's the thing:

If Bitcoin is as successful as everyone hopes it is, everyone will have a store of money that the government cannot touch. They can't freeze it, they can't seize it, they can't tax it, they cant trace it.

Imagine what that will mean to governments.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
So what? If that happens then we'd all be better off because we'd all have more money too.

If bitcoin proponents say bitcoin will bring in equity and the above happens ...ie super concentration of wealth, I am not sure we could just say so what ?... But we'll... Each one to his opinion

Money doesn't buy political influence though,

In my country it can buy a lot of things including buying politicians, buying political influence, buying this ...buying that ...

In a lot of places it will create a power structure

 
it  just means you'll be the one funding the elections and paying for infrastructure.

In many so called democratic  countries the bottom  99% pay more taxes than the top 1% . It is bottom 1% that face street crime, housing problems, transport problems and so on ....

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
And how you plan to explain that to "common" people? Don't take it personally, but it seem to me you are only trying to preach to the believers...

Your average "average Joe" is waking up pretty quickly. You'd have to be pretty deeply buried in football and beer (the modern age's bread and circuses) to miss the writing on the wall.

Maybe I'm more pessimistic than you are, but I see most people are still in denial. The Euro collapse will be a brutal wake up call.
Then will be USA, where most people think "Euro is fckd but this will never happen here".
Don't get me wrong, most people are. These things tend to start slow, and then suddenly gain momentum after they hit a "critical mass."
Things will likely get much darker before the dawn.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
And how you plan to explain that to "common" people? Don't take it personally, but it seem to me you are only trying to preach to the believers...

Your average "average Joe" is waking up pretty quickly. You'd have to be pretty deeply buried in football and beer (the modern age's bread and circuses) to miss the writing on the wall.

Maybe I'm more pessimistic than you are, but I see most people are still in denial. The Euro collapse will be a brutal wake up call.
Then will be USA, where most people think "Euro is fckd but this will never happen here".
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
And how you plan to explain that to "common" people? Don't take it personally, but it seem to me you are only trying to preach to the believers...

Your average "average Joe" is waking up pretty quickly. You'd have to be pretty deeply buried in football and beer (the modern age's bread and circuses) to miss the writing on the wall.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
Why create something targeted at instant transactions (like a Paypal) or to be used as a currency (like the USD) but design it to have the economic behaviour of stock market? That makes no sense. What we see here is that the effort needed to get 10-15 coins today is pretty much the same level of effort and risk that 1 year ago would give you hundred of thousands.

The main problem here is not the fact that early adopters have more, this is fine. The main problem is the sheer scale of the disproportion. We talk about million times more for a comparable risk. People entering the Bitcoin world now risk as much than people entering 1 or 2 years ago.

Xiaoma hit on what I think is the fundamental reason bitcoin will never go mainstream. Some 6 Billion people in the world are much like him. They've never heard of bitcoin, or they've never heard of bitcoin until today. When they show up here they are all going to ask this question over and over again.

"Why should I waste my time and money making you guys really rich? I've got that problem already."


@Xiamo, I can answer your question directly if you'd like, but it would cause a flame war. Probably better to do it in a new thread.

Hint: Bitcoin is not a currency. It is the first commodity ever created by mathematical fiat!

Well.. I think Bitcoin will have a very hard time going mainstream because most people are NOT like me Wink

I only got so late into this because I only found out recently. If I wasn't away from crypto forums for so many years I would be an early adopter too. The only thing I can do now, at the current prices, is to get a dozen coins a month, not more than that. Still, even if I have a net loss so far, I still try to buy more coins because I believe the world needs it. I don't care much about the "getting rich" hype. It is the freedom from central entities control that I value most. Even if I was to lose all my investment on Bitcoin, another crypto-currency will be created that hopefully will have better luck than this one.

Most of the remaining 6 billions don't give a damn about it, to be blunt. They would happily give up all freedom if they were feeling safe and protected. It is the way governments work, and the way humans work.

It's also the way mafias work. That is a protection racket. That kind of political fiat currency is backed by the bullet. People are forced to accept USD or get beat up or killed?  That is what we prefer over Bitcoin? We want to go back to that thug mafia style system based around fear, threats and intimidation?

Bitcoin doesn't have the coercion and intimidation. Maybe some hackers will dox you or put a virus on your computer but that is nothing compared to getting bombed and shot at by snipers because you didn't want to spend the USD. The world needs a global alternative and I'm not even considering myself a globalist, but the world needs a global currency done right and Bitcoin is the first global currency to ever exist. It might not be done right, but it's done first, and the people who are early adopters are taking the risk because WE KNOW.



And how you plan to explain that to "common" people? Don't take it personally, but it seem to me you are only trying to preach to the believers...
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
And to anyone who doesn't like Bitcoin, nothing is stopping any of you from taking the code and forking it and coming up with something better. To diss Bitcoin but not to want to do the work to support ANY alternative cryptocurrency is really saying you just support fiat currencies no matter what the result.

And that is just plain stupid. The results matter and the results should determine what you support. If the results of the US dollar and Euro were so great then why are all of us in debt right now? Why are so many of us educated but unemployed? Whether you go to college and receive debt or just the fact that you live in the USA and accept USD, you are in debt. In debt to what and why? How are you supposed to pay that debt back? Be a slave?

If that is the only alternative, which is basically to work for free to pay off some debt which we don't even know where it came from to people we don't even know, or we can deal in Bitcoins and pay off the debt in our own way, on our own terms, with our speculation bubbles and cryptocurrencies and other technologies so be it. We have nothing to lose.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Why create something targeted at instant transactions (like a Paypal) or to be used as a currency (like the USD) but design it to have the economic behaviour of stock market? That makes no sense. What we see here is that the effort needed to get 10-15 coins today is pretty much the same level of effort and risk that 1 year ago would give you hundred of thousands.

The main problem here is not the fact that early adopters have more, this is fine. The main problem is the sheer scale of the disproportion. We talk about million times more for a comparable risk. People entering the Bitcoin world now risk as much than people entering 1 or 2 years ago.

Xiaoma hit on what I think is the fundamental reason bitcoin will never go mainstream. Some 6 Billion people in the world are much like him. They've never heard of bitcoin, or they've never heard of bitcoin until today. When they show up here they are all going to ask this question over and over again.

"Why should I waste my time and money making you guys really rich? I've got that problem already."


@Xiamo, I can answer your question directly if you'd like, but it would cause a flame war. Probably better to do it in a new thread.

Hint: Bitcoin is not a currency. It is the first commodity ever created by mathematical fiat!

Well.. I think Bitcoin will have a very hard time going mainstream because most people are NOT like me Wink

I only got so late into this because I only found out recently. If I wasn't away from crypto forums for so many years I would be an early adopter too. The only thing I can do now, at the current prices, is to get a dozen coins a month, not more than that. Still, even if I have a net loss so far, I still try to buy more coins because I believe the world needs it. I don't care much about the "getting rich" hype. It is the freedom from central entities control that I value most. Even if I was to lose all my investment on Bitcoin, another crypto-currency will be created that hopefully will have better luck than this one.

Most of the remaining 6 billions don't give a damn about it, to be blunt. They would happily give up all freedom if they were feeling safe and protected. It is the way governments work, and the way humans work.

It's also the way mafias work. That is a protection racket. That kind of political fiat currency is backed by the bullet. People are forced to accept USD or get beat up or killed?  That is what we prefer over Bitcoin? We want to go back to that thug mafia style system based around fear, threats and intimidation?

Bitcoin doesn't have the coercion and intimidation. Maybe some hackers will dox you or put a virus on your computer but that is nothing compared to getting bombed and shot at by snipers because you didn't want to spend the USD. The world needs a global alternative and I'm not even considering myself a globalist, but the world needs a global currency done right and Bitcoin is the first global currency to ever exist. It might not be done right, but it's done first, and the people who are early adopters are taking the risk because WE KNOW.

full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
Why create something targeted at instant transactions (like a Paypal) or to be used as a currency (like the USD) but design it to have the economic behaviour of stock market? That makes no sense. What we see here is that the effort needed to get 10-15 coins today is pretty much the same level of effort and risk that 1 year ago would give you hundred of thousands.

The main problem here is not the fact that early adopters have more, this is fine. The main problem is the sheer scale of the disproportion. We talk about million times more for a comparable risk. People entering the Bitcoin world now risk as much than people entering 1 or 2 years ago.

Xiaoma hit on what I think is the fundamental reason bitcoin will never go mainstream. Some 6 Billion people in the world are much like him. They've never heard of bitcoin, or they've never heard of bitcoin until today. When they show up here they are all going to ask this question over and over again.

"Why should I waste my time and money making you guys really rich? I've got that problem already."


@Xiamo, I can answer your question directly if you'd like, but it would cause a flame war. Probably better to do it in a new thread.

Hint: Bitcoin is not a currency. It is the first commodity ever created by mathematical fiat!

Well.. I think Bitcoin will have a very hard time going mainstream because most people are NOT like me Wink

I only got so late into this because I only found out recently. If I wasn't away from crypto forums for so many years I would be an early adopter too. The only thing I can do now, at the current prices, is to get a dozen coins a month, not more than that. Still, even if I have a net loss so far, I still try to buy more coins because I believe the world needs it. I don't care much about the "getting rich" hype. It is the freedom from central entities control that I value most. Even if I was to lose all my investment on Bitcoin, another crypto-currency will be created that hopefully will have better luck than this one.

Most of the remaining 6 billions don't give a damn about it, to be blunt. They would happily give up all freedom if they were feeling safe and protected. It is the way governments work, and the way humans work.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
It's not a bug, it's a feature Cheesy This will be very pretty transfer of wealth to libertarians, anarchists, agorists... Cheesy

+1

And its is also pretty funny to see people here crying that they didnt know about Bitcoins couple of years ago. If Bitcoin will succeed everyone buying Bitcoins now will still be early adopter.


Yeah but you got greedy people in here who are jealous of people who will be billionaires even though they will probably have hundreds of thousands of dollars themselves if that happens.

So what if I'm never a billionaire or millionaire? That isn't what attracted me to Bitcoin in the first place nor most people on this site. Most people were attracted to Bitcoin because it's an interesting technology or because they want to save their money in it. Most of us aren't going to be rich and Bitcoin probably aren't going to be worth millions each. But if Bitcoins are worth $10,000 each or $50,000 each then ALL of us are going to be pretty damn happy except for the guy thinking it's a plot by Goldman Sachs to make us richer.

Honestly if that is the plot then for once the right people are having a chance to make money in society. Just because you make a few thousand or a few million it doesn't mean you'll suddenly be running things. And I don't understand the arguments against being an early adopter or the arguments that Bitcoin is somehow unethical. It's only unethical if people get rich from it but it was ethical when each Bitcoin were worth a fraction of a cent?

Satoshi deserves to be a billionaire. He invented something of great value to the world. The early adopters (that would include us), are risk takers but also lucky. Look at my name and you'll understand my attitude on it. That being said I don't think being rich and successful is a bad thing and if libertarian computer nerds are successful then whats wrong with that? It beats prison doesn't it? It beats the alternatives of whatever life the current oligarchs have charted out. I'll take my chances with Satoshi.


sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
It's not a bug, it's a feature Cheesy This will be very pretty transfer of wealth to libertarians, anarchists, agorists... Cheesy

+1

And its is also pretty funny to see people here crying that they didnt know about Bitcoins couple of years ago. If Bitcoin will succeed everyone buying Bitcoins now will still be early adopter.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
Given the option of sticking with what we've got, or a wealthy elite of cryptography geeks, I'll take my chances with the crypto geeks.

I'm going long on Hot Pockets...
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
They just didn't know it existed at all. Including me.

BTC was quite well known in libertarian and anarcho-capitalist circles, even then.

It's not a bug, it's a feature Cheesy This will be very pretty transfer of wealth to libertarians, anarchists, agorists... Cheesy

OK if you say that was on purpose then is fine Wink I was just worried it was an accident. Tongue

I don't usually frequent political circles. yawn. I'm too busy doing stuff than talking about stuff, how silly.
Now I know that was a huge mistake Cheesy

EDIT - the original message was not looking ironic enough Wink don't take me too seriously when I'm kidding
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