Pages:
Author

Topic: Bitcoin will *not* attack/fight/etc central banking and fiat currency (Read 144952 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I am surprised by the comments I'm receiving.  One thing that surprises me is that some people have actually framed me as a supporter of central banking and fiat currency, as well as someone who does not appreciate the power of bitcoin.

I didn't read those comments like that. People are just venting their emotions about banking, which is understandable.

We have a better system, which can potentially make banking irrelevant for us and I agree it's more healthy to think of all the good things it offers, rather than simply see it as a tool to attack things we don't like.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1010
Professional Native Greek Translator (2000+ done)
bitcoin will break the banks. nowadays banks are looking at the tech and how they can use it.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Sure, there's a bit of room for ambiguity, but not much

I agree, although where there is the potential for a little wiggle room, we should acknowledge it and encourage people to explore the possibility.

My take has always been Bitcoin was ambitious beyond belief. It attempts to bootstrap a technology, protocol, currency and monetary revolution in one. It's actually incredibly impressive that in 5 years it appears to be coming close to realising this goal. If it only achieved 1/4 of its aim, it will be an outstanding success.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Whether Satoshi sat down to create an explicity weaponised technology is up for debate.
Sure, there's a bit of room for ambiguity, but not much:

Quote from: Nick Szabo
While the security technology is very far from trivial, the "why" was by far the biggest stumbling block -- nearly everybody who heard the general idea thought it was a very bad idea. Myself, Wei Dai, and Hal Finney were the only people I know of who liked the idea (or in Dai's case his related idea) enough to pursue it to any significant extent until Nakamoto (assuming Nakamoto is not really Finney or Dai). Only Finney (RPOW) and Nakamoto were motivated enough to actually implement such a scheme.

The "why" requires coming to an accurate understanding of the nature of two difficult and almost always misunderstood topics, namely trust and the nature of money. The overlap between cryptographic experts and libertarians who might sympathize with such a "gold bug" idea is already rather small, since most cryptographic experts earn their living in academia and share its political biases. Even among this uncommon intersection as stated very few people thought it was a good idea. Even gold bugs didn't care for it because we already have real gold rather than mere bits and we can pay online simply by issuing digital certificates based on real gold stored in real vaults, a la the formerly popular e-gold. On top of the plethora of these misguided reactions and criticisms, there remain many open questions and arguable points about these kinds of technologies and currencies, many of which can only be settled by actually fielding them and seeing how they work in practice, both in economic and security terms.

Here are some more specific reasons why the ideas behind Bitcoin were very far from obvious:

(1) only a few people had read of the bit gold ideas, which although I came up with them in 1998 (at the same time and on the same private mailing list where Dai was coming up with b-money -- it's a long story) were mostly not described in public until 2005, although various pieces of it I described earlier, for example the crucial Byzantine-replicated chain-of-signed-transactions part of it which I generalized into what I call secure property titles.

(2) Hardly anybody actually understands money. Money just doesn't work like that, I was told fervently and often. Gold couldn't work as money until it was already shiny or useful for electronics or something else besides money, they told me. (Do insurance services also have to start out useful for something else, maybe as power plants?) This common argument coming ironically from libertarians who misinterpreted Menger's account of the origin of money as being the only way it could arise (rather than an account of how it could arise) and, in the same way misapplying Mises' regression theorem. Even though I had rebutted these arguments in my study of the origins of money, which I humbly suggest should be should be required reading for anybody debating the economics of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007

This is a fact.  I think it is a fitting quote for the genesis block.  It reminds us of the flaws of central banking and fiat currency. 
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I am surprised by the comments I'm receiving.  One thing that surprises me is that some people have actually framed me as a supporter of central banking and fiat currency, as well as someone who does not appreciate the power of bitcoin.  If you look at my post history (or even read through this thread), you'll see I'm a strong supporter of bitcoin.  I agree that it is a disruptive technology that if widely adopted would make central banking and fiat currency less relevant.  

The other thing the surprises me is how quickly people are willing to ascribe motives and ideologies to Satoshi Nakamoto.  Satoshi Nakamoto was a brilliant mathematician and computer scientist who gave the world a potentially game-changing system that allows us to more effectively store wealth and exchange value with each other.  He is apolitical and has no human vices.  

The individual or group of individuals that created the alias "Satoshi Nakamoto" could have been anyone!  It could have been an angry computer-scientist with extreme anarchist leanings, it could have been a small group at the NSA working without the approval or knowledge of their superiors, it could have been some random professor who did it just for the lulz.  I don't think we will ever know, and nor do I think it matters.  

This is why Satoshi had to disappear.  What matters is what bitcoin is, not what you think the motives and ideology of its creators are.  
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1912
The Concierge of Crypto
If you become a tyrant, expect your country to have a resistance movement or rebels. Happens in every dictatorship in the entire world.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Peter R everyone has his own opinion. Well in my opinion bitcoin popularity and usage shall escalate as time passes by while fiat currency popularity shall diminish as time passes by. So just wait and watch fiat currency replaced with new revolution currency bitcoin soon.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
> My point again was if you say bitcoin is intended as a weapon to damage central banks like Paul Krugman did, then you are using loaded words to appeal to people's ideology and preconceived belief system

Whether Satoshi sat down to create an explicity weaponised technology is up for debate. You can’t deny, though, that Bitcoin is an implicitly weaponised system - its successful uptake will damage central banking, possibly fatally. The Krugmans of the world recognise this, imo. Recently, there was a video interview with Kruggers on Bloomberg or CNBC when he actually sounded as though he was in despair when forced to acknowledge that Bitcoin had not yet died. I think he said something about ‘we’ (refering to him and his cronies) not understanding why ‘it’ (refering to bitcoin) was still around when his theories don’t allow for it.

I read his latest NYT piece as a lame attempt at one of the first shots across our bow. They are starting to adopt the ‘then they fight you’ mode.   Cool
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 501
Bitcoin will simply mind its own business, as we work towards building a better way to store wealth and exchange payments with each other.  If central banking or fiat currency becomes less relevant during this process, then this is just technological evolution at work.  

I wrote this post in response to Paul Krugman's latest "Bitcoin is Evil" piece (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=1&).  In Dr. Krugman's post, bitcoin is referred to as "a weapon intended to damage central banking and money issuing banks."

This is not true.  Bitcoin is an experimental system that attempts to solve the double-spend problem in a trustless manner.  As SheHadManHands notes, it is a practical implementation of a system that may suffer from "the 60 year problem in computer science, known as the Two Generals' Problem. It enables a decentralized network to achieve consensus on a ledger of assets, without requiring any trust between parties."


I propose we take the high road as we move forward with bitcoin.  Here's what I mean:  If you say bitcoin is a weapon designed to damage central banking, you sound angry and hostile.  If you say that bitcoin is a ground-breaking peer-to-peer electronic cash system, and politely discuss that its widespread adoption may make existing financial systems less relevant and motivate governments to re-think antiquated tax laws, you sound intelligent and open-minded.  

Do you understand what happens when your money is put into a bank, what happens to your savings? It's in part loaned out but most importantly it's used to pay the GDP (sp?) the bad credit/loans which the banks are still receiving bailouts for. So bitcoin is a threat to the banking system, if you take 75% of your money out and put it into bitcoin which the banks have not access to or control over what do you think will start to happen?

You really need to think this stuff through you know! This is why the banks and governments are fighting bitcoin because it's hurting them, but at the same time they got all of us into this mess that they themselves should of stopped or been forced to stop sooner.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1039
My view is that BTC just showed system which is to perfect for banks to accept it.
They know BTC is just start for this race, but one day fiat and central bank will become useless.
You can buy now normal items from silver,gold, phones to cars and homes for BTC.

Small fees, no taxation and no problem someone will look in to your pockets(bank account) and have tools to block you from using funds will make BTc and other crypto really big player on financial markets.

Subways accepting BTC, bitgild and others. sky is the limit this days.




I agree with everything except the no taxation part. The most fair tax is a value added tax. If a sovereign nation creates a cryptocurrency and "code" in it the VAT and only return it in cases where it does not apply, this suddenly makes every transaction in a network 100% taxable by the government. (unless people just traded private keys). This technology could be used to make an excellent currency on behalf of a nation.


A value added tax is the fairest of all taxation methods. Rich and poor alike pay the exact same tax. A tax like this in conjunction with universal basic income can create utopias. This technology could make this happen.

At this moment there is no tax and thats why i mention that.
hero member
Activity: 1492
Merit: 763
Life is a taxable event
My view is that BTC just showed system which is to perfect for banks to accept it.
They know BTC is just start for this race, but one day fiat and central bank will become useless.
You can buy now normal items from silver,gold, phones to cars and homes for BTC.

Small fees, no taxation and no problem someone will look in to your pockets(bank account) and have tools to block you from using funds will make BTc and other crypto really big player on financial markets.

Subways accepting BTC, bitgild and others. sky is the limit this days.




I agree with everything except the no taxation part. The most fair tax is a value added tax. If a sovereign nation creates a cryptocurrency and "code" in it the VAT and only return it in cases where it does not apply, this suddenly makes every transaction in a network 100% taxable by the government. (unless people just traded private keys). This technology could be used to make an excellent currency on behalf of a nation.


A value added tax is the fairest of all taxation methods. Rich and poor alike pay the exact same tax. A tax like this in conjunction with universal basic income can create utopias. This technology could make this happen.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1039
My view is that BTC just showed system which is to perfect for banks to accept it.
They know BTC is just start for this race, but one day fiat and central bank will become useless.
You can buy now normal items from silver,gold, phones to cars and homes for BTC.

Small fees, no taxation and no problem someone will look in to your pockets(bank account) and have tools to block you from using funds will make BTc and other crypto really big player on financial markets.

Subways accepting BTC, bitgild and others. sky is the limit this days.


full member
Activity: 156
Merit: 100
I admit Peter that you can't be 100 percent sure of Satoshi's motives. And you're free to market Bitcoin how you like, and for the western markets it could be better to market it just as a technology.

But you're seriously deluding yourself if you think Satoshi didn't want Bitcoin to ultimately destroy dishonest money when his statements lean that way. And just as justus pointed out, that if successful, Bitcoin will act like a weapon against the banksters' ill gotten gains.

So how does it differ from a weapon if it can destroy a good amount of their wealth? Is it the intent only? Does the intent make any difference to the outcome?
legendary
Activity: 2026
Merit: 1034
Fill Your Barrel with Bitcoins!
Hey it's a free market right? Let the best product win and let the people decide.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Let's not pretend that this is not disruptive but let's not pretend that somehow it is unfair for people to freely trade with one another.

Well said.  Indeed, bitcoin is disruptive.  Bitcoin allows people to freely trade with each other and this is fair and right. 
hero member
Activity: 1492
Merit: 763
Life is a taxable event
Let's face it, the banks have absolutely fucked this world over. Where I come from (Greece) the banks literally added all of this odious debt and drove a whole country to its knees. Now such foreign investors are just buying off people's livelihoods. This is no joke.

We should oppose such arbitrary power. The banks as we speak foreclose people's homes, and bankrupt whole cities. It doesn't matter whether we call bitcoin the bank destroyer or just a new P2P decentralized electronic currency. The fact remains that a lot of middle-men are going to lose a lot of money.

Choosing to enter bitcoin you gain the right to do transactions that are harder to trace and are completely independent from the current system. Let's not pretend that this is not disruptive but let's not pretend that somehow it is unfair for people to freely trade with one another.

From credit cards to ridiculous bank fees, to goverment bailouts the banks have proven to be the weakest link of our modern economy. The dollar is also being controlled and overprinted. I can almost guarantee you that a dollar come year 2020 is going to be worth at least a fifth less than a dollar today.

How insidious does it sound that the federal reserve is not even a part of the treasury? The money of the people should be regulated at the very least by the people's government.

legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1002
This is only one paper but FENCEN could ban BTC because it could be a danger for the supremacy of the dollar .

First China then some other countries and if FENCEN does it what will happen to the BTC in term of valuation ?

Honestly the BTC bubble wasnt good at all for this experience + until BTC is under high speculation BTC has no interest for E-com .

Just an opinion ....

"It doesn’t matter much to the idea of cryptocurrencies whether Bitcoin or its many emulators boom, zoom and crash, there will be cryptocurrencies from here on and they will flourish."

On Dec 27 FinCEN issued an opinion on bitcoin miners.  It was not hostile.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
He chose words that associated bitcoin, and thus also the people that support bitcoin, with certain motives, political leanings, and ideology.
It is highly likely that Satoshi (whomever he, she, or they was) did match those motives and political leanings, however this is not presently falsifiable since we can't ask Satoshi and expect to get a response.
Pages:
Jump to: