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Topic: bitcoincard.org the killer app we have been waiting for? - page 2. (Read 5767 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Yes but there will also be lots of stationary nodes and it won't just be BTC users using this device.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

Have you watched the video? They claim 100 to 300m range. Meters, not miles.

For some perspective, I live in one of the worlds most densely populated countries. We have ~10.000 GSM masts for 10 million people, which still isnt enough to provide complete coverage. GSM has ~20x the range of those cards, which probably means you would need ~400x as many users to get comparable coverage (someone bored enough to do the actual math, be my guest).  

How many active bitcoin users were there again worldwide? Something like 30.000?  Even if ALL of them bought one, and ALL of them gathered in my tiny country, it wouldnt work 99% of the time.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
How many people carry a store or supermarket loyalty card?  This is going to be big.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
Also I won't buy the device unless it can be turned off as I don't want big-brother tracking me every where I go.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
Maybe other company's will buy-in to the device to offer them subsidised but if the parent company makes sure all the cards can communicate with each other then bingo.  Then the data-mining capability's can be turned on/off for btc/loyalty points.  
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Quote
Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.

Not really, because you wouldnt be able to use it 99% of the time.


Alright, how do you come to this conclusion?  Support your position.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Quote
Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.

Not really, because you wouldnt be able to use it 99% of the time. Which also means, almost no one would buy one. Classical chicken and egg problem.

The only approach that I see that makes some sense, is Wallmart and the like giving you one for free, and use it as datamining tool. I dont think its coincidence in the video they stress the cards ability to detect how long you stand before a shelve, customized promotions etc. Thats not a feature that will make bitcoin users gladly pay for it, I for one, would find it a reason not to use it even if it was free. It is something Wallmart might want to buy it for tho.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
I can also see the company being bought out by PayPal or Google dropping the btc wallet and using theirs.  With the new company providing them free or subsidised.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
If it can provide free "im" and definitely if it can provide free "sms" plus a btc wallet I can see lots of bitcoiners paying for one.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I suspect the business model behind these is not to sell them to end users, but rather use them as loyalty cards, access cards etc with added functionality. Consumers would have to get them for free, or this is a non starter.

TBH, I think its a non starter anyway. As others pointed out, there are smartphones who can do all that + so much more so much better.  Though maybe for developing countries? Not sure how much demand there would be for the datamining in those countries tho, which is what I suppose will pay for the card.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
Infrastructure looks to be the critical point. (Cost, security...)

Anyhow, interesting tech. Let's see!
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

"trusted" gateway nodes allow it to connect to the blockchain

granted the idea is whimsical, but its has a COOL factor.

They don't need to be trusted.  I can do exactly the same thing right now using my openwrt wifi router, simply by blocking non-bitcoin port numbers and letting bitcoin port numbers pass unhindered; or by capture and redirection of all client-side traffic to my local bitcoind.  The whole point of bitcoin's structure is that there don't need to be trusted gateways.  There is little to no malicious activities that any particular gateway node could do to any user.  Can't steal their coins.  Can't expect to double-spend against such a device, since it's as likely as not to be somewhere else when coins are sent to it anyway.  (it's a consumer wallet, not a point-of-sale device.)  Can't see how a sybil attack is likely against such a device, for similar reasons.  Having a full blockchain makes such things impossible, but even just having the block headers, merkle trees & copies of input transactions relevant to the addresses that the wallet has private keys for makes pretty much anything unlikely, or at least "costly" enough of a crime to not make the funds that could be found in a random wallet device worthwhile.

The only malicious activity that I can think of that might be possible, is to feed the wallet device false input transaction data, but even if the client accepts them as true, no one else would so the device simply wouldn't be able to spend those coins that it never really had; which might irritate the owner, but he still couldn't lose anything as a result.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

I'd buy one today.

And yes, they could work well, in theory.  And yes, they would need routers in addition to peers, but those would be provided by retailers.  The mesh mechanism is to extend the functional range of such a device, but is inmaterial for a bitcoin device.  A disconnected bitcoin wallet isn't disconnected when you're home, only while you're out using it.  So it can update it's blockchain (assuming it needs it, but it shouldn't) while you are at home or otherwise within wifi range of an open hotspot.  The devices need to be able to broadcast transactions, & hear other transactions, to protect the owner from a possible form of theft by deception.  Namely, if the device didn't broadcast transactions until it could connect to a wifi hotspot, a criminal could pretend to buy the car you were selling on Craigslist, pay you with bitcoin using both your wallet devices, and after you drive away the thug you paid to mug him would destroy his wallet device.  Thus giving the fraudster the chance to overwrite the transaction that he paid with on his own device and keep the funds.  If all bitcoin devices broadcast all transactions immediately, the fraudster in this scenario can't know if the transaction was heard by another wallet device, another person's cell phone, a router connected to the internet or nothing at all.  This lack of certainty removes the potential gain from such a criminal strategy.  It's not really speed of transaction propagation that is critical, but the potential of same.  If bitcoin is ever as popular as Paypal, we can expect that retailers that start accepting bitcoin are going to also invest in a receiver for broadcasted bitcoin transactions, since it's in their own interests to make certain that transactions make it to the Internet as quickly as possible to prevent double spends attacks against themselves.  Although it would be possible to exclude transactions that don't concern the retailer, the additional overhead involved in making such a discriminating router would most often exceed the marginal additional cost of simply forwarding every bitcoin transaction that it hears.  A store the size of WalMart could get away with only one such receiver per store.  A mall might need two or three for all the stores, depending upon it's size and layout.  A bunch of small stores down main street could get together to sponsor one for the whole block, although the costs of such a receiver if you already have Internet access at the store (who doesn't in America anymore?).

Theories aside, there wouldn't need to be a critical mass for such a device to be useful, and in places with retail density, the mesh traffic might actually be counterproductive.  It's when you're far from a retail outlet doing business that such distribution of the transactions are necessary.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

"trusted" gateway nodes allow it to connect to the blockchain

granted the idea is whimsical, but its has a COOL factor.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
I'm interested. Where do I hand my coins over?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.
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