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Topic: Bitcoin.com almost forks the blockchain with buggy BU (Read 2701 times)

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
taking the main role of the network,

if you think devs of any implementation should take the main role. you have already surrendered and missed out on what bitcoin is all about.

you have already given up your independence.
please learn consensus, redeem yourself
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1006
BU doesn't work. It sounds good in practice, "wow automatically adjusted blockchain? just what we need" but in practice it opens a can of worms. Too many possible attack vectors.

If it was as easy I would support a dynamic blocksize, I don't because there are big tradeoffs by doing so that I don't want to deal with. I want to be able to find my bitcoin on my wallet 20 years from now. BU does not give me that peace of mind. They will fuck up hard.

do you even understand bitcoin or consensus.

you do know funds are locked to private keys.
an orphan/reject cannot steal your funds.

but blockstreams future feature mimble wimble can.

its worth reading and learning

but start at the basics of consensus vs bilateral.
as thats what im seeing most r/bitcoin script readers and blocksteam king defenders are mainly not understanding. plus it doesnt take years to learn. so theres no excuse to not spend just 30 minutes learning about consensus(majority agreement stay together) vs bilateral(walk in separate direction splits)

What I do know is BU is shit and nobody that wants to keep holding their digital gold for +1 decade is going to want any of those developers taking the main role of the network, jeopardizing their digital gold holdings by replacing a strong solid bunker with plastic elastic walls.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001

Icebreaker is the last person I would expect to endorse a Peter R gif.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
BU doesn't work. It sounds good in practice, "wow automatically adjusted blockchain? just what we need" but in practice it opens a can of worms. Too many possible attack vectors.

If it was as easy I would support a dynamic blocksize, I don't because there are big tradeoffs by doing so that I don't want to deal with. I want to be able to find my bitcoin on my wallet 20 years from now. BU does not give me that peace of mind. They will fuck up hard.

do you even understand bitcoin or consensus.

you do know funds are locked to private keys.
an orphan/reject cannot steal your funds.

but blockstreams future feature mimble wimble can.

its worth reading and learning

but start at the basics of consensus vs bilateral.
as thats what im seeing most r/bitcoin script readers and blocksteam king defenders are mainly not understanding. plus it doesnt take years to learn. so theres no excuse to not spend just 30 minutes learning about consensus(majority agreement stay together) vs bilateral(walk in separate direction splits)
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
What I ask myself is why did BU nodes allow to screw themselves up, so core nodes should intervene to prevent a catastrophe. No sir, It doesn't characterise BU team as reliable profy

it was a reject.
it would have always been a reject.
it was handled and pushed the side in 3 seconds.
it would have always been pushed the side in 3 seconds.

by the way
https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
care to comment about the other rejects/orphans? that happen alot
oh wait they are core based. im guessing you wont comment
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1006
BU doesn't work. It sounds good in practice, "wow automatically adjusted blockchain? just what we need" but in practice it opens a can of worms. Too many possible attack vectors.

If it was as easy I would support a dynamic blocksize, I don't because there are big tradeoffs by doing so that I don't want to deal with. I want to be able to find my bitcoin on my wallet 20 years from now. BU does not give me that peace of mind. They will fuck up hard.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
because the BU nodes were banned for 24 hours does this mean during that time that any pools that used BU and then found a valid block on the valid chain (assuming they switched to the valid chain eventually) would be lost as they could not broadcast it to the majority nodes?
Likely not. Once the connection is dropped, the node will find another node to connect to. The ban doesn't apply to all the nodes in the network, each will have their individual ban list.

As long as the miner have at least a Core node connected, they should be fine.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
because the BU nodes were banned for 24 hours does this mean during that time that any pools that used BU and then found a valid block on the valid chain (assuming they switched to the valid chain eventually) would be lost as they could not broadcast it to the majority nodes?
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0

leaving the connection open would have done no harm because core nodes already rejected the block.. and the block drama was over in 3 seconds.

What I ask myself is why did BU nodes allow to screw themselves up, so core nodes should intervene to prevent a catastrophe. No sir, It doesn't characterise BU team as reliable profy
legendary
Activity: 4536
Merit: 3188
Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023
How could that have happened? Huh
They changed the code that calculates the block size without understanding how it works, and pushed out the change without any review or testing. This is standard practice for Bitcoin Unlimited developers, and nobody is the least bit surprised that it blew up in their faces. It may be the first time Bitcoin Unlimited users have lost money as a direct result of the developers' incompetence, but it's unlikely to be the last.



leaving the connection open would have done no harm because core nodes already rejected the block..
It harms nodes with limited connection slots. Banning misbehaving nodes frees up slots for correctly behaving nodes. Any node that relays an invalid block is either defective or malicious, and there's no point in maintaining a connection to such nodes.

but by dropping the connections then no longer plays by consensus rules and the two non-communicating nodes could end up following different data. because they no longer allow communication with each other to reject/accept the same data.
They're already following different data, whether they're communicating or not. By definition, there can be no consensus when one node thinks a block is valid and another does not.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
Yes, but you're not talking about Bitcoin, you're talking about a Bitcoin fork. Bitcoin wasn't designed to let users provoke a fork with the GUI, that's how your Bitcoin fork BU was designed.

So much for Honey Badger, it seems bitcoin might have a serious flaw, if what you are saying is correct.
Much cheaper than a 51% attack. Just spin up a handful of non-conforming nodes and mine an invalid block. Boom! And Bitcoin is done for.

and yet this non event of just a reject occuring and thrown aside in 3 seconds. proves consensus works.

what would actually cause the bilateral split. is what core done next in this non-event. by over using the banscore tweaks to drop connections to NODES even when the nodes were not the cause.

leaving the connection open would have done no harm because core nodes already rejected the block.. and the block drama was over in 3 seconds.
but by dropping the connections aswell, they then no longer play by consensus rules and the two non-communicating nodes could end up following different data. because they no longer allow communication with each other to reject/accept the same data.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 544
I thought only Chinese Miners are using BU but according to the author and I read it clearly even Bitcoin.com is using BU in their mining activities. But I guess there is no wrong with it and the mining community should just be wary if an invalid block or a block that is considered illegal with pertains to consensus has been mined. The best thing for bitcoin.com to do is to specify in the contract with the miners that are mining under them that they are using BU. They must also specify the advantages and disadvantages this style of mining will give to the miners.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0

So much for Honey Badger, it seems bitcoin might have a serious flaw, if what you are saying is correct.
Much cheaper than a 51% attack. Just spin up a handful of non-conforming nodes and mine an invalid block. Boom! And Bitcoin is done for.
People would deny fork as other alts
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1020
Yes, but you're not talking about Bitcoin, you're talking about a Bitcoin fork. Bitcoin wasn't designed to let users provoke a fork with the GUI, that's how your Bitcoin fork BU was designed.

So much for Honey Badger, it seems bitcoin might have a serious flaw, if what you are saying is correct.
Much cheaper than a 51% attack. Just spin up a handful of non-conforming nodes and mine an invalid block. Boom! And Bitcoin is done for.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
How could that have happened? Huh Seems those BU guys dont care of anything except their proceeds  Sad
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
A fork most certainly could have happened because of the BU and SPV miners.

As I said, not in any real way, it couldn't.

Those miners make up nearly half of the entire hash rate of the network. If the SPV miners and BU miners began building on the invalid block, then there would be two branches that are just about the same length.

And the moment that the valid chain was 1 block longer than the invalid chain, all miners would abandon the invalid chain.  It might even happen sooner if people looked at what was happening and realized they were wasting time and resources.  Either way, it wouldn't have any real effect on the valid chain.

Riiiiiiiight. So you're saying that because only a minority of the hashrate chose the Unlimited fork, the design of BU doesn't massively lower the bar for those wishing to design and promote their own forks?

"If Bitcoin can't handle it, it was a failure to begin with"

Yes, but you're not talking about Bitcoin, you're talking about a Bitcoin fork. Bitcoin wasn't designed to let users provoke a fork with the GUI, that's how your Bitcoin fork BU was designed.

A fool and his money are soon parted.  That's the way bitcoin (And the world) works.

And if you proceed with your present course of action, you will be parted from yours. There is no value in a system that can be so easily denuded of it's Metcalffe network effect when it splinters into several forks per week.


So, I have a futures contract for you: I will sell you 0.2 ULC: 1 BTC, after any BU chainfork. I will buy in bulk. Generous offer, ends at the end of February.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
A fork most certainly could have happened because of the BU and SPV miners.

As I said, not in any real way, it couldn't.

Those miners make up nearly half of the entire hash rate of the network. If the SPV miners and BU miners began building on the invalid block, then there would be two branches that are just about the same length.

And the moment that the valid chain was 1 block longer than the invalid chain, all miners would abandon the invalid chain.  It might even happen sooner if people looked at what was happening and realized they were wasting time and resources.  Either way, it wouldn't have any real effect on the valid chain.

As we have seen in the July 2015 fork, the SPV miners could accidentally cause this to happen.

And they deserve to waste their time and resources on an invalid chain if they are dumb enough to mine on it.  It won't matter to me or anyone else on the valid chain.  Why should we care?

One chain would probably die off once the human operators got involved as happened with the July 2015 fork eventually, one way or another.

Fixed that for you.

Now those miners should have learned from the July 2015 fork that SPV mining can be problematic, but I don't think any of them have stopped doing SPV mining.

Then they are foolish.  A fool and his money are soon parted.  That's the way bitcoin (And the world) works.

It really all depends on how their validation systems work, but such a scenario is entirely possible as we have seen in the past.

A scenario where foolish people waste time and resources on a foolis endeavor?  Sure, it has happened throughout all of human history.  It isn't going to stop anytime soon.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
A fork most certainly could have happened because of the BU and SPV miners. Those miners make up nearly half of the entire hash rate of the network. If the SPV miners and BU miners began building on the invalid block, then there would be two branches that are just about the same length. As we have seen in the July 2015 fork, the SPV miners could accidentally cause this to happen. One chain would probably die off once the human operators got involved as happened with the July 2015 fork.

it was disregarded in 3 seconds.. a new block would not have built ontop if it..
if it stupidly did. then the reject would "officially" be named an orphan event in your eyes because the reject becomes the parents of the child and the parent and child still end up being cast aside.

WAKE UP

stop making mountains out of mole hills about events that didnt happen and then you meandering into fake narratives of if's and maybes..
. especially when the real problem of the real non event.. which you worry about concerting a bilateral split, would have been caused only by CORES REACTION to the mole hill. by banning the nodes to make the mountain... not due simply to a reject/bad block/invalid block/orphan.

rejects occur alot. orphans happen too. but CORE banning NODES is what would cause bilateral forks.
however sticking to consensus would have just dropped the dodgy block and thats it.. no drama.. gone, forgot about, life moves on without it.. non event

CORE have set the 'banscore' biasedly high for this event. but its funny that core then went and blamed it on non-core nodes for why CORE had so much biased in such a non event.

Now those miners should have learned from the July 2015 fork that SPV mining can be problematic, but I don't think any of them have stopped doing SPV mining. It really all depends on how their validation systems work, but such a scenario is entirely possible as we have seen in the past.

I apologize about some poor word choice in my earlier posts. I will fix them.



Most definitely. I'm certain that there would be a fair amount of support for a proposal (post SegWit) that increases it somewhere between 10-20% yearly. However, there is definitely going to be very little-to-no support for proposal such as the one from Luke-jr. That proposal even goes as far as reducing the current block size. Cheesy
Supposedly Luke-Jr is going to modify it so that by the time the hard fork is predicted to be ready to activate, the period of the smaller blocks has already passed.

both luke Jr and Gmaxwell are devising the worse methods of dynamic block implementation.. maybe not for the intention of breaking the chain to make a point.. but to just to scare people from wanting to accept them as the ruse to then pretend people dont want dynamic blocks..

EG here is a banana, but if i wipe it under my armpit after a sweaty game of tennis, i can make a banana lover decline wanting a banana and then tell the world banana's are now bad because banana lovers refuse to eat banana's.

Gmaxwell wants to mess with the block reward and luke wants to make blocks shrink.. both are silly and are going to fail the user desire.
lets delve into lukes idea.
if all nodes can accept 1.5mb blocks.. they by default wont reject a block of 0.75mb or an 'empty block'.. because bitcoins consensus in that activation is that anything under 1.5mb is acceptable. so there is no need to dowgrade nodes.
much like todays reality we dont need to downgrade nodes consensus rules if a pool decides to create 'empty blocks'

lets delve into gmaxwells desire of an idea.
if pools X wants to increase 25% the pool C makes block with 75% reward. and the the other 25% is handed over to the next block solver.
firstly messing with the block reward is dangerous, so using it as a ploy. makes a dynamic block more dangerous to get people confident about

but not to due with lack of desire for dynamic blocks, but for HOW they are implemented and what penalties/downsides the core devs decide to add to scare their sheep. its obvious even now what their insidious plan is.

like they said 'look the community asked for 2mb or even 4mb.. we are offering them 4mb weight and they are declining' - fully aware of why the community is declining 4mb weight.. but core devs not being ethical to admit the reason for not wanting 4mb of empty gesture
staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
Absolute nonsense.  Unless you are saying that a significant majority of all mining nodes are willing to accept a block larger than 1 megabyte (in which case it is Core that is trying to create a consensus split by refusing to accept the longest chain). No. In this case, a minority of miners would be willing to accept such a block.  As a result the valid chain would quickly grow longer.  Only those nodes foolish enough to accept and mine on top of an invalid block (such as so-called SPV miners) would be affected, and any miner dumb enough to accept an invalid block deserves to waste hash power on a dead chain.
...
No. Not in any real way, it couldn't.  That's a whole lot of FUD and nonsense.  If I didn't know better, I'd think you were just another sig ad spammer.
A fork most certainly could have happened because of the BU and SPV miners. Those miners make up nearly half of the entire hash rate of the network. If the SPV miners and BU miners began building on the invalid block, then there would be two branches that are just about the same length. As we have seen in the July 2015 fork, the SPV miners could accidentally cause this to happen. One chain would probably die off once the human operators got involved as happened with the July 2015 fork.

Now those miners should have learned from the July 2015 fork that SPV mining can be problematic, but I don't think any of them have stopped doing SPV mining. It really all depends on how their validation systems work, but such a scenario is entirely possible as we have seen in the past.

I apologize about some poor word choice in my earlier posts. I will fix them.



Most definitely. I'm certain that there would be a fair amount of support for a proposal (post SegWit) that increases it somewhere between 10-20% yearly. However, there is definitely going to be very little-to-no support for proposal such as the one from Luke-jr. That proposal even goes as far as reducing the current block size. Cheesy
Supposedly Luke-Jr is going to modify it so that by the time the hard fork is predicted to be ready to activate, the period of the smaller blocks has already passed.
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