Bitcoin's 10000 TH network is extremely vulnerable - page 4.

CoinCidental

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Quote from: lnternet on January 08, 2014, 12:41:07 PM

Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

And what is the fear exactly? That big banks will spend a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so they can doublespend on Satoshi Dice?

they make a chain which includes no tx. they will have the longest chain, so your block which has tx in it doesn't get into the chain.

Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

Besides, maybe the mining pools could get together very quickly to balance out the network.

you don't seem to understand the meaning of 51%

its not that simple
if i arrive today with my 51% i cant negate everyone else and the history
of btc

jaked

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If bankers had a fraction of the faith/expectations/awareness in BTC as people here do, they'd be very concerned by it.
Fortunately, they don't.

By the time BTC becomes a real threat to them, it'll be too late for them to stop it.

BTW, you can't buy 10,000TH without raising the ASIC/GPU prices significantly.
Even if you develop it silently, your suppliers will raise their prices.

Also, putting additional hash power into the network will raise the difficulty.
Putting up a 51% attack will require much more than $10m.

Gabi

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Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

And what is the fear exactly? That big banks will spend a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so they can doublespend on Satoshi Dice? Besides, maybe the mining pools could get together very quickly to balance out the network.

Please learn what a 51% attack is before posting.

droptable

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Quote from: lnternet on January 08, 2014, 12:41:07 PM

Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

And what is the fear exactly? That big banks will spend a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so they can doublespend on Satoshi Dice?

they make a chain which includes no tx. they will have the longest chain, so your block which has tx in it doesn't get into the chain.

Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

Besides, maybe the mining pools could get together very quickly to balance out the network.

you don't seem to understand the meaning of 51%

you can stop the blockchain from including meaningfull transactions.
you just stop putting in transactions in your new found blocks.

so it will take forever for a transaction to be transfared.
the intrinsic use of bitcoin would be destroyed.

//yes, if the poolowners and the comunity work togehter they could fight back, eg
// if your new-found-block deosnt cointains x transactions it is not valid, etc...

lnternet

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Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

And what is the fear exactly? That big banks will spend a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so they can doublespend on Satoshi Dice?

they make a chain which includes no tx. they will have the longest chain, so your block which has tx in it doesn't get into the chain.

Quote from: cryptozark on January 08, 2014, 12:39:20 PM

Besides, maybe the mining pools could get together very quickly to balance out the network.

you don't seem to understand the meaning of 51%

CoinCidental

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Si vis pacem, para bellum

Quote from: BitcoinBarrel on January 08, 2014, 11:59:32 AM

The more hashing power you are producing the more expensive it costs when you pass a certain level of stability.

I think if it could be done they would have done it, no point in waiting this long.

i agree
they could have killed it last year for 10% of the every rising cost to kill it now

anyway ,btc is a fly on the windscreen of the fast car that is the global economy

cryptozark

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Cryptocurrency is my new obsession

And what is the fear exactly? That big banks will spend a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so they can doublespend on Satoshi Dice? Besides, maybe the mining pools could get together very quickly to balance out the network.

mprep

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Quote from: nairb131 on January 08, 2014, 12:26:34 PM

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 08, 2014, 12:16:17 PM

Quote from: mprep on January 08, 2014, 12:03:00 PM

Quote from: EcuaMobi on January 08, 2014, 11:54:33 AM

This is definitely a problem.

But I think if someone had 10,000 TH on his own, he'd prefer to mine Bitcoin and get half of every single coin produced, right?
So it's possible to destroy the network but most people wouldn't do it. There's a far better way to use their hashing power.

Yeah, some owners of banks might even be mining secretly and investing their cash in BTC. Besides if Bitcoin was destroyed, people woild pass on to another cryptocoin, if it gets destroyed - onto another, and so on, so forth.

I still think their is some competion in the banking and hedgefund world, I think there are a bunch of bank CEO's thinking like, "How can we make money with bitcoin ? can we become a bitcoin bank ? can we maybe fractional reserve bank bitcoin ? ) I dont think the financial sectora as a whole is against bitcoin, im sure some wanna embrace it, for they own profit naturally.

I agree I doubt they would destroy BTC when it is another avenue to be exploited for them to make money.

Well bank owners own banks not to help people, that's for sure. Wasn't the flaws of the banking system one of the reasons cryptocurrency was born?

lnternet

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market cap is just a measure. it bears no relation to any real life value. saying you can attack a 10 billion market cap with a 10 million investment compares two unrelated values; both are in USD but they are still not comparable. bitcoin has a market cap of 10b, but that does not mean that it is worth 10b.

coinrevo

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Well, learn what an attack is. Even if you have 51% of the hashing power, that doesn't mean you can destroy the network. If the attack was clearly defined, then there would be a reboot, i.e. a new Cryptocurrency which fixes the issue. If not, people would probably lose faith. I believe every issue will be fixed, even if there would be a reset like this. After all bitcoin is still flagged experimental. Nobody is saying it can't happen.

To suggest that anyone in a bank can drop 50 million to take action which a) is illegal and b) not in their direct interest is simply ludicrous. Yes, there is a lot of corruption in banks, but there are limits.

nuno12345

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You prove your point but..

How can a 51% attack destroy bitcoin, i mean for good? it could affect the network and price will follow but to effectively end it for good they would need to keep the attack for 24/7, fork the network, price will follow, users loose credibility in bitcoin but the background(technical details) of bitcoin is still there and in theory it still works and its still a viable way of exchanging currency, just needs more security.

What about other alts and updates?
If bitcoin crashes almost every other coin will be doomed but there are some alternative cryptos that are not vulnerable to 51% attacks.
Everyone knows about 51% attacks and its proved it can successfully fork the network but we also know that practically every coin is open source and updates have been released in the past, so bitcoin gets attacked, next day there will be an update introducing PoS or something else.

?

droptable

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Quote from: newguy05 on January 08, 2014, 12:11:30 PM

Banks, credit cards and other parties of interest dont care about making pennies earning those bitcoins.

We are talking about hundreds of billions of revenue at risk for those companies. If bitcoin really catches on as we all hope, then credit cards, wire transfers, atm fees, etc.. will all be at risk.

your concernes are valid.
the money they make out of fees is much more than what they could make out of bitcoin at the moment.

BUT

dont tread the financial system (feemakers) as a homogeneus group.
they dont work together if they can attac each other.

so

for the industry as a single organism it would be apropriate to attac bitcoin
but for a singel bank (etc) it could be much better to go into bitcoin.

from the point of view of a bank there is no difference between runing an atm-banking-switch-thingy and operating a (self-owned) pool.
its about beeing a middle man and collecting fees.

and the (recent) struckture of mining via (expensive!) specialised hardware gives them the oportunity to be an middle man.

//sry, i´m a legasthenic AND non-native-speaker

nairb131

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Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 08, 2014, 12:16:17 PM

Quote from: mprep on January 08, 2014, 12:03:00 PM

Quote from: EcuaMobi on January 08, 2014, 11:54:33 AM

This is definitely a problem.

But I think if someone had 10,000 TH on his own, he'd prefer to mine Bitcoin and get half of every single coin produced, right?
So it's possible to destroy the network but most people wouldn't do it. There's a far better way to use their hashing power.

Yeah, some owners of banks might even be mining secretly and investing their cash in BTC. Besides if Bitcoin was destroyed, people woild pass on to another cryptocoin, if it gets destroyed - onto another, and so on, so forth.

I still think their is some competion in the banking and hedgefund world, I think there are a bunch of bank CEO's thinking like, "How can we make money with bitcoin ? can we become a bitcoin bank ? can we maybe fractional reserve bank bitcoin ? ) I dont think the financial sectora as a whole is against bitcoin, im sure some wanna embrace it, for they own profit naturally.

I agree I doubt they would destroy BTC when it is another avenue to be exploited for them to make money.

RenegadeMind

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THINK IT, BUILD IT, PLAY IT! --- XAYA

In one talk Andreas Antonopoulos says that it would cost in excess of $400 million. $20 million seems low.

newguy05

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Someone is sitting in the shade today...

Quote from: coinrevo on January 08, 2014, 12:23:11 PM

Interesting analysis, however your numbers are way off and the logic quite incorrect. Read some posts by core devs to get a better understanding w.r.t to attack vectors, mining policies etc. Even if there would an equivalent of money invested to give you certainty to destroy the network. Why would somebody waste say 50 million dollars? No institution can simply do this. A private person could do it, for example in the future a serious Alt-Coin competitor with interest in destroy one coin. That would be the much more likely scenario of an attack, but still extremely improbable, at least for now.

i am happy to hear why my numbers are way off and logic quite incorrect, just saying that doesnt mean much.

And $20mil or $50mil is nothing to those companies budgets, i know because i worked in one for 10+ years. You dont even need to goto the top management to have this kind of money approved. if it hurts their profit, it will be gone, simple. So far bitcoin has not because it is not popular yet.

coinrevo

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Interesting analysis, however your numbers are way off and the logic quite incorrect. Read some posts by core devs to get a better understanding w.r.t to attack vectors, mining policies etc. Even if there would an equivalent of money invested to give you certainty to destroy the network. Why would somebody waste say 50 million dollars? No institution can simply do this. Although GS is extremely powerful, they can't just do what they want.

A private person could do it, for example in the future a serious Alt-Coin competitor with interest in destroy one coin. That would be the much more likely scenario of an attack, but still extremely improbable, at least for now.

Bigeyeone

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Quote from: mprep on January 08, 2014, 12:03:00 PM

Quote from: EcuaMobi on January 08, 2014, 11:54:33 AM

This is definitely a problem.

But I think if someone had 10,000 TH on his own, he'd prefer to mine Bitcoin and get half of every single coin produced, right?
So it's possible to destroy the network but most people wouldn't do it. There's a far better way to use their hashing power.

Yeah, some owners of banks might even be mining secretly and investing their cash in BTC. Besides if Bitcoin was destroyed, people woild pass on to another cryptocoin, if it gets destroyed - onto another, and so on, so forth.

I still think their is some competion in the banking and hedgefund world, I think there are a bunch of bank CEO's thinking like, "How can we make money with bitcoin ? can we become a bitcoin bank ? can we maybe fractional reserve bank bitcoin ? ) I dont think the financial sectora as a whole is against bitcoin, im sure some wanna embrace it, for they own profit naturally.

newguy05

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Someone is sitting in the shade today...

Quote from: EcuaMobi on January 08, 2014, 11:54:33 AM

This is definitely a problem.

But I think if someone had 10,000 TH on his own, he'd prefer to mine Bitcoin and get half of every single coin produced, right?
So it's possible to destroy the network but most people wouldn't do it. There's a far better way to use their hashing power.

I quoted above post but this is a generic response to all the posts. Banks, credit cards and other parties of interest dont care about making pennies earning those bitcoins. We are talking about hundreds of billions of revenue at risk for those companies. If bitcoin really catches on as we all hope, then credit cards, wire transfers, atm fees, etc.. will all be at risk. It will take just 1 company to say i can drop $20mil to wipe this out or face losing tens of billions over the years. What do you think they will do? It's all about money, they will wipe out entire country's economy and people's lives to make money, think they care about bitcoin?

The only saving grace as i said is bitcoin is not popular right now and not been used, currently it is not hurting the financial firms bottomline.

The only thing we can hope is a continued rapid increase in difficulty while bitcoin slowly (keyword slow) gain popularity so by the time wall street take notice, the network is so large it will take hundreds of billions to destroy it.

As i said, i dont think people thought this whole thing through.

mprep

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In a world of peaches, don't ask for apple sauce

Quote from: EcuaMobi on January 08, 2014, 11:54:33 AM

This is definitely a problem.

But I think if someone had 10,000 TH on his own, he'd prefer to mine Bitcoin and get half of every single coin produced, right?
So it's possible to destroy the network but most people wouldn't do it. There's a far better way to use their hashing power.

Yeah, some owners of banks might even be mining secretly and investing their cash in BTC. Besides if Bitcoin was destroyed, people woild pass on to another cryptocoin, if it gets destroyed - onto another, and so on, so forth.

vqp

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I understand that kind of attack from a government, specially one with enough opacity in their decisions and technical skills.

Corporations are much more complex. Somebody will have to justify the money spent, decisions are to be made, corporation decisionmakers will argue is an illegal move (it certainly is if you use the hash power for a double spend), other drones will suggest other uses for the money. Is not so easy to propose something like this,at least today.

An individual can do it but it will not be rational, since he can earn much more money by simply mining with that beast.

Topic: Bitcoin's 10000 TH network is extremely vulnerable - page 4. (Read 5395 times)