Topic: Bitcoins are not, in practice, fungible - page 3. (Read 9555 times)
But more complexity layers in the Bitcoin client may scare new adopters
You can still track where those fees came from. It is a bit harder, but not impossible. Besides, if you start doing really large transaction fees with the intent of attempting to launder coins, people can simply consider those coinbases to be tainted as well.
There will be a time in the not so distant future where somebody will add the functionality to a client which allows the user to specify a tainted transaction, block, or address with which they do not want to receive coins from. The client will then allow the user to segregate those coins from the rest of their clean coins to do dispose of how they see fit. It is already a part of the protocol to be able to specify exactly which bitcoins go into a transaction, allowing the user an interface to do so directly simply gives them more fine grained control over their money.
It is my right to do business or not do business with a person or business based upon my personal criteria. If that criteria includes not receiving stolen goods/property, and I can reasonably determine that to my satisfaction by examining the blockchain, then I don't see a problem.
There will be a time in the not so distant future where somebody will add the functionality to a client which allows the user to specify a tainted transaction, block, or address with which they do not want to receive coins from. The client will then allow the user to segregate those coins from the rest of their clean coins to do dispose of how they see fit. It is already a part of the protocol to be able to specify exactly which bitcoins go into a transaction, allowing the user an interface to do so directly simply gives them more fine grained control over their money.
It is my right to do business or not do business with a person or business based upon my personal criteria. If that criteria includes not receiving stolen goods/property, and I can reasonably determine that to my satisfaction by examining the blockchain, then I don't see a problem.
This is a problem that, within Bitcoin, can only be solved collaboratively. Either exchanges should be pressed to explicitly accept all BTC from all origins and make this contractual, or we should run a big P2P coin mixing system including a big enough % of users that exchanges would have to submit to it.
¿Can a large mining pool owner act as a Bitcoin launderer not broadcasting a fake all-fee-transaction and including it in a valid block mined by the pool?
You can therefore convert old coins to "new" coins by paying the whole value of a transaction as the fee. Of course you've given their value to the miner, so there is no real reason to do it.
Is there any reasonably way in which someone can make these transactions get picked up by their own miners when they solve a block? 
I can't quite remember; but I believe this to be correct.
Transaction fees are paid by making the inputs of a transaction be larger than the outputs. The miner is then entitled to add that difference to their coin base transaction. Note: the coin base.
The coin base is not directly connected to the input transactions in the block. It is the creation of new coins.
You can therefore convert old coins to "new" coins by paying the whole value of a transaction as the fee. Of course you've given their value to the miner, so there is no real reason to do it.
Transaction fees are paid by making the inputs of a transaction be larger than the outputs. The miner is then entitled to add that difference to their coin base transaction. Note: the coin base.
The coin base is not directly connected to the input transactions in the block. It is the creation of new coins.
You can therefore convert old coins to "new" coins by paying the whole value of a transaction as the fee. Of course you've given their value to the miner, so there is no real reason to do it.
we need some way to be able to "melt-down" tainted bitcoins so they can be like fresh minted again ... 
Transaction fees.
Care to elaborate on that ... ?
Yes please, explain how.
we need some way to be able to "melt-down" tainted bitcoins so they can be like fresh minted again ...
Transaction fees.
Care to elaborate on that ... ?
... or we could just accept that due the fundamental of the design, bitcoins are just not that fungible.
Of course, a more fungible cryptocurrency than bitcoin would also be more anonymous and private (by corollary?).
The poor fungibility is related to what makes bitcoin only pseudo-anonymous with further layers being required to achieve strong anonymity with the bitcoin scheme .... however it is difficult to imagine a pattern of bits that is indistinguishable from another pattern of bits and yet can be issued in only limited amounts .... double-spend and fungibility are not easy to satisfy simultaneously it seems ... makes gold look like good money ... we need some way to be able to "melt-down" tainted bitcoins so they can be like fresh minted again ...
IS MtGox going to decide just how tainted coins must be in order for them to be seized? 90%? 50? 20? 10? 1%?
This is messed up. As I've mentioned in another thread about this topic, I believe we need a network/community consensus or this may become a case that will either confuse many people and keep them from further- or ever start using BTC (forget a widespread BTC usage in the future if things get so complicated that I have to know how to verify coins let alone do it with every transaction) or it may split up the users in favor and against such tracking measures. The latter would be bad, too b/c there is already some fuzz going on what should be implemented officially and what not.
Some people claim tracking and tainting is going to be inevitable even b/c of the way bitcoin is created - we should make clear to everyone that we don't want tainted Bitcoins to be seized and returned to their original owners, who were sloppy with their security precisely b/c it will undermine the system. So, this is not a question of technical doability but one of politics. In any way, the recent theft has made quite an impact already, enough to get me thinking whether it could be a coordinated attack from someone having had enough time to find bitcoins weakness and/or the "community's" weakness (namely separation and disillusionment). Let's hope the thieves were really just greedy bastards.
This is messed up. As I've mentioned in another thread about this topic, I believe we need a network/community consensus or this may become a case that will either confuse many people and keep them from further- or ever start using BTC (forget a widespread BTC usage in the future if things get so complicated that I have to know how to verify coins let alone do it with every transaction) or it may split up the users in favor and against such tracking measures. The latter would be bad, too b/c there is already some fuzz going on what should be implemented officially and what not.
Some people claim tracking and tainting is going to be inevitable even b/c of the way bitcoin is created - we should make clear to everyone that we don't want tainted Bitcoins to be seized and returned to their original owners, who were sloppy with their security precisely b/c it will undermine the system. So, this is not a question of technical doability but one of politics. In any way, the recent theft has made quite an impact already, enough to get me thinking whether it could be a coordinated attack from someone having had enough time to find bitcoins weakness and/or the "community's" weakness (namely separation and disillusionment). Let's hope the thieves were really just greedy bastards.
The question is, what happens when those stolen bitcoins are exchanged long enough that an unsuspecting person ends up with them and then deposits them into their Bitcoinica account. Will they be confiscated? I don't think Bitconica would do that but the thought is creepy.
The worrying aspect is MtGox deciding to act as a policeman. If they are going to do that I think they should make it quite clear.
+1 Don't punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty; anyone can get 'bad' $20 bills in their change or even from an ATM.
Stolen bitcoins should always be farmed OTC.
Exchanges exist to reduce counterparty risk, one of which is stolen goods which expose the buyer to legal consequences.
Don't like exchanges needing to know you? Don't use exchanges.
Exchanges exist to reduce counterparty risk, one of which is stolen goods which expose the buyer to legal consequences.
Don't like exchanges needing to know you? Don't use exchanges.
FTFY
Nice try. But you can do over the counter transactions with Bitcoin and you won't have to worry about an exchange seizing your bitcoins.
This is not a problem inherent to Bitcoin as you suggest. It is a "problem" with exchanges acting as middlemen.
Except that is the entire reason for exchanges to exist, to act as middlemen and make sure neither party gets left holding the bag.
So if a bunch of the stolen coins go through the bitcoin fog
http://www.bitcoinfog.com/
and are mixed and bundled with 'worthy' coins and then deposited in the goxhole ... which ones do the goxes poach then?
Gox in charge of the hen house?
I have never used Mt. Gox to this point except for a brief test where I had about 25 cents in there. They ended up terminating my account and stealing the 25 cents -- at least that's what I assume as I can no longer log into my original account with a password that was over 20 random characters and symbols. My linked email account has a similarly-complex password.
And, I plan to never, EVER use Mt. Gox after reading the dozens and dozens of horror stories on this forum.
My guess is that MtGox is simply comprised of a few greedy fucks who will not hire any more customer service reps because they want to keep their individual profits to a maximum.
DeathandTaxes hit the nail on the head. Locking accounts and seizing funds is stealing, even if only temporarily. In the event that Gox were to conclude that the deposited funds are stolen and thus permanently seize the funds, this is still stealing.
And, I plan to never, EVER use Mt. Gox after reading the dozens and dozens of horror stories on this forum.
My guess is that MtGox is simply comprised of a few greedy fucks who will not hire any more customer service reps because they want to keep their individual profits to a maximum.
DeathandTaxes hit the nail on the head. Locking accounts and seizing funds is stealing, even if only temporarily. In the event that Gox were to conclude that the deposited funds are stolen and thus permanently seize the funds, this is still stealing.
Stolen bitcoins should always be farmed OTC.
Exchanges exist to reduce counterparty risk, one of which is stolen goods which expose the buyer to legal consequences.
Don't like exchanges needing to know you? Don't use them.
Exchanges exist to reduce counterparty risk, one of which is stolen goods which expose the buyer to legal consequences.
Don't like exchanges needing to know you? Don't use them.
This already happened once before, I've been searching but I can't find it, just tons of results about the original theft (it was allinvains coins).
Did allinvain get his coins back ? When did that happen ?
I don't think so, but I just meant that Mt Gox already locked accounts before for dirty bitcoins.
This already happened once before, I've been searching but I can't find it, just tons of results about the original theft (it was allinvains coins).
Did allinvain get his coins back ? When did that happen ?
to death and taxes, I think you are right- deal with MtGox if you are prepared to accept their KYC rules and acept they are just like police in the system we are trying to get rid of. I was just about to deposit cash to buy BTC on MtGox- but I dont think I will now! I will go somewhere else and there are other options bye-bye MtGox. reg
They free to inform about these coins.. but they can NOT reject them or expropriate it.
to death and taxes, I think you are right- deal with MtGox if you are prepared to accept their KYC rules and acept they are just like police in the system we are trying to get rid of. I was just about to deposit cash to buy BTC on MtGox- but I dont think I will now! I will go somewhere else and there are other options bye-bye MtGox. reg
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