Bitcoin's Biggest Downfall - page 2.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: anderxander on June 02, 2011, 11:33:10 AM

Does no one see this as an issue?

More of a feature than bug ... if every man and his dog was easily able to get into bitcoin right now the value would be through the roof and all the usual loudmouths would be screaming blue bloody bubble murder.

As for solar tech., when it is efficient enough to be viable the fat govt. subsidies won't be necessary.

Do you see anybody getting subsidies to buy high-tech mining equipment? ... that is what real tech. progress looks like, it's messy, it's chaotic, competitive but profitable.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: anderxander on June 02, 2011, 04:32:11 PM

Ok the "it will magically solve itself" is not an answer. It didn't magically solve itself for any of the other digital currencies that have failed and for all of the it was the need to convert them back to Centralized currencies.

I never said it was magic, even though to some it might appear as such. It's economics. It's the 'network effect'. As the Bitcoin economy grows, and thus comes to represent a greater portion of the total economy of any given region, the need of bitcoin holders to exchange out to a national fiat currency will decrease. In the future, if you can spend bitcoin at Wal-Mart for your daily needs, you don't need to pay transaction fees nor trust some distant counterparty dealer. You simply go to Wal-Mart and buy what you need directly, probably using your smartphone. That is the end goal of this whole thing. Fiat currencies have real limitations that make their use in cyberspace risky or difficult, but the reverse will soon no longer be so.

I would be surprised if the Euro existed in 10 years (in any recognizable form) even if Bitcoin didn't exist. Now I think that not only will the Euro not exist in any dominate fashion, Europeans won't even care. The US FRN will last longer, for many reasons, but will eventually fade away. The governments that persist will have to adapt to a world wherein they have near zero control over the monetary system.

anderxander

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Check out Open Source Ecology and what they are doing with solar concentrators and steam engines.

Ok the "it will magically solve itself" is not an answer. It didn't magically solve itself for any of the other digital currencies that have failed and for all of the it was the need to convert them back to Centralized currencies.

We as a community need to invest in the technologies that will detach bitcoin from having to convert to centralized currencies.

PLATO

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Don't trust "BBOD The Best Futures Exchange"

I love the idea of solar datacenters. More efficient solar panels would be nice.

You could take surplus cargo containers and wire them up with mining rigs, solar panels, MondoNet repeaters, whatever, then ship them around on rail to customers

MoonShadow

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Quote from: anderxander on June 02, 2011, 11:33:10 AM

Does no one see this as an issue?

It's a present cost of aquiring Bitcoins, and adds to the present risk, but it will slowly resolve itself as the Bitcoin economy grows. So no, it's not really an issue.

anderxander

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Does no one see this as an issue?

anderxander

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Quote from: luv2drnkbr on June 01, 2011, 05:09:39 PM

That's just not true. It's like saying you must convert Dollars to Euros in order to use them in Europe.

Last time I went to Europe I had to convert my dollars to Euros to spend them in the store. There might be some stores that accept Dollars but even credit card dollars are converted to the local currency. Not sure what you're talking about....

Quote from: luv2drnkbr on June 01, 2011, 05:09:39 PM

Once bitcoins are widely accepted and everybody takes them as payment, there will be no need to convert them since they ARE money.

Except to pay for electric.

Quote from: fpgaminer on June 01, 2011, 04:34:17 PM

Quote

But you must convert to dollars to pay for electric and hardware.

Not for hardware. There are people who already will purchase things from Amazon and NewEgg for you, in exchange for Bitcoins. Plato is travelling the U.S. using only Bitcoins.

It's a little bit of a pain at the moment, but as Bitcoins gain popularity more and more stores will accept them as a form of payment right along-side credit cards and PayPal.

Quote

The break down is where the crypto currency gets converted into real currency. These places are easy to shut down.

See Bitcoin-OTC, which is an Over The Counter market. Trades from one person to another, and only centralized in the sense that they all need a place to meet (IRC).

And except you are trading them for a centralized currency. The ease of convertibility from bitcoins to dollars is not my issue.

What's the airlines bitcoin payment address?

What's neweggs bitcoin payment address?

ATI's?

What about the mining companies bitcoin address's to pay for raw materials used to make hardware?

BTC must pay for BTC in BTC. BTC cannot pay to run BTC with another currency if it wants to stand on its own and as good as another currency.

Which brings me back to the off the grid data center and Open Source Ecology. If you could get a manufacturer/raw material producer to accept only BTC for power generation equipment, it would force people to convert to from USD to BTC in order to have access to it.

This gives both technologies a competitive advantage.

Plastics? Get a hemp producer to accept only BTC for his hemp crops.
Clothes? Same thing.
Food? Get farmers to only accept BTC.

SgtSpike

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Ah - we were talking about two end results. I was talking about being able to trace all of a single individual's transactions, whereas you were talking about being able to reveal the identity of a person given an address or a few addresses.

It would be extremely easy to identify me. Tongue

Oh well.

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:42:38 PM

Quote from: MoonShadow on June 01, 2011, 06:33:21 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:23:00 PM

But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.

It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible.

I think it would be absurd to make the assumption that the smaller of the two is change.

For instance:
- I used to mine with deepbit, and when I did, I took payouts of 10BTC or more.
- I have payed other people 10 payments of 0.25 BTC, and 12-15 payments of 0.10 BTC or less.
- In each of those instances, my change would have been far greater than the sum sent out.

How else would it be feasible to figure out which address is change and which address is not? Your entire argument that all transactions for a person are traceable seems to hinge on the fact that you can figure out what is change and what is not, but as it stands, I just don't see how that is possible. You could use a bunch of guesswork, and perhaps get lucky if the person sent to another publicized address (i.e., I donated to a given cause, then they would know which address was change), but other than that, I just don't see how tracing a person's transactions is really possible.

Maybe I did not clearly express myself. I'm trying to say that the keys in your wallet are made up of lots of transactions which sometimes combines keys that you would like to hide with keys that you would like to keep secret - effectively linking the two keys and if,

as stated before:

"given enough of your key transfers and some (even the slightest) transparency into the real/traceable online world from you or any of your wallet's key transfer's counter parties"

the above quoted phrase might reveal your identity.

cloud9

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Quote from: MoonShadow on June 01, 2011, 06:33:21 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:23:00 PM

But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.

It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11138.msg158505#msg158505

SgtSpike

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Quote from: MoonShadow on June 01, 2011, 06:33:21 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:23:00 PM

But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.

It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible.

I think it would be absurd to make the assumption that the smaller of the two is change.

For instance:
- I used to mine with deepbit, and when I did, I took payouts of 10BTC or more.
- I have payed other people 10 payments of 0.25 BTC, and 12-15 payments of 0.10 BTC or less.
- In each of those instances, my change would have been far greater than the sum sent out.

How else would it be feasible to figure out which address is change and which address is not? Your entire argument that all transactions for a person are traceable seems to hinge on the fact that you can figure out what is change and what is not, but as it stands, I just don't see how that is possible. You could use a bunch of guesswork, and perhaps get lucky if the person sent to another publicized address (i.e., I donated to a given cause, then they would know which address was change), but other than that, I just don't see how tracing a person's transactions is really possible.

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:23:00 PM

So you could potentially link two addresses together because they were included in the same transaction, but without knowing which of the addresses is the "change" address, how would you know how much I actually sent out and how much I kept for myself?

Checkout http://blockexplorer.com/ type in some of your recent destination addresses and click on the keys in the table to explore.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 06:23:00 PM

But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.

It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 01, 2011, 06:10:37 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 05:26:09 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 01, 2011, 05:16:09 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 04:59:58 PM

What happens during the night/winter?

And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.

Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff?

Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin.

If bitcoins are so publicly traceable, I dare you to try to find my current wallet balance. Or at least, take your best educated guess at it.

I do have a couple of publicly-available bitcoin addresses, so what else can you tell about my bitcoining activity from information you can find?

With enough time (which I do not want to spend on your dare) and effort (which I would put in something more positive) and resources (which law enforcement agencies do not have a shortage of), your challenge will be met - given enough of your key transfers and some (even the slightest) transparency into the real/traceable online world from you or any of your wallet's key transfer's counter parties. Sometimes your keys combine to make up for a larger amount and the difference from the intended value to transfer gets issued to a new key that you just maybe spent to someone transparent, and voilla! questions asked to this transparent person of how some known illegal money spent on btc transfered to you and then to the transparent person renders your identity from the interrogation maybe. Good luck, it seems like you would have a lot of tracks to cover - is it worth the effort for the average joe who will just prove his innocence by utilising the blockchain. Even if its not a requirement in your jurisdiction to prove your own innocence, your reluctance to do so might be a dead give away warranting investigation.

So you could potentially link two addresses together because they were included in the same transaction, but without knowing which of the addresses is the "change" address, how would you know how much I actually sent out and how much I kept for myself?

And I'm not worried about being investigated - I've got nothing to hide. I'm not in to drugs or anything that isn't legal, and if my profits turn out to be greater than my expenses from my ventures in Bitcoins, then I will pay my due taxes on it. I believe my effective tax rate this last year was 0.66%, so I'm not terribly worried about how much that will amount to. Wink

But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is. Not because I am worried about hiding myself (why would I publicly post about my website(s), and my bitcoin addresses if I was?), but because I am a curious person, and enjoy challenges, and like to see what is possible and what is not possible with technology.

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 05:26:09 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 01, 2011, 05:16:09 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 04:59:58 PM

What happens during the night/winter?

And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.

Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff?

Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin.

If bitcoins are so publicly traceable, I dare you to try to find my current wallet balance. Or at least, take your best educated guess at it.

I do have a couple of publicly-available bitcoin addresses, so what else can you tell about my bitcoining activity from information you can find?

With enough time (which I do not want to spend on your dare) and effort (which I would put in something more positive) and resources (which law enforcement agencies do not have a shortage of), your challenge will be met - given enough of your key transfers and some (even the slightest) transparency into the real/traceable online world from you or any of your wallet's key transfer's counter parties. Sometimes your keys combine to make up for a larger amount and the difference from the intended value to transfer gets issued to a new key that you just maybe spent to someone transparent, and voilla! questions asked to this transparent person of how some known illegal money spent on btc transfered to you and then to the transparent person renders your identity from the interrogation maybe. Good luck, it seems like you would have a lot of tracks to cover - is it worth the effort for the average joe who will just prove his innocence by utilising the blockchain. Even if its not a requirement in your jurisdiction to prove your own innocence, your reluctance to do so might be a dead give away warranting investigation.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: anderxander on June 01, 2011, 03:14:18 PM

But you must convert to dollars to pay for electric and hardware.

I've never cashed out, not even a little. I've bought many things besides other currencies.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 01, 2011, 05:16:09 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 04:59:58 PM

What happens during the night/winter?

And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.

Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff?

Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin.

If bitcoins are so publicly traceable, I dare you to try to find my current wallet balance. Or at least, take your best educated guess at it.

I do have a couple of publicly-available bitcoin addresses, so what else can you tell about my bitcoining activity from information you can find?

cloud9

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Activity: 126

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 01, 2011, 04:59:58 PM

What happens during the night/winter?

And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.

Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff?

Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin.

luv2drnkbr

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Quote from: anderxander on June 01, 2011, 03:14:18 PM

But you must convert to dollars to pay for electric and hardware.

The break down is where the crypto currency gets converted into real currency. These places are easy to shut down.

That's just not true. It's like saying you must convert Dollars to Euros in order to use them in Europe. Once bitcoins are widely accepted and everybody takes them as payment, there will be no need to convert them since they ARE money.

SgtSpike

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What happens during the night/winter?

And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.

Topic: Bitcoin's Biggest Downfall - page 2. (Read 9364 times)