Bitcoin's biggest problem - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

piramida

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 06, 2015, 02:05:40 PM

Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 12:04:31 PM

I am aligning with your last comment. Bitcoin is really an asset that is best managed as I manage my cash, smaller amounts that are kept reasonably safe and readily available for spending.

But this means I should move larger amounts of Bitcoin into another asset, which speaks to the longer term value of the technology.

Not necessarily but it does require some common sense. Just because someone has $100,000 in cash doesn't mean they should stuff it all in their wallet and walk around with it. Likewise it wouldn't really make sense to keep all of it in a safety deposit box either. "Oops need to buy a candy bar let me sign out my safety deposit box at the bank, remove $1 and then spend it." Most people would use common sense. Somehow people know how to keep cash secure and part of that means limiting the amount which can be stolen while not making it inconvenient (keep daily needs in wallet, an emergency amount in home safe, and bulk of cash strongly secured). Not sure why but soon as it becomes Bitcoin all common sense goes out the window.

Scary to think what people asking these questions would do if they'd store their wealth in gold bars

"Gold is cool and all but shopping becomes a real problem for me"

Peter R

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 06, 2015, 02:05:40 PM

...

Haha, welcome back! Happy New Years and all the best for 2015!

DeathAndTaxes

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Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 12:04:31 PM

I am aligning with your last comment. Bitcoin is really an asset that is best managed as I manage my cash, smaller amounts that are kept reasonably safe and readily available for spending.

But this means I should move larger amounts of Bitcoin into another asset, which speaks to the longer term value of the technology.

Not necessarily but it does require some common sense. Just because someone has $100,000 in cash doesn't mean they should stuff it all in their wallet and walk around with it everyday. The funny thing is that nobody does and they don't even consider it however they do exactly that with Bitcoin. Likewise it wouldn't really make sense to keep all of your money in a safety deposit box either. "Oops need to buy a candy bar let me drive to the bank, show ID, wait for the guard, sign out my safety deposit box at the bank, remove $1, lock the box, drive to the store and buy the candy bar". That scenario is also equally dumb and nobody would even consider doing that in the fiat world. Why? Most people would use common sense. Somehow people know how to keep cash secure and part of that means limiting the amount which can be stolen while not making it excessively inconvenient. Keep daily needs in wallet, an emergency amount in home safe, and bulk of cash strongly secured in safety deposit box (or federally insured bank). People instinctively know how to do it when it is dollars or euros but soon as you say Bitcoin all the common sense goes out the window.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: thresher on January 06, 2015, 01:48:23 PM

It is bitcoin's fault there was an inside job at gox, and god knows what at bitstamp? ...

Oh I'm totally with you man. It's not really a bitcoin problem per-se. But because users have to be responsible for themselves, and because sometimes they aren't, the ecosystem has security issues. It's still the safest payment system though.

NotLambchop

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Quote from: thresher on January 06, 2015, 01:48:23 PM

It is bitcoin's fault there was an inside job at gox, and god knows what at bitstamp?
...

No, it's not Bitcoin's fault that it has attracted every interwebs scammer, hax0r & has-been con man.
But Bitcoin's problem (not fault) is that it has no mechanism for dealing with theft and fraud.

thresher

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It is bitcoin's fault there was an inside job at gox, and god knows what at bitstamp?

A friend of mine used to steal steak from the grocery store he worked at when we were kids. We better blame that god dammed steak. There is something wrong with steaks. If the grocery store cannot protect steak, how can I? The steak is destined to fail, it can be stolen to easily.

How many people have been mugged for fiat?

How many people have been mugged for bitcoin?

We better not carry fiat, and start only carrying bitcoin, because statistically speaking people who carry fiat are 100 percent more likely to be mugged and buttraped than those who carry bitcoin.

DieJohnny

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Quote from: gustav on January 06, 2015, 12:47:26 PM

i have an idea to drastically increase security but i can't code and nobody wants to buy it from me. I was even told by coders i can not have that idea because i am not a coder.
But i am also not willing to give it away for free so someone else get rich off my idea without giving me a slice of the pie. Here you go with the dilemma.

I decided to not release it at all and let people choke on this problem instead because not even these milionaires have spare coins to buy virgin ideas which could be groundbreaking.
Maybe get a patent later and sell that in case others can't improve on it.

Solutions are there but the programmers think they know it all and are lazy too.
It's not my problem in the end of the day.

Any solution that is built in the paradigms we operate in today will be vulnerable. You say your solution requires coding, I cannot believe you have come up with a software solution that is truly a paradigm shift. Software is vulnerable period.

For me to believe your solution is interesting, you would have to convince me that when you say "coding" you mean something different than what I hear when you say coding.

A great bitcoin solution would also be a great solution for Cash, is your solution a great solution for protecting my cash?

gustav

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i have an idea to drastically increase security but i can't code and nobody wants to buy it from me. I was even told by coders i can not have that idea because i am not a coder.
But i am also not willing to give it away for free so someone else get rich off my idea without giving me a slice of the pie. Here you go with the dilemma.

I decided to not release it at all and let people choke on this problem instead because not even these milionaires have spare coins to buy virgin ideas which could be groundbreaking.
Maybe get a patent later and sell that in case others can't improve on it.

Solutions are there but the programmers think they know it all and are lazy too.
It's not my problem in the end of the day.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I agree that this is an issue. It is actually bigger than bitcoin and this past year has shown that the old ways of doing security on the internet are failing. It is especially hard for a business like an exchange. They have to expose some of their coins to fraud just to facilitate transactions. We all know that a hot wallet is more vulnerable but often a necessity.

Perhaps it's time for hardware wallets and requiring 2-factors for everything? I'm on my third bankcard in a year and have begun removing my card data from shopping websites. Bitcoin is a more secure option than a card, but BTC wallets are still just files and subject to the same threats as other files.

riiiiising

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Gawd, why do people keep asking this?

Just don't use your Internet money on the Internet, or store it on any machine that has been connected to the Internet. Roll Eyes

Choo Choo, here comes the mainstream buyers!

Melbustus

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Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

1st off, nobody's cared much for more than 3 years. 2nd, a few years ago, it wouldn't've been surprising if a hack like this Bitstamp one was for *all* their coins. And 3rd, good solutions *have* arisen the past year: as others noted, Trezor, BitGo, etc. These things take time: more time than most people who don't have a hand in actually implementing this stuff think.

DieJohnny

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Quote from: TookDk on January 06, 2015, 12:10:47 PM

1. People start taking responsibility over securing their own funds (people are morons when it comes to handling money).

If people have not secured their cash in a thousand years they won't learn to secure Bitcoins. I think the problem is not solvable by joe consumer.

Quote

2. Payment services emerge with a similar insurance system as CC.

This is what is going to happen, which makes me wonder then how that new world compares to the current world. Haven't thought about it enough to decide if it is differentiated enough.

I think #2 only will make sense when the bitcoin value is large enough that banks feel comfortable taking ownership of your assets for you. They can hold it or reinvest just like other assets. But then again how is that world different from today's world?

NotLambchop

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Quote from: Furio on January 06, 2015, 11:24:21 AM

...
Offline storage.... fixes all problems, only use it online when needed, and then back into coldc storage, never any problems

Now why didn't stamp think of that? You should drop those boys a line, they sure can use a security expert of your caliber.

TookDk

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One coin to rule them all

Bitcoin have the same problems as fiat money, you can always be subject to a robbery.
When some steals your money, then would it be silly to blame the dollar bills for being robbed.

Credit cards has solved this problem by adding insurance to their service, which of cause cost money.

I can only see two way of bitcon becoming a mainstream payment system:
1. People start taking responsibility over securing their own funds (people are morons when it comes to handling money).
2. Payment services emerge with a similar insurance system as CC.

DieJohnny

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on January 06, 2015, 11:17:48 AM

Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

No, the failure point is the human factor, the mtgox investigation already revealed that it was an inside job, and stamp and their "hack" fall into the same category.

You, and the people you know can protect your bitcoins if you keep them essentially unspendable, I know...

It's a matter of chance.

Bitcoin won't solve this, it's not intended to. It's virtual cash, with the same security implications.

I am aligning with your last comment. Bitcoin is really an asset that is best managed as I manage my cash, smaller amounts that are kept reasonably safe and readily available for spending.

But this means I should move larger amounts of Bitcoin into another asset, which speaks to the longer term value of the technology.

I don't really care about Bitcoin replacing all banking, it really just has to find a permanent real niche in our financial system to be wildly successful. But i think even current adopters really don't know what it is best for.

It is not best for hoarding store of value, yet.... IMHO

DieJohnny

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Quote from: Furio on January 06, 2015, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

Offline storage.... fixes all problems, only use it online when needed, and then back into coldc storage, never any problems

Offline storage doesn't protect you perfectly, you can lose your keys no harder than losing your car keys. You can come up with a thousand ways to protect your coins but none are fail safe. guess where i put my cold storage keys, a safe deposit box. So i trust the bank more than my house or anything else. Funny how we come full circle. If I put my offline wallet in a bank, why not just trust a bank with the keys themselves?

chesthing

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Quote from: Furio on January 06, 2015, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

Offline storage.... fixes all problems, only use it online when needed, and then back into coldc storage, never any problems

Except for the pita of having to keep shuffling them around and the unlikelyhood that the masses would ever want to learn how or do that.

Furio

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Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

Offline storage.... fixes all problems, only use it online when needed, and then back into coldc storage, never any problems

piramida

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Quote from: podyx on January 06, 2015, 11:15:40 AM

Quote from: piramida on January 06, 2015, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

By using a multisig or offline wallet, silly. https://www.bitgo.com/ you are welcome.

Or buy a Trezor if you want to safely spend your bitcoins on a malware-infested windows machine.

What happens when you lose your trezor?

you get another one and init it using offline seed. if you lose offline seed, you lose your money. trezor is good as a device for spending money, several coins to carry around; and you won't need to keep your keys on a computer connected to an internet.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: DieJohnny on January 06, 2015, 10:56:02 AM

Wouldn't Gox and Stamp be the most likely teams that would effectively be able to protect their coins?

If they can't do it, how can I, or my neighbor, or my parents?

One day I know I will wake up and my coins will be gone, just waiting for it to happen.

Bitcoin has to solve this, it has been 6 years. I think trust-less is a failed pipe dream, when it comes to protecting assets trusting ourselves appears to be a complete disaster.

No, the failure point is the human factor, the mtgox investigation already revealed that it was an inside job, and stamp and their "hack" fall into the same category.

You, and the people you know can protect your bitcoins if you keep them essentially unspendable, I know...

It's a matter of chance.

Bitcoin won't solve this, it's not intended to. It's virtual cash, with the same security implications.

Topic: Bitcoin's biggest problem - page 2. (Read 2347 times)