"Bitcoin’s Future Hinges on Donations, and That’s Got People Worried"

ABCbits

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Quote from: NotATether on March 02, 2023, 01:57:37 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on March 02, 2023, 12:24:44 AM

--snip--

Well, eventually people of course will be using Taproot in the long run, but I am talking about side projects branching from the bitcoin protocol such as DLCs, LN, and others and not the percentage of people that are using a particular address format.

--snip--

At least for LN, there's plan to switch from HTLC to PTLC (which use Taproot). But the progress seems to be slow.

NotATether

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Quote from: pooya87 on March 02, 2023, 12:24:44 AM

Quote from: NotATether on March 01, 2023, 01:10:17 PM

With the exception of Ordinals, nobody's using Taproot for anything significant so there is an argument to be made that future Bitcoin protocol feature upgrades will become less and less important to users than say, Segwit.

That's an unfair thing to say because you have to consider that many of the major wallets (that have lots of users) like Electrum have not yet implemented Taproot which is why the usage is low not because it is less important to users. In fact there is high enough demand for it but the end-user has trouble using it easily.

Well, eventually people of course will be using Taproot in the long run, but I am talking about side projects branching from the bitcoin protocol such as DLCs, LN, and others and not the percentage of people that are using a particular address format.

A software that's supposed to embody digital money, even if it will constantly get upgrades, will have only a subset of its features being used by the mass population in the long run as people generally do not adapt to new versions of a particular technology quickly.

Hence why most people are using an older phone when today's counterculture begs you to get the latest phone.

Or why people continue to use cards, cash and checks instead of CDBCs (and will stay like that for the foreseeable future)

Or even why people continue to use bitcoin despite there being 100+ hot garbage coins that are more recent and could be used instead.

pooya87

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Quote from: NotATether on March 01, 2023, 01:10:17 PM

With the exception of Ordinals, nobody's using Taproot for anything significant so there is an argument to be made that future Bitcoin protocol feature upgrades will become less and less important to users than say, Segwit.

That's an unfair thing to say because you have to consider that many of the major wallets (that have lots of users) like Electrum have not yet implemented Taproot which is why the usage is low not because it is less important to users. In fact there is high enough demand for it but the end-user has trouble using it easily.

pawel7777

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Quote from: NotATether on March 01, 2023, 01:10:17 PM

With the exception of Ordinals, nobody's using Taproot for anything significant so there is an argument to be made that future Bitcoin protocol feature upgrades will become less and less important to users than say, Segwit.

Didn't Taproot upgrade also include Schnorr signatures? Either way, there's no denying that there were plenty of useful upgrades and patches and that active development will always be required at least at some level. It'll never be a work completed, as there will always be some challenges ahead (quantum computers, possible algo changes if mining gets delegalised or someone manages to obtain majority of hash power etc)

NotATether

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Quote from: pawel7777 on February 28, 2023, 05:34:56 PM

Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

The existing BTC technology does not need to be and SHOULD NOT BE tampered with by adding things that have no bearing on what BTC was intended to do: be a means of acquiring, holding, and transferring funds with it being community developed and guided.

Lol what? So all the Segwit, Taproot, or other upgrades were not needed? Or are you implying that we won't need any sort of upgrades in the future?

With the exception of Ordinals, nobody's using Taproot for anything significant so there is an argument to be made that future Bitcoin protocol feature upgrades will become less and less important to users than say, Segwit.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 25, 2023, 10:15:40 AM

They only survive on donations too! Or Linux. Or Tor. Or Firefox. Or LibreOffice. Or GIMP. Or VLC. Or the hundreds of thousands of pieces of FOSS used around the world every day.

And that's before we even mention that the Bitcoin Core development is self-funded, since developers work on maintaining the currency they're being paid on. I can easily make a guess that the overwhelming majority of Bitcoin developers are long retired, and have decided to devote a big part of their life on coding and discussing about Bitcoin.

pooya87

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Quote from: Artemis3 on February 28, 2023, 11:19:30 AM

Too bad WIkipedia and Firefox drank the Ripple lobbying FUD and decided to ban bitcoin donations "because it hurts the environment"...

They didn't "ban" bitcoin donations, they just simply stopped accepting bitcoin donations. That's because they had revenues coming from elsewhere that was hundreds of times more than the amount they had ever received in bitcoin donations.

pawel7777

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

Donations to who?
a. The major developers involved in Core *are*already rather well paid by various interests.

Is it a bad thing if they're being paid for their work on Bitcoin and Bitcoin Core? Is this not needed? Can Bitcoin carry on without devs getting paid?

Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

b. Most of them have been involved in the development of BTC almost since it's earliest days and still have rather tidy sums of the BTC they've acquired during that time so they are certainly not hurting for money. Hell, a few years ago Luke Jr. bragged about still having several thousand BTC

So? Do you take their work for granted? Do they not deserve to get paid for their work? Do you feel like they owe you (and entire community) their time because they have some bitcoins?
They're mostly middle age now and probably will want to retire at some point. Plus, nobody lives forever. What then? Do you expect a new wave of devs (who doesn't have that emotional, early adopter mentality and doesn't hold millions in BTC) to just dedicate a big portion of their lives to Bitcoin, rather than spending that time earning big money?
ps. Luke Jr got hacked and lost ~$3 mils worth.

Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

c.You imply that some sort of continuing large-scale corporate-funded development needs to be implemented... For what? "Additional features and functions"?

I literally just posted an article and asked genuine questions. I haven't implied anything.

Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

The existing BTC technology does not need to be and SHOULD NOT BE tampered with by adding things that have no bearing on what BTC was intended to do: be a means of acquiring, holding, and transferring funds with it being community developed and guided.

Lol what? So all the Segwit, Taproot, or other upgrades were not needed? Or are you implying that we won't need any sort of upgrades in the future?

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 27, 2023, 06:15:41 AM

Now that you mention it, it's been at least a few months since I've seen a new article reminding us that bitcoin is single handedly destroying the planet. Perhaps this is the start of a new angle of attack? With Wuille, van der Laan, and now Falke all stepping down in recent months, then perhaps the next article will be about how devs are "abandoning" the project?

That will have to wait. Now there's the drama about BUSD going down, about Binance going down (I've already seen this movie after FTX, is it a re-run?)...
Now they have ammo to keep buyers worried (and losing time). When they'll get no other "news", then the "abandoning" story is just as good as any other and may worth publlishing Cheesy

Artemis3

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 25, 2023, 10:15:40 AM

Only donations!? Oh no! Better not tell these "worried people" about Wikipedia. They only survive on donations too! Or Linux. Or Tor. Or Firefox. Or LibreOffice. Or GIMP. Or VLC. Or the hundreds of thousands of pieces of FOSS used around the world every day.

Too bad WIkipedia and Firefox drank the Ripple lobbying FUD and decided to ban bitcoin donations "because it hurts the environment"...

thecodebear

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That's just pure FUD.

I mean it is open source, so anyone can contribute to it, it is not necessary for any funding at all.

But of course some organizations in the Bitcoin economy do fund people to work on it full time, and others donate to help fund people to work on it full time. This helps, but it isn't entirely necessary so no Bitcoin's Future doesn't hinge on donations.

The barrier to working on Bitcoin is ability, not funding.

Also, there is no reason the funding would dry up because they are funded by organizations in the Bitcoin ecosystem that have a business interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed and continue to advance technologically.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: gmaxwell on February 27, 2023, 03:47:16 AM

What reason do they have to exist at all, except making their founders rich at the expense of people too ignorant to realize that the decentralization just isn't there?

Well, isn't it obvious? So another centralized third party can launch a token on top of that centralized scamcoin, again making more overnight millionaires while reeling in newbies with empty promises of 200% returns if you just buy our token then immediately lock it up by staking it with yet another third party so you can't dump it on the market! Spam your Twitter followers for an extra 10%! Roll Eyes

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 27, 2023, 05:26:06 AM

I, myself, got the point: somebody wants us be worried on devs, no matter what. Is that somebody getting desperate?!

Now that you mention it, it's been at least a few months since I've seen a new article reminding us that bitcoin is single handedly destroying the planet. Perhaps this is the start of a new angle of attack? With Wuille, van der Laan, and now Falke all stepping down in recent months, then perhaps the next article will be about how devs are "abandoning" the project?

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

Donations to who?
a. The major developers involved in Core *are*already rather well paid by various interests.

I don't know who is coming up with these news, but one day they're worried because the devs don't have their ID and driving license posted on git, next day we have to be worried because they are paid by this or that companies, hence their work may be biased, and third day they post that the devs are paid by donations and that's not a good model.

I, myself, got the point: somebody wants us be worried on devs, no matter what. Is that somebody getting desperate?!

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on February 24, 2023, 09:22:00 PM

b. Most of them have been involved in the development of BTC almost since it's earliest days and still have rather tidy sums of the BTC they've acquired during that time so they are certainly not hurting for money. Hell, a few years ago Luke Jr. bragged about still having several thousand BTC ...

Let's not circulate the idea that Core devs are swimming in BTC. $5 wrenches and what not, you know. Also, wasn't there an instance where Luke lost all his coins?

gmaxwell

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 25, 2023, 10:15:40 AM

Imagine trying to pass off the lack of a pre-mine as a disadvantage of bitcoin. Oh no, bitcoin exists to be a currency and not just to make its centralized owners overnight billionaires! Roll Eyes

Decentralization has many serous disadvantages-- among them that getting importance maintenance done can be challenging.

But it also has many advantages, which is why Bitcoin exists in the first place.

These centralized scamcoins that have no difficulty keeping development funded with their premines and controlling foundations. What reason do they have to exist at all, except making their founders rich at the expense of people too ignorant to realize that the decentralization just isn't there?

aylabadia05

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Quote from: pawel7777 on February 24, 2023, 06:18:14 PM

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/bitcoin-future-hinges-donations-got-194653381.html

[snip]

This is an example of a conversation that I quoted from the source listed in this topic.

Quote

Lee doesn't believe Bitcoin, even in the most dire funding situation, will ever go completely bust.

"Even in the worst-case scenario, there's still several organisations that fund Bitcoin development," Lee explained. "As far as I know, they're not in a situation where the budgets can disappear, and that includes Spiral and also includes Chaincode Labs and Brink."

In short, I think there is no need for donations like their conversation in the article even though I am not an expert who has broader knowledge about Bitcoin development. The future of Bitcoin does not depend on donations.
The question what if the funds dry up what will happen? It crosses my mind that Bitcoin has proven to many that it is able to survive since its inception until now.

NotATether

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If there is enough passion in the developers then you don't need any amount of donations to keep the project going. It's only when you want to make the developers work full time on this that you better start covering their living expenses.

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Quote from: pawel7777 on February 24, 2023, 06:18:14 PM

Is Bitcoin development being dependent on funding from crypto-businesses a potential threat? What's the worst that could happen if the funding dries up and there are only a handful of dedicated devs dedicating only their spare time? Will Bitcoin survive?

Even in worst case scenario if all current developers stop updating code Bitcoin would not suddenly die and stop working.
Everything is working fine now, with only small bugs being corrected from time to time, but there are volunteers helping all the time.
Bitcoin will survive and thrive, and much bigger danger is that some malicious developers try to harm Bitcoin from the inside.

Quote from: pawel7777 on February 24, 2023, 06:18:14 PM

I think the $150-$200 mil/year to maintain the entire ecosystem is likely exaggerated, but what's the minimum level of funding, if any?

It's not realistic to count anything in dollars or any other fiat currency because of constant inflation going up.
I think developers are mostly receiving payments in Bitcoin.

o_e_l_e_o

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Only donations!? Oh no! Better not tell these "worried people" about Wikipedia. They only survive on donations too! Or Linux. Or Tor. Or Firefox. Or LibreOffice. Or GIMP. Or VLC. Or the hundreds of thousands of pieces of FOSS used around the world every day.

Maybe Bitcoin Corp needs to downsize. Get employees to work from home. Sell up their office space. Maybe they'll have to cut some of their customer support agents. Shut down some of the Bitcoin Corp servers. Roll Eyes

Quote

Ethereum, for example, was pre-mined ~ the Ethereum Foundation which held $1.6 billion
Bitcoin doesn’t have $1.6 billion lying around to fund development.

Imagine trying to pass off the lack of a pre-mine as a disadvantage of bitcoin. Oh no, bitcoin exists to be a currency and not just to make its centralized owners overnight billionaires! Roll Eyes

Lucius

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What kind of "top" journalism is this? The way I see it, someone is trying to say that pre-mined shitocins have a much higher chance of success because that way they will be able to pay their developers, while those who work for the benefit of Bitcoin will sooner or later dry up Roll Eyes

So if people are already worried about what will happen when the last Bitcoin is mined in 100+ years, or whether Satoshi will appear with his 1+ million BTC or whether we will remain in the dark because of BTC mining - then this is just one more doubt on the list of those we really need to worry about...

Topic: "Bitcoin’s Future Hinges on Donations, and That’s Got People Worried" (Read 411 times)