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Topic: Bitcoins have lost $174,108,376.60 since June 9th 2011 - page 2. (Read 6826 times)

dsp
newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
Well using this math every time BTCUSD moves $0.01 its costing someone $73K.

Correct!!   it's costing the market $73,000 (or increasing the value of holders by an aggregate amount of $73,000)

So looking at mtgox I can move the price up a penny by buying $800 of coins right now. Makes you wonder why no one is doing this. $800 = $70K. Its like a printing press with this new math.

It's not new math,  it's how things have been done since the Egyptians and Romans measured their relative Money Supply



Yea but until you execute a trade it a unrealized gain/loss. So its not real....ized

The point being is in the short term inflation is out of hand cause if you or the market don't have the 73k per Penney to hold the price where you want it, your at the whim of the market. But even this is a lie as well as not everyone is in agreement with the current buyers/sellers or price. To further complicate this they may not show their hand and give you a hair cut until you push it far enough oooooo like lets say $35. If you buy coins at that price and did not do the simple math that satoshi put right in-front of your face. Now consider this that only what it takes to hold the price in the face of 1/3 of the coins being issued. Had the coin supply been cut off the inflation would not have choked out the parabolic move and it would have collapsed much further maybe to zero in a panic. So as a currency it is better to have a smaller run and a smaller collapse. Bulls can take a 50% short term loss if the prospects are still good. But if it droped by 95%, you would get people to cut run and never come back. And by looking at the weighted price most people paid around $10. In the short run the bears are right as we have to wait for economic activity to cause the shortage and spike the price. In the long run the bulls win out. The issue then is to figure out the growth rate so you can reasonable predict when this might happen, all i know is it wont be a linear run so in the next 24 months I bet some one will be-able to fit a log scale that can predict within +-10%.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500

yes!  it does.. why do you think these private "wanna go public" companies try to find VC firms that will buy .01% of their firms for a million bucks... because it values them at a billion.

Cool I just fed a horse a few million then.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Bitcoin
um, is the web calc flawed?  From the calculator:
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________
This represents a net loss of $209,999,965.00 from peak to this exact moment (updated in real time) of the entire bitcoin economy.
If Bitcoins were stable at their peak of $35 on June 9, 2011 , the bitcoin economy would be worth $257,530,000.00 rather than $35,846,278.50
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________

My simple math notices the 209,999,965 number doesn't change and $257,530,000.00 minus $35,846,278.50 = $221,683,721.50

Also, if the market was worth $210million and is now $35million, most people would say it is $175million lower.  


This represents a net loss of $174,108,376.60 from peak to this exact moment (updated in real time) of the entire bitcoin economy.   You did find a bug.  it had it pulling from variable A instead of B ..

So the net loss was $174,108,376.60

Now that's out of the way Smiley




legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1016
Strength in numbers
Wow, that is a crazy stat, think of the huge loss of the early adopters, glad I wasn't one of those.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
::sigh::

When price is rising, people complain about "deflationary spirals" and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

When price is falling, people complain about inflation and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

Are we so enmeshed in a centrally-planned, price-controlled economy that the first sign of true free-market price discovery simply scares us to death?

Bitcoin  is/will be the most volatile asset the world has ever seen. Set your expectations accordingly. Relax.

+1

It has been a wild ride and we are just starting! 
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
um, is the web calc flawed?  From the calculator:
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________
This represents a net loss of $209,999,965.00 from peak to this exact moment (updated in real time) of the entire bitcoin economy.
If Bitcoins were stable at their peak of $35 on June 9, 2011 , the bitcoin economy would be worth $257,530,000.00 rather than $35,846,278.50
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________

My simple math notices the 209,999,965 number doesn't change and $257,530,000.00 minus $35,846,278.50 = $221,683,721.50

Also, if the market was worth $210million and is now $35million, most people would say it is $175million lower. 
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
good

flush all the speculators out of bitcoin

then you get a stable trading price
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Bitcoin
See again,  everyone combined spent 210,000,000 in coins...  either by trading, mining, selling....  so yes,  EVERYONE spent $210,000,000

Flatout wrong.
If I create a new currency, P4coins, I mine 10M then sell one for $1 to my idiot neighbor. Does that mean P4coins are worth $10M ?

yes!  it does.. why do you think these private "wanna go public" companies try to find VC firms that will buy .01% of their firms for a million bucks... because it values them at a billion.

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
The market is figuring out what these weird things are worth. We know they're worth somewhere between $0 and $1 billion each, right?

I would recommend to express the value in baskets of wheat/rice/potatos, unless you know the future value of the USD. In which case i would appreciate a hint.  Wink

Hehehe yes I know the future value of the US dollar, and thus I'd put the exchange rate closer to $1 billion / btc ...  Of course, it may also be $1 billion/potato as well =)

newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
The market is figuring out what these weird things are worth. We know they're worth somewhere between $0 and $1 billion each, right?

I would recommend to express the value in baskets of wheat/rice/potatos, unless you know the future value of the USD. In which case i would appreciate a hint.  Wink
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
See again,  everyone combined spent 210,000,000 in coins...  either by trading, mining, selling....  so yes,  EVERYONE spent $210,000,000

Flatout wrong.
If I create a new currency, P4coins, I mine 10M then sell one for $1 to my idiot neighbor. Does that mean P4coins are worth $10M ?
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Well using this math every time BTCUSD moves $0.01 its costing someone $73K.

Or if it moves $.01 in the other direction, someone earned $73K. Enough to buy a poker client and parlay into billions.

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack

That point is right evoorhees  ...  I know that...  I think most of us know this.. (hopefully)  ... but I had to make the point that we're doing things so weird (printing when value is decreasing)  that it's never going to be a currency...  it's going to widely rocket back and fourth like a commodity...   Bitcoins officially at this stage are not a currency...   it's oil,  or natural gas, gold or silver..  some currency aspects.. but it's not a currency..
 

A good currency is a commodity - it is that commodity which is most widely desired and accepted in an economy. Currencies and commodities are not mutually exclusive, the former is simply the most widely desired latter.

Bitcoin in its current stage, and for the foreseeable future, will be in a volatile period of price discovery. The market is figuring out what these weird things are worth. We know they're worth somewhere between $0 and $1 billion each, right? Well, where exactly is the correct valuation? It will take much time, much speculation, and much correction both up and down before the volatility subsides.

The volatility of Bitcoin is not a bug, nor does it preclude ultimate adoption. It is an expected attribute of a commodity so revolutionary, uncontrolled, and new. Volatility will fall over time, with the Bitcoin being valued at $0, or something above that.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1008
That point is right evoorhees  ...  I know that...  I think most of us know this.. (hopefully)  ... but I had to make the point that we're doing things so weird (printing when value is decreasing)  that it's never going to be a currency...  it's going to widely rocket back and fourth like a commodity...   Bitcoins officially at this stage are not a currency...   it's oil,  or natural gas, gold or silver..  some currency aspects.. but it's not a currency..
I use it as a currency almost every day.  Therefore, it's a currency.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Bitcoin
::sigh::

When price is rising, people complain about "deflationary spirals" and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

When price is falling, people complain about inflation and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

Are we so enmeshed in a centrally-planned, price-controlled economy that the first sign of true free-market price discovery simply scares us to death?

Bitcoin  is/will be the most volatile asset the world has ever seen. Set your expectations accordingly. Relax.

That point is right evoorhees  ...  I know that...  I think most of us know this.. (hopefully)  ... but I had to make the point that we're doing things so weird (printing when value is decreasing)  that it's never going to be a currency...  it's going to widely rocket back and fourth like a commodity...   Bitcoins officially at this stage are not a currency...   it's oil,  or natural gas, gold or silver..  some currency aspects.. but it's not a currency..
Thus, The Founder ought to stop preoccupying his concerns with the inflation rate...

It's hard to when demand is almost directly related to price... as it is a commodity.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
::sigh::

When price is rising, people complain about "deflationary spirals" and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

When price is falling, people complain about inflation and the failure of Bitcoin to not match up with demand.

Are we so enmeshed in a centrally-planned, price-controlled economy that the first sign of true free-market price discovery simply scares us to death?

Bitcoin  is/will be the most volatile asset the world has ever seen. Set your expectations accordingly. Relax.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Bitcoin

Founder - I gotta refute this stuff.

Yes, your figures are 100% accurate. Nobody is refuting the numbers. Rather, it is the implications you're drawing from those figures which are problematic.

- A $100,000,000 fall in the market cap of Bitcoins is not correctly described as a "$100,000,000 loss".  The aggregate value of all coins fell by $100,000,000, true, but only after rising by more than that immediately prior. Just as if you bought Apple stock for $100, and it rises to $200, then falls to $130, it would be misleading to say that one's investment brought about a $70 loss. What you're doing is taking the potential loss of a person who bought at the peak, and applying that to the entire bitcoin community, and claiming a hundred million dollars have been lost.

- And I've seen you post frequently on the topic of inflation. You seem severely against the fact that coins are created so quickly - and you ascribe the loss in market value to this inflation rate. This too is misleading. Remember, the inflation rate HAS NOT CHANGED at any time since Bitcoins were worth less than a penny to when they were worth $30. The fact is that their meteoric rise earlier this year occurred in the exact same inflationary environment. In other words, the inflation rate is not the primary driver of market price. Rather, it's the sentiment of individual buyers and sellers which is the primary driver of market price. If sentiment changes, the price can quite quickly skyrocket again, regardless of the 7200 coins printed each day.

- Finally, you said, "the whole bitcoin economy is decreasing value so fast."  This is utterly false. You are again confusing the market price of a Bitcoin with the value of the economy.  Just as the market price of a dollar doesn't determine the value of the USD economy, neither does the market price of a Bitcoin determine the value of the BTC economy. Similarly, just as the value of the dollar has fallen continually for the past 80 years, the value of the USD economy is vastly larger now than it was then. Same with Bitcoins - just as the value of the Bitcoin has fallen continually for the past few months, the value of the BTC economy is larger now than it was back then.

Confusing the value of all the economic behavior and production of the Bitcoin world with the current spot price of a Bitcoin is folly, and I can tell it's bringing you great distress. The Bitcoin economy is getting more valuable, productive, diverse, and secure with each passing month, and a falling spot price of Bitcoins does not in any way refute this claim.

===
- The peak price was used of course to show the magnitude of the problem,  however even at $17 dollars it's still a $100,000,000 dollar loss.

- Regarding inflation ..  I know the inflation rate hasn't changed,  that's the problem... because the demand changed but inflation didn't match the weakening demand... and the point is that the BTC economy HAS shrunk...  while we're printing them off at a crazy astronomical rate.

- I will cede to you that new software and development is going into bitcoins,  I personally put $100,000 USD into flexcoin ...  I'm sure Mt. Gox, Tradehill, CampBX and others have invested as well...  so yes it's getting better .. but still not enough at that inflation rate to increase demand.

Do you honestly think that if you had $250 million that you could buy 7 million bitcoins today?  I doubt it.

No what's I'm saying is that I could buy all the bitcoins technically at a fraction of that, 36 million.   However in real life everyone knows that if someone went on a buying spree of that magnitude of course the prices would rise ..  I might get about 25% of all the bitcoins out there however with just 36 million...   If demand increased 36 million it would most likely send bitcoins to about 9 dollars if done over the course of a few weeks..  

This is not quite correct.  The inflation rate has in fact been steadily declining.  From block 0 to block 1, the annualized inflation rate was infinitely large.  From block 1 to block 2, the annualized inflation rate was 5,256,000%.  Currently the annualized inflation rate is ~35.7%.

That is correct,  but the creation rate (not percentage) is still set at about 250 dollars every 10 minutes...  (50 BTC per 10 block) ...  as a percentage it decreases...  because the amount of bitcoins is so bloated and getting bigger. 



legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
Remember, the inflation rate HAS NOT CHANGED at any time since Bitcoins were worth less than a penny to when they were worth $30. The fact is that their meteoric rise earlier this year occurred in the exact same inflationary environment.
This is not quite correct.  The inflation rate has in fact been steadily declining.  From block 0 to block 1, the annualized inflation rate was infinitely large.  From block 1 to block 2, the annualized inflation rate was 5,256,000%.  Currently the annualized inflation rate is ~35.7%.


Okay you're right  Smiley, the rate is constantly changing, but the quantity of new coins per day is not changing. However, this further proves my point - for the meteoric rise in price occurred under a higher rate of inflation than what we're currently experiencing.

Thus, The Founder ought to stop preoccupying his concerns with the inflation rate...
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1008
Remember, the inflation rate HAS NOT CHANGED at any time since Bitcoins were worth less than a penny to when they were worth $30. The fact is that their meteoric rise earlier this year occurred in the exact same inflationary environment.
This is not quite correct.  The inflation rate has in fact been steadily declining.  From block 0 to block 1, the annualized inflation rate was infinitely large.  From block 1 to block 2, the annualized inflation rate was 5,256,000%.  Currently the annualized inflation rate is ~35.7%.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Bitcoin
Well using this math every time BTCUSD moves $0.01 its costing someone $73K.

Correct!!   it's costing the market $73,000 (or increasing the value of holders by an aggregate amount of $73,000)

So looking at mtgox I can move the price up a penny by buying $800 of coins right now. Makes you wonder why no one is doing this. $800 = $70K. Its like a printing press with this new math.

It's not new math,  it's how things have been done since the Egyptians and Romans measured their relative Money Supply

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