Islamic banking has an interesting take on usury. I think this reference is interesting in the context of this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
"The Vatican has put forward the idea that "the principles of Islamic finance may represent a possible cure for ailing markets."[18]"
Topic: Bitcoins interest rates possible? - page 3. (Read 6542 times)
Yes, but even after a court decision a million policemen are not able to wrench the money from your hands.
The problem is that then you probably can not trade in that jurisdiction anymore. Obviously its not unheard for some people to not pay the debts. In Europe a lot of people, specially inmigrants, have fleed the country leaving the unpayed mortgage behind. But they can not expect to come bank ever. Some people might preffer to pay the debt than to go away from their home, family and friends.
Funkypala, welcome again.
There are ways to enforce contracts through private institutions. First, you have ostracism. If someone violates a contract he/she will find it hard that other people trust him/her and trade with him/her. So there is an incentive to respect contracts. Second, you have the legal system, the courts. This legal system can be a government monpolly or private. It would be a long to discuss both systems, but basically the bank can use the legal system to enforce the contract.
I thought about that, too. My conclusion: A bank who gives loans to people is impossible, because it cannot enforce that people pay back their debts.
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
There are ways to enforce contracts through private institutions. First, you have ostracism. If someone violates a contract he/she will find it hard that other people trust him/her and trade with him/her. So there is an incentive to respect contracts. Second, you have the legal system, the courts. This legal system can be a government monpolly or private. It would be a long to discuss both systems, but basically the bank can use the legal system to enforce the contract.
Yes, but even after a court decision a million policemen are not able to wrench the money from your hands.
Funkypala, welcome again.
There are ways to enforce contracts through private institutions. First, you have ostracism. If someone violates a contract he/she will find it hard that other people trust him/her and trade with him/her. So there is an incentive to respect contracts. Second, you have the legal system, the courts. This legal system can be a government monpolly or private. It would be a long to discuss both systems, but basically the bank can use the legal system to enforce the contract.
I thought about that, too. My conclusion: A bank who gives loans to people is impossible, because it cannot enforce that people pay back their debts.
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
There are ways to enforce contracts through private institutions. First, you have ostracism. If someone violates a contract he/she will find it hard that other people trust him/her and trade with him/her. So there is an incentive to respect contracts. Second, you have the legal system, the courts. This legal system can be a government monpolly or private. It would be a long to discuss both systems, but basically the bank can use the legal system to enforce the contract.
I thought about that, too. My conclusion: A bank who gives loans to people is impossible, because it cannot enforce that people pay back their debts.
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
Even if you know the identity, what are you gonna do? Torture him to release his passwords?
Alright i decided to get some ground info on our banking system and started to watch this video which explains our system pretty well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMPPeWYL5uk
I am a little relieved since it explains that the main problem of our time are not interest rates, but the creating of money out of nothing from debts. You might have to watch the video to understand what i mean.
And this money creation can t be done with Bitcoins.
Well now i believe in Bitcoins again. They will make the world a less corrupt place, and we can be part of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMPPeWYL5uk
I am a little relieved since it explains that the main problem of our time are not interest rates, but the creating of money out of nothing from debts. You might have to watch the video to understand what i mean.
And this money creation can t be done with Bitcoins.
Well now i believe in Bitcoins again. They will make the world a less corrupt place, and we can be part of this
Can I suggest that the number of you who think interest is bad go and read some Bastiat.
He wrote all about this subject when the French government was discussing banning interest on capital.
You can even read it for free; I think it's available on mises.org.
He wrote all about this subject when the French government was discussing banning interest on capital.
You can even read it for free; I think it's available on mises.org.
Just to be clear, nobody is saying that debt is always good, nobody is defending the present monetary system, comparing the present levels of debt and specially the way it comes about to slavery is quite accurate. Nobody is disagreeing with you there. I personally try to stay away from debt as much as I can as well.
The problem is that some justifications you are giving are objectively wrong, false. That is what the people here is trying to point out.
+1
the problem is really debt for consumption, as opposed to using capital for production.
and I'd include government consumption here, often enough incentivised by central banks.
Quote
The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt.
nonsense.
I don't have anything against bitcoins per se. They can be, and probably will be, a form of money. That doesn't mean that banks won't lend you money or that interest will go away or fractional reserves won't work. These games will be our undoing and are separate problems we'll have to deal with. Personally, I chose to remain debt free at all times, can't stand interest, or bankers for that matter, and I don't want to get caught in that evil downward spiral. I don't owe anyone jack sh*t and love it that way.
Just to be clear, nobody is saying that debt is always good, nobody is defending the present monetary system, comparing the present levels of debt and specially the way it comes about to slavery is quite accurate. Nobody is disagreeing with you there. I personally try to stay away from debt as much as I can as well.
The problem is that some justifications you are giving are objectively wrong, false. That is what the people here is trying to point out.
Quote
The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt.
nonsense.
I don't have anything against bitcoins per se. They can be, and probably will be, a form of money. That doesn't mean that banks won't lend you money or that interest will go away or fractional reserves won't work. These games will be our undoing and are separate problems we'll have to deal with. Personally, I chose to remain debt free at all times, can't stand interest, or bankers for that matter, and I don't want to get caught in that evil downward spiral. I don't owe anyone jack sh*t and love it that way.
It's the way the game is played I don't like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkwntLNTOU#t=12m38s Watch the whole video, it's quite interesting.
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
jeez...a bunch of economic illiterates trying to run a currency.
work for a car company. take out a loan from them to buy a car from them. earn part of their profits for your work in the future and pay back the loan with interest
everything "existed" and nothing is created out of thin air. as simple as this is, the real world works the same there are just more intermediary steps.
if bitcoin will ever be widely accepted, there automatically will banking, there will even be fractional reserve banking, there will be interest.
Never said profit doesn't exist. Profit is just an increase in value. You can create profit by adding value to something either by effort, time, resources or demand.
Lending money for money creates nothing of value. Money is simply a medium of exchange. Adding interest to money is a sure way for someone to get it all in the end, much like we'll have soon in the reality of this world. Explain to me how can every country be in debt? The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt. The game is rigged and we are all losers when interest comes in play. Interest is an insatiable monster that will eventually swallow everything, including the lender.
Lending money is also a great way to create slaves...Usury, was once punishable by death. That's when they use to understand what it caused. Now, most don't give a f*ck as long as they make something for nothing, much like the speculators. Good luck with that.
put aside your ideology and try to think for a moment.
you didnt say profit doesnt exist, but you imply that by saying the interest portion of a loan doesnt exist.
profit requires running a business, running a business requires capital, like machines. the guy who provides machines ( = the money to buy them) doesnt like to take that risk for free. his compensation is interest and is payed from the business' profit.
nothing is out of thin air, and nothing of this is evil.
Quote
The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt.
nonsense.
The increasing intrinsic value in a deflationary currency should take care of anything and more inflation does to safeguard fiat currencies.
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
jeez...a bunch of economic illiterates trying to run a currency.
work for a car company. take out a loan from them to buy a car from them. earn part of their profits for your work in the future and pay back the loan with interest
everything "existed" and nothing is created out of thin air. as simple as this is, the real world works the same there are just more intermediary steps.
if bitcoin will ever be widely accepted, there automatically will banking, there will even be fractional reserve banking, there will be interest.
Never said profit doesn't exist. Profit is just an increase in value. You can create profit by adding value to something either by effort, time, resources or demand.
Lending money for money creates nothing of value. Money is simply a medium of exchange. Adding interest to money is a sure way for someone to get it all in the end, much like we'll have soon in the reality of this world. Explain to me how can every country be in debt? The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt. The game is rigged and we are all losers when interest comes in play. Interest is an insatiable monster that will eventually swallow everything, including the lender.
Lending money is also a great way to create slaves...Usury, was once punishable by death. That's when they use to understand what it caused. Now, most don't give a f*ck as long as they make something for nothing, much like the speculators. Good luck with that.
Totally agree with the bold part above
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
We, and the world, is in so much debt due to interest we can never pay back. We should learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes. Unfortunately, history always repeats itself and we'll also screw ourselves with bitcoins too. Sigh.
This is false, as several people have noted before in this post. Re-read the answers.
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
jeez...a bunch of economic illiterates trying to run a currency.
work for a car company. take out a loan from them to buy a car from them. earn part of their profits for your work in the future and pay back the loan with interest
everything "existed" and nothing is created out of thin air. as simple as this is, the real world works the same there are just more intermediary steps.
if bitcoin will ever be widely accepted, there automatically will banking, there will even be fractional reserve banking, there will be interest.
Never said profit doesn't exist. Profit is just an increase in value. You can create profit by adding value to something either by effort, time, resources or demand.
Lending money for money creates nothing of value. Money is simply a medium of exchange. Adding interest to money is a sure way for someone to get it all in the end, much like we'll have soon in the reality of this world. Explain to me how can every country be in debt? The only way for someone to get out of debt is to put someone else in even more debt. The game is rigged and we are all losers when interest comes in play. Interest is an insatiable monster that will eventually swallow everything, including the lender.
Lending money is also a great way to create slaves...Usury, was once punishable by death. That's when they use to understand what it caused. Now, most don't give a f*ck as long as they make something for nothing, much like the speculators. Good luck with that.
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
jeez...a bunch of economic illiterates trying to run a currency.
work for a car company. take out a loan from them to buy a car from them. earn part of their profits for your work in the future and pay back the loan with interest
everything "existed" and nothing is created out of thin air. as simple as this is, the real world works the same there are just more intermediary steps.
if bitcoin will ever be widely accepted, there automatically will banking, there will even be fractional reserve banking, there will be interest.
Is it evil to rent a house?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a car?
...
Is it evil to rent a sum of money?
Is it evil to rent a sum of money? In my opinion, absolutely! Because interest to be paid on your loan, in simplistic terms, doesn't exist. You must pay back the original principal + interest. The interest portion doesn't exist and cannot be created out of thin air.
We, and the world, is in so much debt due to interest we can never pay back. We should learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes. Unfortunately, history always repeats itself and we'll also screw ourselves with bitcoins too. Sigh.
What it is true is that under a deflationary system there is less incentive to go into debt so usually there is less debt in a deflationay system that under a inflationary system. Inflation promotes debt. But there are other factors that influence as well.
How do you figure? In an inflationary system, interest rates are higher.Usually real interest rates are lower under inflationary system becuase usually the newly printed money comes in through loans. Because banks have more money to loan real interest rates are lower, at least for a while (during the bubble phase, when the bubble pahse is over interest rates skyrocket).
While it could seem that more loans is better, its the contrary. Inflation stops growth because it creates malinvestments.
interest is creating money that should not exist, it has immediate benefits for the person receiving the interest but devalues the currency
No.
i replace this with a brainfart.... san mind was not thinking correctly
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