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Topic: Bitcoin’s race to outrun the quantum computer - page 2. (Read 1495 times)

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
One thing I don’t understand in the whole discussion; if RSA or ECC are compromised in the future, we can upgrade existing systems of course (and we’ll have to ... whole PKI will come tumbling down), but won’t this make dormant wallets vulnerable? How are we going to prevent someone stealing the funds from there?

yes, this is one of 2 reasons why a post-quantum fork is contentious. (the second one being that all known post-QC signatures are extremely large and therefore will bloat the blockchain)

the solution that's primarily been suggested is to destroy all ECDSA-secured outputs after a certain date (eg 5 years after the post-quantum fork occurs) to give people ample time to secure their coins while also preventing massive theft by QC.

unfortunately, this solution is extremely unpopular since many users believe it's wrong to ever destroy/steal someone else's outputs. so we're at an impasse and i dunno how it will be resolved. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4isxjr/petition_to_protect_satoshis_coins/d30we6f/
newbie
Activity: 17
Merit: 2
One thing I don’t understand in the whole discussion; if RSA or ECC are compromised in the future, we can upgrade existing systems of course (and we’ll have to ... whole PKI will come tumbling down), but won’t this make dormant wallets vulnerable? How are we going to prevent someone stealing the funds from there? Otherwise that will cause a huge drop in the value of Bitcoin. We can’t put a wrapper or something around those wallets, right?

I am a tech guy, not an economist, so not sure if my reasoning makes sense!
staff
Activity: 3304
Merit: 4115
Quantum computers are not as far from life as we think. Look at Amazon's new services. Offer for commercial use. And why is everyone obsessed with these qubit calculators? Cryptography on elliptic curves has compromised itself for a long time, they just don’t write about it.
What new services offer quantum computers? I'm not sure what you're referring too, but Amazon does not offer anything even near the capabilities of a quantum computer. If the elliptic curves were compromised critically it would be a issue that would likely be put on top of the priority list. Elliptic curves to my knowledge, and many others has not been compromised.

You make some good posts regarding Bitcoin, but a lot of it is scaremongering similar to the scaremongering tactics used by news outlets. Maybe not intentionally, but suggesting that elliptic curves have been compromised, and then later stating they have weaknesses is inaccurate. They have not been compromised, but they do have strengths, and weaknesses just like any other cryptography.
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1362
Computing, security, encryption, and hacking has always been and will likely always be a cat and mouse game.  It's not like we all woke up one day and found all of our security that was based on SHA-1 encryption was hosed by every hacker on the planet, it was a gradual shift.  As computers get faster, encryption will need to become stronger, and it's the faster computers that will enable stronger encryption.

Good points, well they sound logical to me as a non technical person anyway.
The OP quote elludes to the point that QC can be used for both good and bad.
As computing gets faster and faster so too will technologies move to incorporate
and protect against the speed.

"Quantum-resistant techniques
Quantum computing can be just as effective for cryptographers as it is for hackers. Unobserved, superpositioned particles exist in multiple states, but when detected, they “collapse” to one point in space-time. Quantum cryptography has the same properties; because the protons that make up an encoded transaction shift upon observation, a successful attacker would have to break the laws of physics to intercept it."
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1080
Quantum computing wont be a problem for Bitcoin anytime soon. Advancements will make quantum obsolete as well.
-----------------
Bitcoins steal without the help of a quantum computer. Anonymity of bitcoin owners is eliminated without quantum helpers.

In new public key cryptographic systems that claim to be post quantum, they find vulnerabilities without the help of a quantum computer and without guessing the key.

The fear of the quantum computer is similar to the fear of the monkey, the new big monkey.

Our main danger is people using their intelligence to cheat, not a stick and brute force.

So I agree that our security won't suffer much from quantum computing.

I am not certain what you mean by Bitcoins steal without the help of a quantum computer but the anonymity of Bitcoin owners is not eliminated without the help of quantum computing. Bitcoin is not a very good currency for maintaining anonymity and there are probably better options out there if that is a concern. Everything is displayed on the Blockchain for a reason and that goes directly against privacy of funds. As soon as you post an address online to receive a payment you are tied to that address. There are ways to use Bitcoin to maintain privacy a little better but at its core Bitcoin does not compare to Monero for privacy.

The fear of quantum computers is real. Although it is blown out of the world by the media outlets of this world and they try to sell the idea that in a couple of years we are all doomed because of these super computers which are capable of destroying all technology which we all know to be completely false. it is theoretically possible for a quantum computer to break Bitcoins algorithm in its current state however the argument against this is it will be a very long time until a quantum computer is capable and by the time that happens Bitcoin would have probably adopted a quantum computer resistant protocol.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 120
Quantum computing wont be a problem for Bitcoin anytime soon. Advancements will make quantum obsolete as well.
-----------------
Bitcoins steal without the help of a quantum computer. Anonymity of bitcoin owners is eliminated without quantum helpers.

In new public key cryptographic systems that claim to be post quantum, they find vulnerabilities without the help of a quantum computer and without guessing the key.

The fear of the quantum computer is similar to the fear of the monkey, the new big monkey.

Our main danger is people using their intelligence to cheat, not a stick and brute force.

So I agree that our security won't suffer much from quantum computing.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 120
Quantum computers are not as far from life as we think. Look at Amazon's new services. Offer for commercial use. And why is everyone obsessed with these qubit calculators? Cryptography on elliptic curves has compromised itself for a long time, they just don’t write about it.

Those who believe that ESDSA can only be destroyed by brute force attacks are mistaken. This is a common misconception that is supported by most.
And I will allow myself to object.

A long time ago, not full-time employees of GCHQ (a division of the British special services) made public, but the mathematicians of the CESG unit, which is responsible for national ciphers and the protection of government communications systems in the UK. The close interaction between the GCHQ and the NSA is taking place primarily along the lines of joint intelligence activities. In other words, since the NSA also has its own IAD (Information Assurance Directorate) department specializing in the development of cryptographic algorithms and information protection, the discovery of British colleagues was a complete surprise for the mathematicians of this unit. And for the first time they learned about it from their fellow spies who closely interact with the British ...

So, when the Americans learned what the British found, they immediately abandoned cryptography on elliptical curves. And the situation is beneficial for them when the public does not refuse this encryption system. This is their jackpot!

Blockchain is hanging by a thread. The blockchain is saved by the non-compromised hashing function and its massive use.

The danger of cryptography on elliptic curves lies in the elliptic curves themselves. They have weaknesses. That is why, back in 2015, the NSA (USA) opposed this type of cryptography, despite the fact that earlier it conducted a campaign only for this cryptography. And after 2015, she again returned to the old RCA system. And this despite the very large key length relative to ECC keys.

We do not know the answer to the question of how many classes of weak elliptic curves were found by NIST.

I also have no answer to this question, but this is a logical and important question. We know that NIST, at least, has successfully standardized a vulnerable random number generator (a generator that is based on the same elliptic curves).

I do not want to repeat here a very large text, described this in my post on December 04 (there are 2 posts, written on December 4), read the second, topic:
--------------------
This material answers important 2 questions:
1. Is cryptography on elliptic curves as secure as we think?
2. Are quantum computing really dangerous for modern public key cryptosystems?
..............................
Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5204368.40

I do not know more convincing evidence than those written there.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
Blockchain latest news: a state-owned quantum computer could break blockchains in as little as three years  https://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/3033006/state-owned-quantum-computer-break-blockchains-three-years 'A commercially viable quantum computer is still probably a decade away but the first rudimentary, state-owned device capable of breaking common one-way encryption algorithms like AES and elliptic curve cryptography could be with us much sooner.'
'Whoever achieves it first - and it could be within as little as three years according to Cheng - don't expect to learn about it in the news.'

Post quantum we will have lots of forks. But the quantum upgraded original chain with all the mined coins will be the strongest. Anyone who has the privatekey of an old address can now move their coins and they will be quantum secure. Otherwise they are 'shalecoins' and have no owner and will be 'fracked'. These coins are the reward of their 'frackers'. If some think that the 'shalecoins' should be locked/destroyed, they can use the fork with excluded 'shalecoins'. They are already discussing such things: Fork and Destroy Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoin? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/fork-and-destroy-satoshis-1-million-bitcoin-5131393

No matter what, a decade is not such a long time. We should be discussing this stuff today.
Yes, squatter.
Quantum computers will surprise the Bitcoin community. The 'shalecoins' will be moved and will become active. Thereafter BTC owners will decide, which fork they want to use.

I have no idea and I just learned it from this thread. Those coins in Satoshi's wallet will then be activated which sooner there might not have forgotten coins after all. I guess we can all say Bitcoin will live on to be 21M in total. Nothings wasted and SAtoshi has really thought all of these will happen one day.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441


Maybe this competition is intended to create encryption standards utilized by the entire world that have backdoors or vulnerabilities specifically engineered into them?

It could be a decent security practice to avoid whatever encryption standards are produced as a result of this?

If you are paranoid about the outcome of this US sponsored competition to come up with encryption standards, then you should be paranoid about Bitcoin's SHA256, Tor or anything else that came out of US related activity.



BTW for anyone who thinks caution on NIST building backdoors into encryption standards is "paranoia" the following is an interesting read.

Quote
NSA Backdoors and Bitcoin

Many cryptographic standards widely used in commercial applications were developed by the U.S. Government’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Normally government involvement in developing ciphers for public use would throw up red flags, however all of the algorithms are part of the public domain and have been analyzed and vetted by professional cryptographers who know what they’re doing. Unless the government has access to some highly advanced math not known to academia, these ciphers should be secure.

We now know, however, that this isn’t the case. Back in 2007, Bruce Schneier reported on a backdoor found in NIST’s Dual_EC_DRBG random number generator:

But today there’s an even bigger stink brewing around Dual_EC_DRBG. In an informal presentation(.pdf) at the CRYPTO 2007 conference in August, Dan Shumow and Niels Ferguson showed that the algorithm contains a weakness that can only be described as a backdoor.

This is how it works: There are a bunch of constants — fixed numbers — in the standard used to define the algorithm’s elliptic curve. These constants are listed in Appendix A of the NIST publication, but nowhere is it explained where they came from.

What Shumow and Ferguson showed is that these numbers have a relationship with a second, secret set of numbers that can act as a kind of skeleton key. If you know the secret numbers, you can predict the output of the random-number generator after collecting just 32 bytes of its output. To put that in real terms, you only need to monitor one TLS internet encryption connection in order to crack the security of that protocol. If you know the secret numbers, you can completely break any instantiation of Dual_EC_DRBG.


This is important because random number generators are widely used in cryptographic protocols. If the random number generator is compromised, so are the ciphers that use it.

Thanks to the heroic work of Edward Snowden we now know that Dual_EC_DRBG was developed by the NSA, with the backdoor, and given to NIST to disseminate. The scary part is that RSA Security, a company that develops widely used commercial encryption applications, continued use of Dual_EC_DRBG all the way up to the Snowden revelations despite the known flaws. Not surprising this brought a lot of heat on RSA which denies they intentionally created a honeypot for the NSA.

UPDATE: RSA was paid $10 million by the NSA to keep the backdoor in there.

All of this has been known for several months. What I didn’t know until reading Vitalik Buterin’s recent article Satoshi’s Genius: Unexpected Ways in which Bitcoin Dodged Some Crytographic Bullets, is that a variant of an algorithm used in Bitcoin likely also contains a NSA backdoor, but miraculously Bitcoin dodged the bullet.

Bitcoin uses the Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm (ECDSA) for signing transactions. This is how you use your private key to “prove” you own the bitcoins associated with your address. ECDSA keys are derived from elliptic curves that themselves are generated using certain parameters. NIST has been actively recommending that everyone use the secp256r1 parameters because they “are the most secure”. However, there appears to be some funny business with secp256r1 that is eerily similar to the backdoor in Dual_EC_DRBG.

Secp256r1 is supposed to use a random number in generating the curves. The way it allegedly creates this random number is by using a one-way hash function of a “seed” to produce a nothing up my sleeve number. The seed need not be random since the output of the hash function is not predictable. Instead of using a relatively innocuous seed like, say, the number 15, secp256r1 uses the very suspicious looking seed: c49d360886e704936a6678e1139d26b7819f7e90. And like Dual_EC_DRBG, it provides no documentation for how or why this number was chosen.

Now as Vitalik pointed out, even if the NSA knew of a specific elliptic curve with vulnerabilities, it still should have been near impossible for them rig the system due to the fact that brute-forcing a hash function is not feasible. However, if they discovered a flaw that occurred in say, one curve in every billion, then they only need to test one billion numbers to find the exploit.

However, the kicker in all this is that the parameters for secp256r1 were developed by the head of elliptic curve research at the NSA!

The unbelievable thing is that rather than using secp256r1 like nearly all other applications, Bitcoin uses secp256k1 which uses Koblitz curves instead of pseudorandom curves and is still believed to be secure. Now the decision to use secp256k1 instead of secp256r1 was made by Satoshi. It’s a mystery why he chose these parameters instead of the parameters used by everyone else (the core devs even considered changing it!). Dan Brown, Chairman of the Standards for Efficient Cryptography Group, had this to say about it:

I did not know that BitCoin is using secp256k1. Indeed, I am surprised to see anybody use secp256k1 instead of secp256r1.

Just wow! This was either random luck or pure genius on the part of Satoshi. Either way, Bitcoin dodged a huge bullet and now almost seems destined to go on to great things.

https://chrispacia.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/nsa-backdoors-and-bitcoin/
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
How can you even know if somehting is quantum resistant? Seems a computer that powerful will be able to crack anything you put in front of it.

Quantum Computer isn't miracle or magic which can solve any computational problem that exist. Try reading https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/The_Limits_of_Quantum_Computers.pdf.

the spirit of what he's saying is important though. for example, there is an assumption often repeated that unspent P2PKH outputs are quantum resistant because they don't expose the public key. but as pieter wuille points out, this is based on little more than the hope that a hypothetical quantum computer is too slow to steal from unconfirmed transactions.
Quote
One often repeated argument in favor is quantum resistance. I believe this is besides the point. We have no idea what the characteristics of a hypothetical machine relying on yet to be invented technology will be. Given the degree of key reuse on the network (so there are addresses with known public keys), the existence of a system that can break ECDSA is likely a death blow to Bitcoin. A real solution to that is to prepare and have real quantum-resistant cryptography in place before it's too late. Relying on a weird hope that those hypothetical machines are somehow too slow to steal from unconfirmed transactions before they're mined is a red herring.

The main problem here is getting everyone on board for a preventive hardfork. What Peter Wiulle says is common sense, however it has been tested throughout history how common sense doesn't apply when big groups of people are trying to come up with an agreement. Consider that we cannot even reach a consensus on if climate change is going to ruin our entire species or not. A big variety of arguments on a wide scale exists from "the poles are melting soon" to "it's just a hoax". Similarly, I see a similar fate with this: "quantum computers are coming, let's fork now", "quantum computers are useless and cannot get anything of relevancy done, forking Bitcoin is too much of a risk".

My take is that there will be no moves being made only AFTER an actual quantum computer does something that leaves all of us scared shitless, such as moving satoshis coins into your nearest exchanger. Even then, there will be people discussing which is best to move at. I guess the forks will be made and it will be decided through hashrate, hodlers support dumping on each other, services listing one or another fork... until only one survives. This ruling out that one of the forks chooses an alternative to ECDSA/sha-256 that has a bug/exploit and it ends up badly. I would be too unlikely that at least one doesn't survive.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
How can you even know if somehting is quantum resistant? Seems a computer that powerful will be able to crack anything you put in front of it.

Quantum Computer isn't miracle or magic which can solve any computational problem that exist. Try reading https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/The_Limits_of_Quantum_Computers.pdf.

the spirit of what he's saying is important though. for example, there is an assumption often repeated that unspent P2PKH outputs are quantum resistant because they don't expose the public key. but as pieter wuille points out, this is based on little more than the hope that a hypothetical quantum computer is too slow to steal from unconfirmed transactions.
Quote
One often repeated argument in favor is quantum resistance. I believe this is besides the point. We have no idea what the characteristics of a hypothetical machine relying on yet to be invented technology will be. Given the degree of key reuse on the network (so there are addresses with known public keys), the existence of a system that can break ECDSA is likely a death blow to Bitcoin. A real solution to that is to prepare and have real quantum-resistant cryptography in place before it's too late. Relying on a weird hope that those hypothetical machines are somehow too slow to steal from unconfirmed transactions before they're mined is a red herring.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
How can you even know if somehting is quantum resistant? Seems a computer that powerful will be able to crack anything you put in front of it.

it's difficult to speculate on but i don't think it would be fair to assume that once 1 quantum computing problem is solved, every other one magically evaporates. if the bar were set that low, google would have already broken bitcoin.

you bring up a good point though. it's more just a matter of time. (if quantum computing theories are correct, that is)

that's probably the most prudent way to approach this problem.


https://medium.com/@nopara73/stealing-satoshis-bitcoins-cc4d57919a2b
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 6080
Self-proclaimed Genius
What do mean satoshi coins ( Are BTC Test Coins) ?
It's not totally for testing but "to start Bitcoin network" since it need at least one miner to make transactions.
A bit off-topic but... those are the "block rewards" for the earliest blocks that allegedly mined by Satoshi (excluding genesis block),
so it's fair to assume that he had the private keys of those addresses so he can spend it whenever he wants.

To get this topic back on track, the coinbase transaction for those blocks have their public keys displayed.
And when you know the public key, you theoretically can brute-force the private key using a functional Magic Quantum Computer.

Ex.: Reward for block 10 - you can get the public key by getting the output script.
Code:
PUSHDATA(65)[04fcc2888ca91cf0103d8c5797c256bf976e81f280205d002d85b9b622ed1a6f820866c7b5fe12285cfa78c035355d752fc94a398b67597dc4fbb5b386816425dd] CHECKSIG
The hex inside "[]".
full member
Activity: 784
Merit: 100
Don't worry about Bitcoin, a small niche. The world will have BIGGER problems to worry about with the arrival of quantum computers. Hahaha.

The world will be able to fix the quantum issue and implement a quantum secure mode through rewinding, freezing, correcting accounts. But Bitcoin can't and that will lead to forks.


I'm confident that the community will come into consensus to hard fork, if the threat of quantum computers will be the "death of Bitcoin". It will not be close to a debate.

i wouldn't be so sure about that!
we are talking about a major change with a hard fork and it is not like there is only one solution that everyone could jump on board. there is a ton of different things that will cause a ton of drama. for starters which algorithm to choose? and worst of all what to do with coins that won't move such as outputs that were made in early years such as 2009 (naively referred to as Satoshi's coins). should we burn them? you see there is a lot of room for debates.

What do mean satoshi coins ( Are BTC Test Coins) ?  Who has balance until 2009 the balance on the wallets were frozen?
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
~
But it's "fork or die". This isn't a mere "scaling debate", in which Jihan Wu, his cartel of miners, and Silbert's cartel of merchants can play their games. They their play games, then all of us lose.

actually it is more like "don't-fork or die" for those who you named here. we are discussing a switch to a different algorithm to "outrun quantum computers", that includes hash algorithm and consequently the mining algorithm that will effectively brick SHA256-ASICs and make the producing companies obsolete even if for a short period of time until they create NEW-ASICs. they would have more cause to delay it.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Don't worry about Bitcoin, a small niche. The world will have BIGGER problems to worry about with the arrival of quantum computers. Hahaha.

The world will be able to fix the quantum issue and implement a quantum secure mode through rewinding, freezing, correcting accounts. But Bitcoin can't and that will lead to forks.


I'm confident that the community will come into consensus to hard fork, if the threat of quantum computers will be the "death of Bitcoin". It will not be close to a debate.

i wouldn't be so sure about that!
we are talking about a major change with a hard fork and it is not like there is only one solution that everyone could jump on board. there is a ton of different things that will cause a ton of drama. for starters which algorithm to choose? and worst of all what to do with coins that won't move such as outputs that were made in early years such as 2009 (naively referred to as Satoshi's coins). should we burn them? you see there is a lot of room for debates.


But it's "fork or die". This isn't a mere "scaling debate", in which Jihan Wu, his cartel of miners, and Silbert's cartel of merchants can play their games. They their play games, then all of us lose.
copper member
Activity: 2338
Merit: 4543
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1. what happens to quantum-vulnerable outputs? like p2pk and spent addresses that still hold coins. the answer dictates whether lost coins are actually a donation to bitcoin holders as satoshi said. if we do nothing, then he was obviously wrong about that.

I'm afraid I don't have the answer and even if I did, someone else is likely to disagree with it.  Like pooya87 opined, that's likely to be a political melodrama for the ages.


2. the logistics of a fork. take lamport signatures for example. wouldn't it be optimal to do it years before it's a real concern = less people reusing keys as the threat approaches?

Would single use keys make unspent transactions any less vulnerable?  I'm not sure.  Unless all ASIC miners upgrade to quantum ASICs and vast amounts of storage become super cheap and fast, Lamport Signatures are way too cumbersome for the blockchain as we know it today.  But keep in mind that's almost 40 year-old tech.  Long cumbersome algos can be couple with compression/decompression to increase their practical applications.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
Don't worry about Bitcoin, a small niche. The world will have BIGGER problems to worry about with the arrival of quantum computers. Hahaha.

The world will be able to fix the quantum issue and implement a quantum secure mode through rewinding, freezing, correcting accounts. But Bitcoin can't and that will lead to forks.


I'm confident that the community will come into consensus to hard fork, if the threat of quantum computers will be the "death of Bitcoin". It will not be close to a debate.

i wouldn't be so sure about that!
we are talking about a major change with a hard fork and it is not like there is only one solution that everyone could jump on board. there is a ton of different things that will cause a ton of drama. for starters which algorithm to choose? and worst of all what to do with coins that won't move such as outputs that were made in early years such as 2009 (naively referred to as Satoshi's coins). should we burn them? you see there is a lot of room for debates.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 6080
Self-proclaimed Genius
This is worth reading:
Quote
-snip-Quantum-resistant techniques
Quantum computing can be just as effective for cryptographers as it is for hackers. Unobserved, superpositioned particles exist in multiple states, but when detected, they “collapse” to one point in space-time. Quantum cryptography has the same properties; because the protons that make up an encoded transaction shift upon observation, a successful attacker would have to break the laws of physics to intercept it.-snip-
So, this "quantum computing" thing was based on string theory which is mathematically credible but still "not science".
Basically, you need to break the laws of physics to hack a system that breaks the law of physics... hmm, it's not wrong.
A classic supercomputer that can break secp256k1 which can lead to stolen UTXO with "exposed public key" like the #1 in figmentofmyass' list
is more of a reality and maybe just a few years away.

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Don't worry about Bitcoin, a small niche. The world will have BIGGER problems to worry about with the arrival of quantum computers. Hahaha.

The world will be able to fix the quantum issue and implement a quantum secure mode through rewinding, freezing, correcting accounts. But Bitcoin can't and that will lead to forks.


I'm confident that the community will come into consensus to hard fork, if the threat of quantum computers will be the "death of Bitcoin". It will not be close to a debate.

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