Topic: Bitcoin's Usefulness - So utterly apparent - page 2. (Read 9421 times)

Well in that case, I've decided to set off all the alarms by never using a savings account again. Mainly because my checking account pays more interest than the savings.

This limitation was there since forever. The root of it is in the costs of insuring and maintaining the account. I'm kinda thinking that "sudden" probably means "first time in my life that I read the account disclosure booklet. I used to simply throw it away."

One thing that US banking system has figured out exceedingly well is the default and fraud risk on personal accounts. There are so many flags that signal imminent personal bankruptcy, one of them is lack of normal monthly or biweekly budget planning. It manifests itself by too frequent too small withdrawals. The limits are on the quantity of individual withdrawals, not on the total amount withdrawn.

Railing against those limits is akin to railing against higher car insurance rates for unmarried men less than 25 years old. It leads nowhere because it has no wider social support.

Funny So while some want to abandon the penny, they don't bother to abandon it cause they plan to abandon cash completely? Sounds logical to me.

Strange that it is being enforced only recently? I haven't had issues years ago.

Oh shut up, Reg D has been around long before Obama

http://www.bankersonline.com/compliance/guru2010/gurus_comp051710a.html

You're referring to Regulation D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_D_(FRB)

You wanted change, you got it!

What about the sudden implementation of withdrawal limits on savings accounts? Apparently, more than 6 withdrawals from savings per month is some kind of federal reporting trigger, and the bank can and will close your account for exceeding that. I don't recall any such limitation until recently, although I am not sure what law was passed to make that effective. They insist that you use a checking account for frequent transfers instead.

I wonder if there is some backdoor law that allows them to snoop on checking accounts but not savings accounts, and so they decided to make savings accounts less useful. It's strange.

The issue with getting cash isn't a sign banks are going south (cash is a tiny fraction of a banks "assets" and "liabilities").  The amount of cash a bank can get you has no bearing on its solvency.  What the issue does illustrate is the govt (not just US but all govt) attempt to marginalize cash.

This process has been going on for 40+ years.  Ever wonder why there is no bill larger than a $100?    You could get a $100 bill in 1970 yet the largest bill you can get today is still $100 and it only has the purchashing power of <$20 (1970 dollars).  They didn't get rid of the $100 bill in 1970 why isn't there a $500 bill today.

In 1878 you could get cash in a 10,000 bill (there was at one time a 100K bill but it was a rare gold cert oddity so we will ignore it).  Today $10K cash note may seem crazy but remember this was 1878.  $10K in 1878 would be the equivalent of $317,682 today.  

Now the $10K note was pretty rare but lets look at a smaller not which remained in active circulation until 1968; the $500 bill.  Since the $500 bill was discontinued the US govt hasn't discontinued any other bills and the $100 remains the largest bill.   However due to inflation the purchashing power of the largest bill has gone down.   $100 today is the equivalent of $15.14 in 1968.

So in 1968 when they discontinued the $500, they chose to make the largest bill $100, not $50, or $20, or $10.  Limiting largest bill to $10 may seem insane but due to inflation (and not introducing larger bills) that is exactly what the govt has done.   The largest bill today has less purchashing power than a $20 bill when the govt decided to remove the $500 but keep the $100/$50/$20.  The govt doesn't need to remove the $100 bill (and thus cash in general) inflation will eventually make it nearly worthless.  

 It gets worse when you consider most ATM only dispense $20 and many places only accept $20 bills.  $20 today is the equivelent of $3.07 in 1968.  The fact that most places don't give/take bills larger than $20 is as outrageous as a store in 1968 saying "sorry we don't take large bills like $5 got any ones, or maybe a handful of coins".

Had the govt simply stepped in and eliminated a cash there would have been a backlash.  By letting inflation, bank cash limits, ATM denominations, and store policies do the work cash can be eliminated as a functional mechanism of exchange over time.

PNC is not a small bank.  Chase is not a small bank.  In fact, many small banks are doing just fine.  If they aren't they are doing something stupid, or are quietly owned by a large bank who siphons off funds.  This "branding" issue is the only truth to your statement, but it's not hard to figure out if your bank is truly independent.

Your advice for people to take their money out and give it to the big banks is propaganda.  You may believe it's the safest way to hold money, but that's exactly what they want you to think.  These are tough times, but don't just roll over and take it in the ass because you're scared.  The only advantage big banks have over small, independent banks is that people like you think "bigger is safer".  The truth is, many of the large banks (especially the investment banks) are already bankrupt.  They merely have assets on the book "marked to maturity" instead of "marked to market".  This is basically an assumption that by the time they cash in the asset it will be worth more than it is now.  Unless they pull some profits out of their asses in the next few months to a year they are royally screwed.  Some will figure it out, but some will bankrupt.  Either way, the first $250,000 of your deposits should be safe (unless the politicians decide to drop it back to $100,000 right before the crisis, which wouldn't be too surprising) via the FDIC.  Actually, if a big bank goes down, the FDIC will have a much harder time backing the deposits than if a small bank fails.  They will likely figure out a way to pay out (otherwise we will see bankruns that usher in the greatest depression), but with a large bank failure, you will be waiting on your money much longer.

Well, back when I started, I only needed to trust newegg.com do deliver my GPU order.  Those days are past unless they start carrying custom ASICs in the future.  Even then, it would take a big investment in hardware.  So, yes, you would have to trust another service or person, but that person could be a Greek.  If one person took the risk in say Athens, then others could buy from him and be more comfortable since they know where he lives and who his family is.  He would be up shit creek without a paddle if he ran into trouble, but there is a lot of money to be made on exchange fees, so eventually someone will be diligent enough to do it without screwing themselves.

What about when you want to buy bitcoins? You need to trus MtGox, or Intersango or any other service or person, don't you?

Criminality has risen considerably, there are far more break-ins nowadays (both with guns/injuries/death and without) because people started keeping bank notes at home. Keeping money at home is a big NO-NO for me as it is no solution just as converting money to bitcoins isn't a solution either (just as you mention).

Bruno, something like that is happening here as well. You can't get much money out of the bank without a notice. I don't know the exact limit though.

Couldn't a company provide this as a service for a relatively tiny fee?

Customer sends company fiat
Company purchases bitcoin, takes a cut, and puts in cold storage
Customer requests fiat
Company takes bitcoins out of cold storage, sells however many are needed, takes a cut, puts the rest back

Granted, they're still exposed to bitcoin currency risk, but compared to their options...

You swear this is true? I'll have to test it. I ran into an ATM that said it didn't have any money a few weeks ago, I think that just happens from time to time though.

Is this a sign that the banks in the US are going south? I've just withdrawn ~$10,000 USD worth of my local currency last week at a small branch of Citibank and I didn't notice any problems with that.  Most, if not all banks here allow a person to withdraw up to ~$3000 here a day via ATM, and if you need more you can just hit the teller up.
Reminds me to clear my US based bank account next time. 

Ed's was PNC and mine is a Sandwich, IL, local bank. I also bank at Chase, which reminds me to inquire what their new policy is.

~Bruno~

 
 

Wow Phinnaeus.... What banks were they?  I haven't had any issues with mine, but I haven't asked for non electronic withdrawals that large in a while.

(hopefully not an aside)

I feel that something is happening here in the States, but I can't put my finger on it. Over a year ago, I was able to withdraw $10K USD from my bank whenever I wanted. Then I was told that I needed to inform the bank a couple days prior to when I needed said amount. Fast forward a few months, and the maximum I could withdraw at one time with a three day notice was half as much. Fast forward again to a couple weeks ago.

I delivered a load of lumber to Elk Grove Village, IL. The client gave me a $2K USD check and he offered to go to his bank with me to make sure I had no problems cashing it. Since he was a new client, and it would be nice to have the extra cash in my pocket for the next leg of my trip to Wisconsin to purchase more lumber, I didn't refuse.

At the bank, I presented to the teller the check and my state ID (my license is still being held in DeKalb county, IL, due to receiving two tickets at the same time--long story, but suffice to say that a bitch is involved). This has worked every other time that I wanted to cash a check at some unknown bank (not a branch of my bank). But not this time. She wanted to see a credit card. I presented her with one. She said that won't work because it will expire in two months. I presented her with my voter registration card. No joy there either. Then I remembered the ticket I received that resides in my wallet and the officer who gave it to me said that this will now work as your official ID until you get your license back.

It gets better.

She looked at it and stated...wait for it (you won't believe it!)...that that would work, but only if I had presented that form of identification first and the second state ID with my photo on it second. It was now time for Plan D. The guy who wrote me the check, standing next to me the whole time, to step in.

We'll call him Ed, since that is his real first name. Ed hands the teller lady his ID to prove that he was the one who wrote the check to me. The lady asks ED...wait for it..., "What do you want me to do with this?" Ed states he's not sure, but thought that providing solid ID that this issue could somehow be resolved. The teller passes the ID back to Ed and states that that won't work. Bear in mind that this is main bank that Ed banks at and the teller has known Ed for years.

It gets better.

Ed than ask the teller to tell me how much money he currently has in his checking account. The teller states that she can't do that in my presence. He then ask if she could write it down and hand him the piece of paper. She grudgingly does it. Ed shows me the piece of paper. I recall that it was just north of $3,900 USD.

Ed then requests from the teller that he would like to withdraw $2K USD. (wait till I get to the WTF moment) The teller informs Ed that she couldn't do that for there isn't enough money in his account to give him $2K USD. (BTW, that's not the WTF moment) The teller, which is now getting impatient with us over this whole ordeal, probably because there were other customers to take care of (Ed and I were the only customers in the bank), told Ed, IN FRONT OF ME, that he only had $1,900+ in his account. Ed asked how could that be when she just shown to him that he had $3,900+. She stated no he doesn't because of...you guessed it...the $2K USD check that she currently has in her possession bought he balance down to only $1,900+. (that, too, was not the WTF moment)

Ed kindly ask for the check. She replies that she couldn't give it to him because...because...because it belonged to me. I then kindly asked for the check back. She grudgingly hands it over to me. Ed kindly asks me, in front of the teller, may I have the check please. I hand Ed the check. He proceeds to tear it up in tiny pieces in front of the teller. He then re-requests $2K of his money from his bank from a teller that he's known for years and to this day has never, ever had a problem with her or his banking institute. The teller replies with, "I think I need to get the manager."

It gets better.

After she was gone for about 5 minutes (probably telling her side of the story to the (her) manager), she and the manager arrive back to the teller booth. The manager ask, "How may I help you?" I replied with, "We both want a blowjob." (no I didn't, although the thought did cross my mind, along with wanting to fuck both of them in the ass, but I figured at that time that that wouldn't get $2K USD in my hand, so I quickly changed my thoughts to something mundane, like Matthew eating dog or...)

Ed relays what has transpired up to that point, with the manager listening contently. When he was done, the manager said that there was nothing she could do. She could not give Ed his money even though he now had more than enough in his account. Why, Ed asked. (here comes the WTF moment) The manager kindly states that it is their banks policy that any request of $2K USD or more had to be requested 3 days prior to make sure that the bank had enough money on hand for daily operations (almost exact quote). Ed and I looked at each other in shocked at what we just heard. The manager broke the silence by asking if there is anything else she could do for us today. Ed replied with, "Yes. I would like to withdraw $1,900 (USD) from my account." The manager replied with...wait for it..."No problem. Will big bills be fine?" Ed said yes, that that would be fine.

We left the bank 15 minutes later. Why so long, you ask? Well, it seems that the teller didn't even have $1,900 USD in her till and she had to requisition more money from her manager. Not the one that just waited on us, but a different one that was luckily finishing up with a client of her's on the phone. The paper was filled out, handed to that second manager, she leaves, and returns with a big wad of money. The teller sings for it after counting it--twice. She puts the money in her tell. Punches keys on what I believe is a ten-key-adder of some sort. Opens the till and pulls out the same wad of money--all twenties. She informs us that they are limited on big bills, those being the hundred dollar ones.

She counts out $1,900 not once, but twice, all the time punching keys on her right. Now she presents the bills to Ed, counting them again. I count silently with her. When we get close to the end, all three of us realize at the same time that there is now one $20 bill too many. She quickly snatches all the bills back and recounts. Yep! One too many. Recounts the bills three more times, with the last time presenting them to Ed, with the amount adjusted. All is now fine. The teller then ask if there is anything else she could do for us besides sucking both our dicks (I think that bitch was a mind reader). We said no. Thanked her and went outside.

Once outside, Ed hands me all the twenties, apologizes, and wishes me a good day. Wait, what about the other $100 USD Ed still owes me, you ask? (WTF Moment II) He already gave it to me. It was included in all those twenties. You see, when the teller thought she made a one-too-many-twenties-mistake, she thought that she was 4 short, not 1 too many (revisit underlined text above). In her mind, she only thought about that $2K USD total and not the $1.9K USD sum. Don't worry, nobody got away with anything. Ed's account was adjusted accordingly, but done so outside of the bank's new policy.

(WTF Moment III) Two days later, I found myself at my bank to withdraw $3K to pay for some other lumber I was about to purchase. The teller informed me...wait for it...that I could only withdraw $2K USD and only if I gave a 3 day notice. Naturally, I then only requested $1,900 USD, writing a check for the balance to one my suppliers.

All that said above, does anybody here have any idea what the fuck is going on with the banking institute here in the US?

~Bruno~