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Topic: Bitfinex blocks withdraws (Read 712 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
February 12, 2020, 06:03:28 PM
#50
so anybody knows exchange which has funding feature ?  Grin

Binance has a borrowing/lending feature. It's not directly P2P. They act as a market maker, profiting from the bid-ask spread.

Poloniex has a P2P lending market like Bitfinex. A word of warning before you start lending there: Poloniex's taking money from its customers to cover its loss
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 2
February 12, 2020, 09:03:43 AM
#49
so anybody knows exchange which has funding feature ?  Grin
hero member
Activity: 1651
Merit: 863
February 11, 2020, 07:23:12 AM
#48
Quote
I predict they will make an inroad of, ooh, up to 0.00001% in the market.

well lets look Dai: Now 115Mio USD are in Dai, a decentral stable coin. So Dai is already more than 5% size compared to USDT.
Well its February, more will come.
Yes in Tether is more than 2Billion USD. But DAI volume and its advantages are more and more obvious to many traders.
Now with the creation of Neutrino-Stablecoin, Waves is really gaining momentum. Well you can trade several Coins there, not only ETH-token like at
Etherdelta. Sure Trading volume is still low, but we will see. I expect Waves-coin to rise to the Top20 at CMC(now 53).

Even if decentral exchanges still cover only a small portion of all cryptoexchange-market, well 99% of people still use only fiat and only banks and no crypto.
That does not say that you have to follow the crowd...

Anyway I also still use central exchanges when it comes to payout/payin Fiat. But for sure never ever again Bitfinex.
jr. member
Activity: 37
Merit: 1
February 11, 2020, 06:58:00 AM
#47
The year 2020 is the year of the decentral stable coins and the decentral exchanges.

I predict they will make an inroad of, ooh, up to 0.00001% in the market. It's going to be amazing to witness.

People are lazy and stupid in the main. They will go for the easiest spoon fed option 9.9 times out of 10.

Crypto would be a much healthier place if there were less reliance on centralised services. It ain't happening.
Moreover, people are rarely check any feedbacks on services and it is surprisingly easy to find negative feedback on bitfinex.
why bother themselves using it..
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3008
Welt Am Draht
February 11, 2020, 06:53:03 AM
#46
The year 2020 is the year of the decentral stable coins and the decentral exchanges.

I predict they will make an inroad of, ooh, up to 0.00001% in the market. It's going to be amazing to witness.

People are lazy and stupid in the main. They will go for the easiest spoon fed option 9.9 times out of 10.

Crypto would be a much healthier place if there were less reliance on centralised services. It ain't happening.
hero member
Activity: 1651
Merit: 863
February 11, 2020, 03:17:57 AM
#45
The year 2020 is the year of the decentral stable coins and the decentral exchanges.
Everyone is sick of KYC, hassle, hacked exchanges, scams, manipulated central USDT.
Just watch the rise of decentral  Waves-Exchange. No more need for 80% of my exchange needs to use a central exchange that treat you like a dog.
There is a whole decentral banking sector rising, this could take over a huge portion of the up-to-now-not-crypto-financial sector...


Because of their orderbook, Bitfinex makes only sense for whales,  not for small users.
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 2
February 11, 2020, 12:35:04 AM
#44
UPDATE!! i got my funds but still it was annoying..they are letting unverified accounts use the website, once balance appears they come out with KYC.. just feels bad. in addition support was pretty responsive which was the only good thing however this doesn't change the fact that their business style is very invasive and just seems like a setup.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
January 05, 2020, 05:36:35 PM
#43
They can redeem their USDT through Tether or trade it at 1:1 on the secondary market.
The ones who are smart enough to get out now can. The ones who are left holding USDT which is backed up by nothing with no buyers will be left with a 100% loss.

If you asked any Tether customer whether they would prefer a 36% haircut today or a chance to exit at 1:1 any time, they'll take the latter every single time.
It's not at any time, though. They can exit now, sure. Once the courts seize everything Bitfinex have (which I don't think is an unlikely scenario), then they won't be able to exit at all.

The risk of collapse applies to any custodial exchange.
Again agreed, but not many custodial exchanges have already had just shy of a billion dollars seized with ongoing investigations.

You stated that Tether issues (prints) un-backed USDT, and you've implied this is a practice they regularly engage in. No court documents have ever proved either claim.
I don't think we will get definitive proof until it all collapses. What we do now is that the data suggest USDT is printed out of nothing[1], there are court proceedings against them for being suspected of printing USDT out of nothing[2], and they flat out refuse to release an audit proving that they don't print USDT out of nothing. All in all, very untrustworthy.

All the facts point to a one-time hole in Bitfinex's balance sheet that Tether covered with a one-time loan.
Even if that is true, every Tether they have printed since then is not backed up 1-to-1, since they still have a several hundred million dollar hole in their "assets".

Why do you demand audits of Tether and no other exchanges? Why is no one out with their pitchforks digging into possibly insolvency at Bitstamp, Kraken, Coinbase?
I don't use any centralized exchange so I can't really comment, but none of these exchanges are being accused (as far as I am aware) of probably scams as large as Tether.



1 - Is Bitcoin Really Un-Tethered?
Quote
Negative EOM price pressure on Bitcoin in months with large Tether issuance indicates a month-end need for dollar reserves for Tether, consistent with partial reserve backing. Our results are most consistent with the supply-driven hypothesis.
Quote
Rather than demand from cash investors, these patterns are most consistent with the supply-based hypothesis of unbacked digital money inflating cryptocurrency prices

2 - https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.524076/gov.uscourts.nysd.524076.1.0.pdf
Quote
In other words, Tether and Bitfinex purchase bitcoin with fake USDT to draw in momentum investors then cash out by selling it to them for real U.S. dollars.
Quote
In other words, Tether ran its printing press to issue an asset supposedly backed by U.S. dollars at a time it was losing access to U.S. dollar clearing. This makes no sense unless Tether issued unbacked USDT despite its 1:1 guarantee.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
January 05, 2020, 04:16:39 PM
#42
How have they lost money?
Because Tether is insolvent. They are holding USDT, believing it is worth the same amount in USD, when it is not.

They haven't lost money. They can redeem their USDT through Tether or trade it at 1:1 on the secondary market.

Suggesting this is worse for customers than a 36% haircut is simply insane. You obviously aren't putting yourself in their shoes.

Which one is really worse?
I think these ongoing lies and cover-ups surrounding Tether are worse. Not only is it highly unethical, but as I said, at some point it's all going to come crashing down, and the users of Tether will be hit with much larger losses than a 36% haircut.

If you asked any Tether customer whether they would prefer a 36% haircut today or a chance to exit at 1:1 any time, they'll take the latter every single time. You aren't thinking about customers' best interests. You're only thinking about your own sense of ethics.

The risk of collapse applies to any custodial exchange. If Tether were shut down and entered liquidation tomorrow, their customers would be completely screwed regardless of any insolvency. Their money would be locked up for many years and bled dry by the courts.

Honestly, I'm not convinced that Tether has ever been printed out of thin air.
See the following court document:
As of the date I am signing this affidavit, Tether has cash and cash equivalents (short term securities) on hand totaling approximately $2.1 billion, representing approximately 74 percent of the current outstanding tethers.
That Tether does not now keep liquid, cash reserves equal to 100 percent of the outstanding tethers is not only disclosed to customers, but hardly a novel concept. Commercial banks operate under a “fractional reserve” system whereby they keep cash on hand representing only a small fraction of customer deposits
They openly admit that they do not have cash to redeem every Tether, and that they are taking part in a "fractional reserve" system like fiat banks do. This is how banks create money out of nothing in the fiat system, and Tether are doing the same with USDT.

You stated that Tether issues (prints) un-backed USDT, and you've implied this is a practice they regularly engage in. No court documents have ever proved either claim. As far as we can tell, USDT was only ever issued based on real deposits. The "insolvency" arose when Tether made a payment to Bitfinex in exchange for a loan agreement instead of burning the associated USDT.

Do you see the difference? You are painting this picture where Tether is constantly printing fake money and operating in a completely illegitimate way, but there is really no evidence of that. All the facts point to a one-time hole in Bitfinex's balance sheet that Tether covered with a one-time loan. And they didn't issue Tethers to do it. Like I said, nothing I've seen indicates that Tether has ever printed USDT out of thin air, and nothing indicates a pattern of such behavior either.

Sometimes I feel like much of the ire pointed at Tether = people venting about third party trust issues that apply to a whole swathe of other services.
Oh sure, and don't get me wrong here - I dislike all centralized and custodial exchanges, but Tether are a cut above[/i] below the rest.

How so? Huobi and Okcoin were caught operating as shadow banks, using billions of CNY in customer deposits to invest in high yield instruments. In fact, I'm very confident that most exchanges have -- at one time or another -- acted in very illegal ways with customer money.

It's just that nobody cares unless we're talking about Tether. Why do you demand audits of Tether and no other exchanges? Why is no one out with their pitchforks digging into possibly insolvency at Bitstamp, Kraken, Coinbase?

Mark my words: The next few QuadrigCX-type collapses are going to happen while everyone is staring at Tether.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
January 05, 2020, 08:16:38 AM
#41
How have they lost money?
Because Tether is insolvent. They are holding USDT, believing it is worth the same amount in USD, when it is not. We know this because of the court records which admit that Tether is not backed up 1-to-1 with USD anymore.

Which one is really worse?
I think these ongoing lies and cover-ups surrounding Tether are worse. Not only is it highly unethical, but as I said, at some point it's all going to come crashing down, and the users of Tether will be hit with much larger losses than a 36% haircut.

Honestly, I'm not convinced that Tether has ever been printed out of thin air.
See the following court document:
Sometimes I feel like much of the ire pointed at Tether = people venting about third party trust issues that apply to a whole swathe of other services.
Oh sure, and don't get me wrong here - I dislike all centralized and custodial exchanges, but Tether are a cut above below the rest.
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
January 05, 2020, 08:11:54 AM
#40
The fact is, there were no victims in this case. No one lost any value. Withdrawals are operational at Bitfinex and Tether and the USDT dollar peg is holding perfectly fine.
They did, though. Many people are still holding, trading, and using USDT under the mistaken assumption that it is backed up 1-to-1 with USD. We know that isn't the case, and that only some of it is backed up with a variety of unspecified "assets". If many people tried to convert their USDT back to USD, there would essentially be a bank run and many people would end up losing value.

Instead of openly haircutting Bitfinex users and issuing debt tokens, they have instead secretly haircutted Tether holders.

Didn't the $1 Billion raised in their private token sale cover the insolvency?
The self-loan from freshly printed Tether came first. My understanding was that the $1 billion raised in useless token sales was to pay back the loan they made to themselves.

Anyway, the market -- and their customers -- don't seem to care. That's really what matters. Tether was proven to be insolvent and the market simply didn't care. In fact, the market injected another $1.3 billion into Tether over the next several months.
I agree with you here, but I think that's a massive problem. Tether can't continue being printed out of thin air with no backup indefinitely. At some point, the whole system will come crashing down, and people holding USDT will suffer massively. With the creation and rise of several other stablecoins, there isn't really a good reason to continue using Tether.

I think something like printing more Tether should not be allowed anyway.
It is pure shilling in huge amounts.
Gov's regulations should come in short and prevent everything like this to happen
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
January 04, 2020, 07:54:02 PM
#39
The fact is, there were no victims in this case. No one lost any value. Withdrawals are operational at Bitfinex and Tether and the USDT dollar peg is holding perfectly fine.
They did, though. Many people are still holding, trading, and using USDT under the mistaken assumption that it is backed up 1-to-1 with USD.

How have they lost money?

If many people tried to convert their USDT back to USD, there would essentially be a bank run and many people would end up losing value.

Aside from very short-lived episodes, that hasn't happened. I would argue that the 2016 haircut -- a discreet 36% loss to every single customer -- was much more damaging. I really don't see any comparison.

Instead of openly haircutting Bitfinex users and issuing debt tokens, they have instead secretly haircutted Tether holders.

That gets back to my original question: Which one is really worse?

Didn't the $1 Billion raised in their private token sale cover the insolvency?
The self-loan from freshly printed Tether came first. My understanding was that the $1 billion raised in useless token sales was to pay back the loan they made to themselves.

Not that this matters, but technically they didn't print Tether to make the loan. Bitfinex was insolvent, Tether loaned existing funds to Bitfinex, and Tether therefore became insolvent.

My point is that they swiftly raised the funds required to plug the insolvency and restore market confidence -- which is really the paramount concern of Bitfinex and Tether customers. Bank runs, haircuts and bankruptcies all seem like considerably worse outcomes.

I agree with you here, but I think that's a massive problem. Tether can't continue being printed out of thin air with no backup indefinitely. At some point, the whole system will come crashing down, and people holding USDT will suffer massively.

Honestly, I'm not convinced that Tether has ever been printed out of thin air. I think Bitfinex and Tether have ridiculous legal conflict of interest issues, and I think they operate in a very shady and borderline criminal manner, but after years of watching this drama I just don't buy that claim.

USDT holders are of course exposed to third party custodial risk -- doubly so if they are storing it on an exchange. And yes, the bigger Tether gets the more people it will hurt when it comes crashing down. But that's true of any custodial service -- just ask Mt. Gox customers.

Sometimes I feel like much of the ire pointed at Tether = people venting about third party trust issues that apply to a whole swathe of other services. For some reason, people like to hyper focus on Tether simply because there is transparent blockchain data to point at. When it comes to regular custodial exchanges, no even thinks to ask about an audit.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
January 04, 2020, 08:05:23 AM
#38
The fact is, there were no victims in this case. No one lost any value. Withdrawals are operational at Bitfinex and Tether and the USDT dollar peg is holding perfectly fine.
They did, though. Many people are still holding, trading, and using USDT under the mistaken assumption that it is backed up 1-to-1 with USD. We know that isn't the case, and that only some of it is backed up with a variety of unspecified "assets". If many people tried to convert their USDT back to USD, there would essentially be a bank run and many people would end up losing value.

Instead of openly haircutting Bitfinex users and issuing debt tokens, they have instead secretly haircutted Tether holders.

Didn't the $1 Billion raised in their private token sale cover the insolvency?
The self-loan from freshly printed Tether came first. My understanding was that the $1 billion raised in useless token sales was to pay back the loan they made to themselves.

Anyway, the market -- and their customers -- don't seem to care. That's really what matters. Tether was proven to be insolvent and the market simply didn't care. In fact, the market injected another $1.3 billion into Tether over the next several months.
I agree with you here, but I think that's a massive problem. Tether can't continue being printed out of thin air with no backup indefinitely. At some point, the whole system will come crashing down, and people holding USDT will suffer massively. With the creation and rise of several other stablecoins, there isn't really a good reason to continue using Tether.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
January 04, 2020, 07:10:54 AM
#37
What would you have expected Bitfinex to do in that situation?
Be honest with their users and the community would be a good start. "The Fed has seized $850 million, we are fighting to get it back, and in the meantime we will set up a structured plan to use our profits to replace the losses" or something similar.

That's exactly what they did after getting hacked in 2016. Much of their customer base was naturally disgruntled about getting their balances haircut and being issued USD-denominated debt tokens valued lowly by the market. Not to mention that in common law countries (including the US), that haircut was likely very illegal, which may have played a role in this decision.

The fact is, there were no victims in this case. No one lost any value. Withdrawals are operational at Bitfinex and Tether and the USDT dollar peg is holding perfectly fine.

The same cannot be said for the case where balances were haircut and debt tokens issued. If you wanted to immediately liquidate, you had to lock in large losses. If you wanted to wait for repayment, you had to lock your capital into USD-denominated debt instead of bitcoins. That made for a market full of victims.

That's what I mean about protecting Bitfinex and Tether customer interests. They are better off today than if Bitfinex acted strictly by the books -- which probably would have entailed bankruptcy.

They essentially have haircutted customer balances, as everyone currently holding Tether now holds less value than they did before as Tether is no longer backed up.

Didn't the $1 Billion raised in their private token sale cover the insolvency?

Anyway, the market -- and their customers -- don't seem to care. That's really what matters. Tether was proven to be insolvent and the market simply didn't care. In fact, the market injected another $1.3 billion into Tether over the next several months.

They may be shady and unprofessional, but they made this entire problem disappear extremely quickly. If the alternatives were a replay of the 2016 Bitfinex hack or the Mt. Gox bankruptcy proceedings, I prefer the route already taken. I think most users exposed to Bitfinex and Tether counterparty risk would agree with me.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
January 04, 2020, 06:01:48 AM
#36
What would you have expected Bitfinex to do in that situation?
Be honest with their users and the community would be a good start. "The Fed has seized $850 million, we are fighting to get it back, and in the meantime we will set up a structured plan to use our profits to replace the losses" or something similar. Not print $700 million Tether out of thin air, back it up with nothing, and then loan it to themselves. They essentially have haircutted customer balances, as everyone currently holding Tether now holds less value than they did before as Tether is no longer backed up. If everyone tried to cash out their Tether, they wouldn't be able to. Bitfinex have just shrouded it in loans and ICO launches and other shady behavior so half the people using Tether don't even realize it isn't worth what they claim.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
January 02, 2020, 05:03:38 PM
#35
To me this looks like bitfinex is no more liquid.
It's something I've suspected for a long time (although they would obviously never confirm it). The whole business surrounding Tether, where they slowed moved from "backed up 1-to-1 with USD" through ever more loose definitions before finally arriving at "some of it is backed up with a variety of unspecified assets, including future loan repayments on a loan we made to ourselves, maybe", should alone be enough to make anyone wary of them.

The elephant in the room is the $850 million that law enforcement seized from Bitfinex.

I'm not trying to defend Bitfinex/Tether but I really wonder, what would you have expected Bitfinex to do in that situation? Enter bankruptcy proceedings like Mt. Gox? Haircut customer balances to account for the losses?

It seems like they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. What was the best course of action to protect Bitfinex and Tether customer interests?
hero member
Activity: 1651
Merit: 863
January 02, 2020, 12:54:30 PM
#34
I wrote here, what I did.
I explained them everything and brought the evidence that I could.
It did not always match, what they wanted to see.
There was plenty of writing back and fourth, and in the end, after 1 month and maybe 30 emails, they let me withdraw.
Actually I could also never say, where I got exact this coins, because I only deposit and Withdraw crypto, and used Finex only for buying/selling into USDT.
But fortunately I could show screenshots from another exchange, where I bought a ton of BTC 2014 with euros.

Anyway I had a quite big volume. But just only during the ransom time, I lost big because BTC was falling.
I neved had to show notar signed statements, but finex even asked me about my income, my bankaccounts and how much euros i have and earn.
About my profession. If I remember well, they also asked for taxdeclarations of my past!
INCREDIBLE!!!
Simply asking that amount of very private informations, would bring any european companys CEO into jail! This is not KYC. This is RANSOM and pure illegal!!!
Its against all data-protection-laws, at least in Europe.

A clear sign that they dont show good will, is that they let you deposit and trade, but they block when you want to withdraw ;-)

In addition to not use Bitfinex anymore, I strongly recommend not to use Tether too!!!
If you only trade in BTC/Altcoins, you should use something like waves https://waves.exchange/
If you want to go to fiat temporarily, use any ETH dex, but waves now also provides a stablecoin: usd-n.
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 2
January 02, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
#33
I was able to proof anything they asked for, so after a long struggle they let me withdraw and closed my Account.
Actually I could not show that I bought the SAME coins before I sent them to Bitfinex,
but I could proof that I bought 2014 much more coins(at a lower price) at another exchange, paying from my bankaccount.
Half year ago finex did not yet ask for Notar signed documents.
One possible reason for this ransomholding of users coins might also be,
all big exchanges now use blockanalysis for to check the origin.
And almost ALL coins had once been in the darknet, even if it had been 3years and 25 transactions before.
So almost NOBODY is safe , the red alert can be on on virtual everyone.

To me this looks like bitfinex is no more liquid.
Withdraw everything as long as you can...

Mr. relax can i pm you buddy, about the steps i should follow maybe you can give some usefull information Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
January 02, 2020, 07:16:15 AM
#32
To me this looks like bitfinex is no more liquid.
It's something I've suspected for a long time (although they would obviously never confirm it). The whole business surrounding Tether, where they slowed moved from "backed up 1-to-1 with USD" through ever more loose definitions before finally arriving at "some of it is backed up with a variety of unspecified assets, including future loan repayments on a loan we made to ourselves, maybe", should alone be enough to make anyone wary of them. The fact that they printed $700 million Tether out of thin air without proving it was backed up by anything, and then "loaned" it to themselves, is outright scammy. Or their ICO launch of a useless token which was only done to cover their losses.

Plenty of exchanges in the past have used unannounced and invasive KYC to force users to choose to either upload their documents or forfeit their coins, and then just kept whatever coins aren't claimed. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Bitfinex does the same, but given how scammy they are, no one should be trusting them with their documents (or their coins, but if people followed that advice then they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place).
hero member
Activity: 1651
Merit: 863
January 02, 2020, 05:47:08 AM
#31
I was able to proof anything they asked for, so after a long struggle they let me withdraw and closed my Account.
Actually I could not show that I bought the SAME coins before I sent them to Bitfinex,
but I could proof that I bought 2014 much more coins(at a lower price) at another exchange, paying from my bankaccount.
Half year ago finex did not yet ask for Notar signed documents.
One possible reason for this ransomholding of users coins might also be,
all big exchanges now use blockanalysis for to check the origin.
And almost ALL coins had once been in the darknet, even if it had been 3years and 25 transactions before.
So almost NOBODY is safe , the red alert can be on on virtual everyone.

To me this looks like bitfinex is no more liquid.
Withdraw everything as long as you can...
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